As I was eating out tonight with a friend, I was explaining to her the long road to become a doctor (application process, med school, residency). Turns out that the guy sitting at the next table starts medical school this fall.
In the course of conversation, I was stunned at what he didn’t know about the process. He didn’t know that the August MCAT is the last time you can take it and still apply for 2005 admission. He had absolutley NO idea what residency entailed. He looked totally confused when I mentioned that for many specialties, you first do a residency in internal medicine and then do another residency in the actual specialty. I honestly think he thought that if you wanted to specialize in cardiology, you went into it right out of medical school.
Am I wrong for thinking it odd that someone who is starting medical school doesn’t know more about these things? Or is it actually not that uncommon that people don’t fully grasp the length of time involved until they get into medical school?
Just curious -
Amy
How old was this guy? Probably not a non trad.
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How old was this guy? Probably not a non trad.
No - he looked like he was 21-22. Definitely a traditional student.
While its hard to believe this young guy was actually going to medical school with so little knowledge, I suppose its possible that he could have been totally guided by his pre-health department through the whole process, and just did everything his advisor told him. Can you imagine, if that is the case, his shock when he breezes (assuming) through those first two years of basic sciences, then steps out onto the clinical floor? He will have to make decisions and do MUCH MORE than memorize. That is not a good scenario.
Kathy
I’m meeting a lot of people on my program who are on total autopilot: who were told by their parents that they will be doctors, period, end of story, and have never made a life decision for themselves. They have no intellectual curiosity or social skills, and are obsessed with grades. I really think that New York City schools leave their graduates believing that if they show up they deserve an A. These premed subjects are difficult-- you have to go beyond the assigned reading and the assigned problem set (or at least do them more than once). My classmates also think City College is backbreakingly hard work, in which case they are really in for a rude awakening, come time for Gross Anatomy.
I realize that this sounds unkind, but after eight weeks of listening to constant complaint, I must unload!
Incredible. Hearing things like this makes me think getting into med school won’t be as difficult as I sometimes worry it might be. Probably just about all of us here are going to look better in an interview than guys like that. Now, if I can just get TO the interview stage, with my GPA that will always be lower than that guy’s thanks to my slip-ups early in college almost 10 years ago.
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In the course of conversation, I was stunned at what he didn’t know about the process. He didn’t know that the August MCAT is the last time you can take it and still apply for 2005 admission. He had absolutley NO idea what residency entailed. He looked totally confused when I mentioned that for many specialties, you first do a residency in internal medicine and then do another residency in the actual specialty. I honestly think he thought that if you wanted to specialize in cardiology, you went into it right out of medical school.
Sorry, Amy, I can’t resist correcting you here–in order to subspecialize, you do a residency in the primary specialty and then a fellowship in the subspecialty.
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Sorry, Amy, I can’t resist correcting you here–in order to subspecialize, you do a residency in the primary specialty and then a fellowship in the subspecialty.
NP - corrections are how we learn. I’m not sure that the above distinction has been made in the various books I have read about becoming a physician. I think some of them simply refer to “post graduate work” in one field, and then additional post graduate work in a specialty without using the term “fellowship”.
Thanks for the clarification!
Amy
Hey All,
I have to “check-in” by agreeing with Matt’s comment - and reflecting on something that I have seen in the recent past. Surprisingly, there are many “kids” who as undergraduates just follow the course that their parents start for them, and use their talents for their GPA only. In a cookie-cutter fashion they follow the rules (from their counselors) and don’t have to think. They typically do well grade wise, but are not able to understand the compassion necessary - nor the dynamics of suffering. They usually are okay clinicians (from a technical standpoint) but never really good physicians. One prime example was a young guy who got excepted to a medical college that I worked for. He was the highest GPA and MCAT student that year… but totally lost. Thank God he chose pathology for a career!
Later,
Sammy
What’s wrong with pathologists? My dad is a pathologist and he’s a great doctor. He has been on autopilot all his life, followed every rule in the book, may or may not think non trads are slightly sketchy ;-), always knew what he wanted to do from when he was four and his aunt gave him a microscope. He’s still a GREAT DOCTOR.
I agree this kid’s a bit on the extreme side in his naivete. But come on folks, he’s younger than us. We don’t know if he has compassion or not, or if he’s in medicine because his parents want him there. Even that’s not the WORST reason for going into medicine. All we know is that he isn’t well informed about the specifics of post-medical school life. I think he may still have time to learn.
Non trads on the other hand, including myself, research everything ad nauseum. That’s not always so good either.
The one thing that I totally agree with is the CCNY evaluation. Yep, that’s just how it was when I went there. The students thought they should get an A just for attending, even if they never turned in a lab report or passed a test.
I don’t think there was any intent to slam anyone here. Personally, I was just amazed that someone who had gotten as far as getting IN to medical school, seemed to know so little about the procedure of getting in, and post-medical school options.
Does that mean he won’t be a good doctor? No - not by a long shot. Does it make me wonder how well he researched his career choice? You bet it does. Do I wonder if he will turn out to be one of those doctors who advise anyone and everyone NOT to go to medical school because the medical profession isn’t all he thought it was going to be? Yes, definitely.
I also wonder what kind of clinical experience he had. All I keep hearing is how medical schools want to see that you know what the profession is about (shadowing, etc) and/or have had patient contact.
Which - moving on to another subject - this medical school has a reputation of being more concerned with grades and MCAT scores than the rest of the application. They are VERY big on research. But, without knowing the background of all their applicants and students, its difficult to know if that is a fact or rumor.
Sorry if this is a little disorganized - I think organic chemistry mechanisms are adversely affecting my brain cells!
Amy
Yep, it’s those organic chemistry mechanisms–they get in the way of everything! 
Well, I think some schools probably do care about numbers more than anything. I suppose they have their reasons for that, whatever they are.
Yeah, it’s pretty irresponsible not to do any research before jumping onto a certain career track. But then all I was trying to say was that young people often are pretty irresponsible, and maybe this guy will figure things out eventually. Also, I don’t think that thorough research of a career is any promise of future happiness. Or at least those of us with more work/life experience have a better context for evaluating the research we’ve done. When I was in my early 20’s it wouldn’t have mattered what I’d learned about this career or that one, I still would have done the exact same inadvisable things anyway. Life’s too short to regret stuff though!
ahh… it’s stories like this that make me think my road won’t be as tough as I at first thought. I mean I can’t speak for anyone else, but as a non trad, I’m a little more comfortable with my capabilities and limitations. I also tend to think that non trads are more dedicated than your average 22 year old. I know at 22 I would not have been as tenacious or committed as I am now. I have a goal, and I know the requirements of that goal, and I have a good understanding of what that entails, so I think that makes me more likely to suceed as a doctor than your average 22 year old (sorry, just some ad hoc practicing for my interviews;). After all, it only gets overwhelming when you trying to consider each step individually. But if you overview the whole process, it doesn’t seem so bad:
Premed/ugrad
MCAT
Application process
Acceptance
Med school
doctor/intern/residency/subspecialize
See? not so bad. It’s all about mindset. Maybe I’m oversimplifying, but it’s almost like a pnemonic shortcut or mantra that can get you through the smalls steps.
Hey, I think I almost convinced myself there;)
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doctor/intern/residency/subspecialize
Hi there,
It’s more like:
Medical school
Residency Application
Residency Interview
Residency
Fellowship (optional)
Independent practice
You can forget the Doctor, Intern crap. We don’t generally use those designations any more. Once you match, you are a resident and you don’t have to do a fellowship.
Natalie
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Thank God he chose pathology for a career!
Later,
Yes, I’m afraid I rather resent the no personality= pathologist comment too!
Well, gotta get a word in edgewise here…
So it’s not that uncommon to hear non-trads mention that they are more dedicated than the average traditional age student. I understand what people are getting at when they say this, and I’m not trying to disagree with anyone who feels that way. Still, I think it is a common pitfall among non-trads to get into the trap of overplaying their life experience. I’m going through the application process right now, and I’ve been noticing the average age at lots of schools. Take Northwestern. Their oldest entering student last year was 44, the youngest was 20, and the mean age was 23. Given those numbers, there are at most a handful of students in their 30s and 40’s. The vast majority are 22. Yet Northwestern prides itself on a diverse class. I think this means something–it means that for as much as med schools appreciate an age range among students, they don’t really favor maturity. (I’m not saying they do the reverse either). I can see where if a 22 year old seems unusually immature for their age, they will get rejected. But they won’t be rejected for lacking the life experience of someone much older. So just being older isn’t an advantage. Nor do I think it means one is more dedicated.
Back in my youth I was hardly what anyone would call dedicated. Nowadays I am very dedicated to what I’m doing, but it’s not because of some flowery newfound wisdom I’ve gained, but just because of reality. At 31 I’m not as flakey, that’s for sure, but really, who is? Another simple fact is that I am more shrewd about what I say and to whom. The “dedication” is partly just what people end up seeing. This helps me now, but had I been this way at 22, it would have been wierd. Anyway, I highly doubt that adcoms are going to give me extra points for having come to realizations and learned to present myself in ways that are extremely appropriate for my age.
I guess all I’m trying to say is that each person who is interested in medicine must pursue it in a way that comes naturally to them. If you’ve got great life experience, that’s wonderful–play it up! But remember that younger students are equally deserving of respect, and just as likely to make good doctors. I know for myself, I am pretty impressed with younger people who really have their act together and know what they want–as long as they don’t come across as totally subservient and one dimensional, that is.
Ok, end of speech…
Amen to that! most of the non-trads that I have met are waaaay more dedicated than I ever was in my twenties. I also get somewhat irritated when non-trads assume that being older equals being wiser NOT. I have met and know non-trads that are not mature and many that do not have a clue of what this path entail. All the folks in my class regardless of age have done amazing things and are very mature.
Pushkin, I agree. I am >40 but work with a lot of 20-somethings and quite frankly it comes down to the individual. It’s obvious that early 20s is an easier time to train in any profession–your mind is in student mode, and you’re ready to just sponge it all up. You have physical stamina and can survive on junk food and coffee. Maturity–that’s something that will come with age and life experience. I think a majority of 22-year-olds balanced with a few non-trads is a good combination.
I am enjoying my chemistry class which has a sort of bell curve of a few teens from high school, a whole bunch of 20-year-olds, a lesser number of 23-25 year-olds and a few >30. I have found most of the people are quite nice and full of comradery regardless of age. Actually, it’s a couple of the older non-trads whom I find a bit too self-centered and unfriendly. Yuck; I hope I’m not that way.
I think one of the reasons we non-trads like to say we’re more “dedicated” is that we feel that way in comparison to our own past selves. Sure, there are college students who are very dedicated, but we’re not comparing ourselves to them, we’re comparing ourselves to ourselves. I know that for me, even though I don’t have the sponge-mind of a child anymore, it’s much easier for me to study and retain knowledge now that I actually have a GOAL for once in life. When I was a college freshman, there was simply no reason not to bolt from the chemistry classroom, go back to my dorm room, play computer games, and not do my homework. There didn’t seem to be any negative consequences at the time. I still had food to eat and a place to lay my head no matter what I did, and I still felt like my whole life was ahead of me. Now, I know that if I continue to live that way, I’ll be stuck in a job I hate forever, while if I don’t, I’ll achieve my dream.
Sorry if my statement came across as youth-bashing. I agree, it really comes down to the individual. As a non trad I have to play up my strengths over my weaknesses, just as a trad student might play up that they are young, full of energy, enthusiam, and more open minded than an older student might be. It’s all on how you come across.
Oh no it was nothing said here at all. It is just comments from other non-trad at my school.