28 year old female with spotty academic record

Nontraditional Premed Discussion
1

Hello! Thank you for reading this message. I hope you can handle one more “low grades” profile from yet another member. I have tried to seek help from pre-medical advisors all over the country but the majority of those I have contacted through phone and email have simply sent me a brief, generic email in response telling me “to go to a post-bacc program.” The problem is, I don’t qualify for post-bacc programs geared towards non-science majors and I also am not a candidate to pursue graduate coursework in the sciences with such an incomplete foundation in the basic sciences.


I graduated with a B.S in Anthropology in 2002 from UCLA. I left during my second year of undergraduate work and attended community college for two years before returning to UCLA. During my time at the CC, I received the following grades in these science classes:


Between Fall of 1999 and Spring of 2000:


General Chemistry I – Letter grade A


General Chemistry II – Letter grade B


Physics I – Letter grade B


Physics II – Letter Grade B


Calculus 2 – Letter Grade B


(On a side note, I took Calculus I right after high school at a different community college in 1997, garnering a C.)


When I returned to UCLA in 2001, I took four quarters of Life Science, which is the equivalent of two semesters of Biology. My Life Science grades at UCLA were:


Between Winter 2001 and Fall 2001:


Life Science 1 (Evolution, Ecology and Biodiversity ) – Letter Grade C+


Life Science 2 (Cells, Tissues, and Organs ) – Letter Grade C


Life Science 3 (Introduction to Molecular Biology ) – Letter Grade C-


Life Science 4 (Genetics) – Letter Grade D


And then I attempted the first quarter of Organic Chemistry two times at UCLA:


Spring - Summer 2002


(First attempt) Organic Chemistry 1 – Letter Grade F


(Second attempt) Organic Chemistry – Letter Grade C-


So as you can see, I have taken nearly all of the pre-requisites except for the last two quarters of Organic Chemistry. But I received frightful grades in half of those pre-reqs.


My questions are:

  1. It has been an average of 6 years since my last science course – should I retake ALL of them, even the ones in which I received A’s and B’s?

  2. My Chemistry and Physics grades are not bad, so I suppose I don’t necessarily need to retake them. Yet, how can I jump into O chem WITHOUT retaking G Chem after a 7 year gap? Do you recommend I retake a course in which I received a decent grade in if it means preparing myself for the next course in the sequence (in this case, O chem.)?

  3. Should I retake Calculus I since it has been 10 years since I last took it (and received a C in when I took it in 1997)?

  4. And what of my one quarter of Organic Chem I, which I took two times 5 years ago, both times with bad grades? Do I retake it a THIRD time?? Clearly I must retake it if I am to prepare myself for the second and third quarter of O Chem, isn’t that right?

  5. Shall I completely retake Biology?


    My problem is that one advisor told me NOT to bother retaking ANY of my pre-reqs and just to take upper division courses instead to show the medical schools I can handle the advanced workload. I see the logic in that except for the fact that I couldn’t possibly enroll in any upper division science courses when it has been so long since I took Math, Biology, and Chemistry. To retake some of those pre-reqs would only make sense, even though I did receive A’s and B’s in Physics and G Chem, wouldn’t it? Yet, this pre-med counselor advised against this. What classes should I retake then, if any?


    Thank you in advance for taking the time to read this. I truly would appreciate it if anyone out there could assist me with this. I have been very discouraged because it has been hard to find anyone who will just lay it out for me and tell me exactly what I should and shouldn’t retake. I don’t know how successful I would be at a formal post-bacc program because the ones geared towards science majors immediately throw you into the upper division science courses (which I am not prepared for) and the post-bacc programs that focus on non-science majors will not let you apply if you have taken the majority of the pre-med requirements, which I have, albeit with terrible grades. I have been in search of some real, tangible guidance so if there are any kind souls out there, please do get in touch with me.


    Thank you in advance for all of your help - I truly appreciate it.


    -Pauline
2

Pauline -


I definitely think you should retake the biology courses. As you pointed out, you didn’t do THAT well in them, and you don’t feel you have the foundation to do well in upper level courses without it. Since most of the upper levels you will want to take will probably be biology related, it makes sense to retake them.


The physics and gen chem are a crap shoot. The one danger you run into with them is they are among your oldest classes. Some schools have requirements that your pre-reqs not be any more than 7 - 10 years old (varies by school). By the time you retake/finish your other pre-reqs, take some upper levels and apply, they will be nearly 10 years old. Some schools will simply say we “prefer” that they not be any older than X years, but unless you have a recent science background (a masters or phd) or totally rock the MCAT, the “prefer” generally means “require”.


I wouldn’t worry too much about the calculus. Not that many schools require calculus, and those that do probably won’t be that concerned about the age of it likme they will about the other pre-reqs.


I think if it were me, I would retake them all AND then take some upper level courses. Two reasons - one, the age. Two - it will make sure you have a good foundation in them for the MCAT. Depending on your personal situation (school full time, finances, etc), you could probably handle physics, gen chem and biology at the same time, since you already took gen chem and bio. Then, while you are taking organic, take some upper levels. You can also take some upper levels during the application year (there is a spot to indicate this on your application).


You also need to figure out why you struggle so much with organic. If you take organic for a third time and don’t do any better than a C, that will not help your cause.


Do you have any medical schools in your area? If so, make appointments with the admissions office, take your transcript along and see what THEY say. I’ll be honest, many pre-med advisors don’t have any idea what med schools want when it comes to non-trads, especially non-trads who didn’t do so hot the first time around. I found that the med school admissions people were much more helpful at telling me what I needed to do to get in than the pre-med advisors. Some of the pre-med advisors couldn’t tell me any more than “take these courses and do well in them”.


So - just my opinion. Take it for what it’s worth. See what some others have to say and some med schools and go from there.


Good luck.

3

Thanks very much for your input, Emergency. As far as why I did so poorly in O Chem and Biology, I didn’t have a healthy amount of self-esteem as a young girl and was scared. What if I did my best and my best still wasn’t good enough? On a subconscious level, it was easier to say I failed because I didn’t try rather than to find out I failed because my best wasn’t good enough. I know these are all foolish excuses, but a total lack of confidence in my abilities as a youth contributed to my poor grades. None of which these medical schools will care about, I know. Emergency, thank you for taking the time to write. Your advice was very helpful.


-Pauline

4
  • etc1007 Said:
Thanks very much for your input, Emergency. As far as why I did so poorly in O Chem and Biology, I didn't have a healthy amount of self-esteem as a young girl and was scared. What if I did my best and my best still wasn't good enough? On a subconscious level, it was easier to say I failed because I didn't try rather than to find out I failed because my best wasn't good enough. I know these are all foolish excuses, but a total lack of confidence in my abilities as a youth contributed to my poor grades. None of which these medical schools will care about, I know. Emergency, thank you for taking the time to write. Your advice was very helpful.

-Pauline



Foolish, perhaps, but you're not alone - my logic was much the same. Understanding that has been one step to helping me move forward.

The best advice, I expect, is to speak directly with medical schools and see what they have to say. With that in mind, my 2c are similar to Emergency!'s:

Take your time and do it right. Go through the important and foundation stuff (Bio, Chem, etc), but don't sweat Calculus as much.

Once you've mastered the basics - or at the same time, if it works for you - take upper-level coursework as well to prove it. I suspect that even poor grades in organic can be made up for by great later grades in organic and biochem. Of course, if your organic challenges are due to more than our mutual fallacy, you'll want to fix that as well, and perhaps modify your study skills. For instance, I'd never really done flash cards for rote memorization prior to OChem, but I found that they helped me test myself.

And don't hurry the MCAT - take your coursework, prepare as you need, and take it when you're good and ready. Few things say "I can do this" like a stellar score on the MCAT, and taking it unprepared is probably not condusive to that.

Of course, this all my take on things; I may be wrong, and YMMV. Regardless - welcome .
5

Thanks for the welcome.


I’m afraid I’m feeling very discouraged. I contacted some medical schools directly as you suggested and asked the same questions I posted in this email thread. So far two medical schools have responded saying that “they could not advise” me on this because retaking these classes is a personal decision. EVERY QUESTION I asked was met with “Cannot advise. Personal decision.”


I just don’t want to spend two and a half years of my life retaking these classes if this is not the right way to repair my academic past. I’ve been told by one advisor NOT to retake any of these classes and to simply jump into some upper level coursework - but how do I jump into graduate level work without a strong foundation in the basics? Is retaking these classes the right thing to do?


I’m just afraid to stop work and retake all of these classes only to find out it wasn’t what I should have done. Even advisors from post-bacc programs haven’t offered any advice.


At any rate, I do thak you for taking the time to write, pi1304. I just wish I weren’t feeling so discouraged.

6
  • Quote:
I'm afraid I'm feeling very discouraged. I contacted some medical schools directly as you suggested and asked the same questions I posted in this email thread. So far two medical schools have responded saying that "they could not advise" me on this because retaking these classes is a personal decision. EVERY QUESTION I asked was met with "Cannot advise. Personal decision."

I just don't want to spend two and a half years of my life retaking these classes if this is not the right way to repair my academic past. I've been told by one advisor NOT to retake any of these classes and to simply jump into some upper level coursework - but how do I jump into graduate level work without a strong foundation in the basics? Is retaking these classes the right thing to do?

I'm just afraid to stop work and retake all of these classes only to find out it wasn't what I should have done. Even advisors from post-bacc programs haven't offered any advice.



I would say you have been given some questionable advice. You have to get really good grades on your bio, chem, and physics to be a competitive candidate. If I were you I would retake all the classes. What you really need now is a clean slate. Also, it's very helpful to have taken the courses quite recently. Five years is a long time in biology--the field is advancing at a stunning pace. What you need are a bunch of fresh, recent courses that you have done well in, to demonstrate that your problems of the past are over and you're on track. Many of us have been in the same boat so please don't feel you are alone.

You are going to want good MCAT scores as well, and recent coursework in the basic sciences is going to help that; you don't want to be dredging up your biology and physics from 6 or 7 years ago on that test. Retake the basic classes, take a couple of upper levels like biochemistry and genetics, and take a good MCAT prep class like Kaplan about 3/4 of the way through--they'll give you practice exams so you can gauge your progress and make an informed decision as to when to take the actual MCAT. Allow yourself 2-3 years to do it right.

As a side note, osteopathic schools really give you a break; they let you substitute new, good grades for bad, old ones.

Keep posting and reading here, work hard, and chart a steady and methodical course and you'll get there. Best of luck,
7

Thanks, ttraub. I just needed to hear that retaking my classes was the right thing to do because I always believed medical schools do not accept applicants who have retaken their prerequisites.


Can someone tell me how many additional upper level science courses I should take beyond retaking me prerequisities? Has anyone been in this similar situation with a science GPA as low as mine in which he/she retook ALL of their prerequisities and was accepted into medical school?



8

Given the age of your pre-reqs, re-taking them is definitely the right thing to do. That way, there will be no question that your knowledge is recent and up-to-date. Having recent pre-reqs will also help considerably with MCAT preparation. As Terry pointed out, retaking them will also help your GPA if you apply to osteopathic schools. Plus, as you pointed out, you need a good foundation in these to do well in upper level and/or graduate level coursework.


I can’t help you with how many upper level courses to take. (Hopefully someone who has done that can). I know it varies - some people have been known to do a whole second degree, usually if their original undergrad GPA was <2.0. I don’t think that is necessary in your case. Some good courses to take include anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, microbiology and immunology. Some med schools have biochemistry pre-reqs (more and more it seems) and many of them highly recommend some or all of those courses.


It’s too bad that the medical schools you talked to weren’t very helpful. I found talking to admissions counselors at a couple of different schools to be very helpful.


Good luck.

9

I’ve contacted several medical schools through email and no response as of yet.


As I posted earlier, I received A’s and B’s in General Chemistry and Physics 7 years ago at a community college; would it be best not to retake these courses but simply to audit them and then go straight into Organic Chemistry for credit? It seems unnecessary to retake G Chem and Physics for grades when I did “ok” in them the first time around, albeit 7 years ago. Any thoughts?

10

I doubt it is necessary to take G-chem or physics over again if you earned As and Bs just seven years ago. Unlike biology, gen-chem and physics are pretty much the same animal now as they were then.

11

You need to check with the schools you want to apply to and ensure that your courses will not expire.


If they do, you’ll have to take them again with a grade.

12

I feel terrible. An admissions coordinator from a medical school in texas just told me it will be too difficult to recover from grades such as mine. She said applicants typically have a 3.79 GPA and a 29 MCAT and that retaking my courses would not be helpful or beneficial. At this point, I would be “taking years to catch up and even then I would not be as competitive as the other applicants.” I know I can’t let one negative response discourage me, but it’s just a hard slap on the wrist when I’m already feeling so lost. Maybe she’s right, maybe it is nearly impossible to recover from those types of grades.

13

Hi all - I realize I became too easily discouraged. One negative response should not knock me down this hard. I’ll keep going at any rate.

14

You simply can’t believe everything you hear, even from the mouth of an “admissions coordinator”. Did she state that every single student at their school got a minimum 3.79 GPA and 29 MCAT? I rather doubt that. That might be the average, meaning some higher and some lower.


There are people getting into allopathic schools with lower scores than these, though admittedly they’re not getting a free ride. They need to prove to the schools that they’re really motivated, they can do it, and they’ve fixed past mistakes. Allopathic schools are famous for raising the bar and giving you imposing, even condescending responses to questions to make you feel intimidated. News flash: this is just the beginning. People will be intimidating you right through residency. You need a thick skin, a sense of purpose, and the wherewithal to pursue that purpose.


There’s a great quote floating around on someone’s signature, something that Teddy Roosevelt said–ah, I found it:

  • Quote:
"It's not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or when the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement; and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."



Remember--if you really want this, you'll get it, but you will need to put in the time and effort necessary to make it a reality. Prove that admissions coordinator wrong by getting in to her school or elsewhere. Good luck,
15

Don’t take it so personally. She is right in that it will be very difficult (or impossible) to significantly raise your GPA. However, keep in mind that the numbers she spouted out are AVERAGES. In order to get an average, you must have lower and higher scores. Some schools do have cut-off criteria (i.e., they automatically reject anyone with less than a 3.0 GPA or they rarely interview someone with less than a 30 MCAT, etc).


So - why should you retake your classes if it won’t help you? As mentioned before the age of your pre-reqs is a factor. Retaking them will eliminate any barriers at schools that might reject you because of the age of your pre-reqs. Secondly, you stated you don’t feel prepared to take upper level classes. Thus, you either need to retake the pre-reqs or do some significant self-study to be able to take upper level courses. Additionally, retaking them will help you prepare for the MCAT. Third, from my perspective - retaking all of your pre-reqs and doing well in them does a couple of things. It establishes that you are serious in pursuing this path and doing everything you can to show you are capable. It also establishes (assuming you do very well) a track record of recent good grades.


If this is really what you want - don’t let comments such as hers stop you from trying. I imagine she was just trying to be realistic and not give you a sense of false hope. She’s making you perfectly aware of what you must do to be competitive at their school. Since the GPA is out of the question for you, that means you need to build an outstanding application in other areas - recent good grades, letters of recommendation, a good MCAT, a well rounded background of volunteer work and outside interests. That is all you can do. From a numbers standpoint, you will always be “less competitive”. But, there are a number of intangible factors that are considered by admissions committees. GPAs and MCATs are just one part of that package.


If you really want this you CAN do it. Some schools may forever out of reach for you due to GPA. But, the vast majority will look at recent good grades. My original ugrad GPA was a 2.78. Even after taking all my pre-reqs, my overall GPA only went up to a 3.1 (Average at my school 3.72).


Do the best you can from here on out. Consider osteopathic schools (which are typically more forgiving) and a wide range of medical schools. There is no question that you have much work to do in order to become a competitive candidate and that in some areas, you may never truly become “competitive”. But, you CAN do it. You just have to determine the best path to take in order to reach your goal.

16

Thank you, ttraub and Emergency. Your words mean the world to me. You are right in that I need to start developing a thicker skin from this moment forward. I have many, many things I must work on - it seems the academic portion is just one of the daunting factors. I also need to be able to overcome adversity and show these schools that it’s not why I fell, but how I picked myself up. Sometimes the hill seems so high I don’t know how to begin climbing. But I cannot continuously be taking three steps forward, two steps back. I will remember your words if the ever fear tries to force itself back onto me.

17

One thing that I never considered; Although my community college courses were transferred over to UCLA, the community college grades were never factored into my 2.87 GPA from UCLA. My community college GPA (the classes I took when I left UCLA for two years before returning) is 3.6 - can I average these two GPA’s in applying to medical school? Meaning, is my true undergraduate GPA actually 3.2?

18

AMCAS or AOMCAS will calculate your GPA. But, they should count your CC classes that you transferred towards your GPA. I’m not sure if they will exactly “average” the two - it will depend on how many hours you earned at each school. Assuming the number of hours at each school is similar, your overall undergrad GPA should be close to that, though.

19

I appreciate this, thanks, Emergency! This is very good news. That means there’s a chance I’m starting with an undergraduate GPA of over 3.0 - I won’t automatically be rejected by schools who refuse consideration to applicants with a GPA < 3.0! With some exceptional hard work, my post-bacc classes, should I do very well in them, can scootch this a notch higher, maybe from a 3.2 to a 3.3? We’ll see!

20

Because you are right on the inside of most schools’ time limits for pre-reqs, your case is more complex than some others (whose classes are either recent or expired). This is probably part of why you’re getting fudge-the-difference answers from med schools. I also think that you’ve got a far distance to go to prove yourself, which you already know; it may take you part of that distance to get the credibility and confidence you’ll need to have constructive conversations with med school folks.


Because of all of this, you may want to consider Judy Colwell’s services. She posts here at oldpremeds from time to time, has been an advertiser in the past, and also is a much-appreciated regular at the annual OldPreMeds conferences. She used to work in the Stanford admissions office and now advises many pre-meds, both undergrads and many non-traditional students. She will probably help you to get realistic and concrete about strategies to make your application as excellent as possible. (Fair disclosure: I have never used Judy’s services, but have seen her at an OPM conference and met with her informally while already in the med school application process. She is the only person I know of who occupies this niche of specializing in coaching us geezers–might be others, but I’d expect them to have been mentioned or to have posted here.)


Second, it sounds like you’re already aware that emotional issues were part of your earlier academic problems. The pre-med and medical school process are stressful enough that they tend to knock us back to our emotional worst from time to time. To make sure you can be resilient in the face of old demons, consider how you can get support and/or help continuing to locate where those demons came from and figure out how to evict them from your life. Given your past tactics of self-sabotage you are going to need very very strong support to avoid a repeat.


Finally, make sure that you’ve really honestly assessed the reasons for your past failures: is it really all emotional? Are there types of learning you find difficult that you might need extra coaching for, and/or diagnostic testing for learning disabilities? Do you find it difficult to do work you’re not interested in? Getting the answers to these questions in addition to the emotional issues will be important for you.


This will be a long road, but you are young and you have plenty of time. Make sure to take as much time as you need to do it right. There are second chances in this process, and occasionally even third chances, but at some point you can sabotage yourself into near-complete impossibility. Don’t let that happen.


Good luck


joe