59 and considering Medical School

Nontraditional Premed Discussion
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  • DrQuinn Said:
I am sorry to have to enter a comment in such absolute dis - agreement with some else's post (and I sincerely fo not wish to offend nor violate any term of use) but . . .

Do Not Let Anyone Tell You To Give Up!

Challenge Discrimination Courageously! Politely but forthrightly. But do not expect failure or let anyone else create their expectation for you.



Dr Quinn,

In all fairness to the above posters, I didn’t get the impression that anyone was discriminating against the OP, nor did I get the impression that anyone was telling the OP to give up. I was left with the impression that the other posters were encouraging introspection before setting down this long, expensive, sometimes exasperating road at such an advanced age. There’s a big difference between someone who’s 59 and about to hit the ‘submit’ button on their primaries versus someone who’s 59 and still has years worth of pre-med pre-reqs, MCAT, and all of their associated demands and expenses lying ahead of them. The advice and opinions for the former would’ve probably bore a more encouraging tone. But for all we know, this OP is years away from even reaching this point in the process, assuming there were no unexpected delays and unlimited financial resources were available to him – a mighty big assumption! He could theoretically be close to 70 in the off chance he was to be accepted.

I think anyone entering medicine at such an age needs to reexamine how they want to spend their old age and whether or not the sacrifices they will make in terms of time, energy, and, most importantly, money are worth the return on their investment. Only the OP can decide this for himself, but the rest of us would be doing him a great disservice if we didn’t point out some of the downsides. It’s one thing to work till you die because you’re healthy and love what you do, but it’s another thing entirely to work till you die because you’re forced to do so due to a mountain of debt hanging over your head. The latter scenario sets the OP up for a potentially very miserable way to kick off what should be his “golden years”. I know medicine is all about altruism, but it is also very much a selfish pursuit. Before the OP sets off down this road, he needs to decide what’s really in his own long-term best interest. Does he want to give up fishing trips with the grandkids and cruises with the spouse in exchange for night-float & on-call? Does he want to reverse mortgage his (and his spouse’s) home and blow through his life savings and/or pension for the life of a starving student, intern, resident, fellow? Does he want to give up a comfortable position on life’s totem pole that’s taken a lifetime to achieve in exchange for a very uncertain future with attendings half his age barking orders at him while the rest of his peers are entering retirement? If the OP can sincerely answer yes to these questions and cannot think of any other less expensive way to fulfill his self-actualization needs, then I say Godspeed. I understand medical school is the Holy Grail for us OPM’ers, but it’s not all sunshine & giggles, even for the traditional students.

So while I agree with you in principle, Dr. Quinn, that the prejudices of others should not enter into the equation, there needs to be a healthy dose of reality injected into the discussion so that the OP can make an informed decision on whether or not to move forward on this. I think that’s all the above posters were trying to do. To do less would be irresponsible of us.
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  • DrQuinn Said:
The advice to "older" women much of our lives has always been along these same ill informed lines: "There, there dear lady, don't trouble your pretty little head with all these concerns: Just go be a (housewife, secretary, etc.) and all you want to do is to *marry a doctor!*



Actually, wasn’t this type of patronizing historically done to “young” women?
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  • DrQuinn Said:
I say to Mr. "59 and considering medical school": GO FOR IT !!

The three leading accredited Caribbean medical schools all specifically will NOT discriminate on age and all three AdCom heads speaking at their regional forums have emphasized that.



Whoa, hold on a second! It’s a little premature to tell the OP (or anyone) to bypass applying to US schools and head straight to the Caribbean because s/he’ll be X years old. Caribbean schools were actually never intended for older, non-trads. They were designed for young traditional students whose goal was to not only get into medical school, but to get into medical school quickly.
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  • DrQuinn Said:
Contrary to misstatements by someone here, they offer free retention counseling and extra instruction help to keep all students succeeding to complete their degrees. Why would they want to lose tuition paying students? They don't.



What misstatements were made?

I can tell you based on my knowledge that jcolwell’s statements are right on the money. Even if I had no knowledge of this process, I would still rather defer to jcolwell’s judgment – she was on the adcom @ Stanford! She’s not going to have the hidden agenda that the Caribbean schools’ sales reps are going to have.

These schools do tend to have a very high attrition rate, approaching 50%. Any US school with this kind of attrition rate would have long since been shut down. They also have low first-time USMLE pass rates compared to US schools. Caribbean schools will never lose tuition paying students because there will never be a shortage of applicants to fill those vacated seats. Students can enroll in these schools throughout the year (not just in the fall), ensuring that these seats are not empty for very long.

Anecdotally, an acquaintance of mine, who had thought getting into a US school off of his waitlists was a remote possibility, enrolled at the American University of the Caribbean (AUC). By luck of the draw, he was admitted to a US school off of a waitlist after having already completed the spring 2009 semester at AUC. After completing the fall 2009 semester at a US school, he offered some comparisons.

AUC: It was hard not to feel lost in the crowd. The quality of instruction was better than he would have originally expected and they often get professors from US med schools. But they have rotating faculty so there is a lack of consistency in teaching style from one class cohort to another. There was little to offer in terms of academic support – it was sink or swim.

US school: The school labored over it’s admissions decision and they know that their LCME accreditation hinges on recruiting a class that will pass their boards and their classes with a minimum of difficulty (> 95% of the time) and that is equally unlikely to have many students drop out or fail out. Therefore, you are this “golden child” to them and you really feel the difference. Most US schools (with some exceptions) will do everything in their power to work with you to ensure your maximum success as a student.

AUC vs. US school: The main difference between the AUC students and the US students he worked with was not so much one of intelligence, but rather one of maturity & motivation. These Caribbean schools have a reputation for being “hook-up islands” for a reason. It’s pretty much a party atmosphere and that probably accounts for much of the high attrition. Such a place provides a much less socially inviting atmosphere for older non-trads than US schools do for this reason.

Most of the Caribbean students had an Achilles heel in the process other than age that could have been remedied.

Then, you have to consider that these schools don’t have their own teaching hospitals. Thus, in addition to the high cost of attendance, add to that the cost of moving onto the island to attend classes the 1st 2 years, then the cost of moving somewhere else (SGU, AUC & Ross have clerkships in the US) for the next 2 years. Moving is very expensive; moving twice in a 2-year period, especially to/from an overseas location is even more so.

Finally, Caribbean grads are going to have an increasingly difficult time matching into US residencies in coming years as US medical schools are expanding enrollment while US residencies are not expected to add to existing capacity. Some programs may even close. If US residencies are able to fully meet their needs with US graduates, this leaves IMGs in a difficult predicament. For someone CharlesM’s age, this would be the most frightening possibility of all – a lot of debt for someone pushing age 70 with dim employment prospects.
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  • TicDocDoh Said:
It’s pretty much a party atmosphere and that probably accounts for much of the high attrition. Such a place provides a much less socially inviting atmosphere for older non-trads than US schools do for this reason.



IMHO, a person who's truly focused on their studies young or old, won't be phased much by what everyone else is doing.

Otherwise, folks who attend med school in places like the Miami, the Big Easy, DC, San Fran, ect, could NEVER get anything done, LOL!!!