Determined and frustrated

Hello everyone. First off, I’d like to extend my gratitude for having a support network like OldPreMeds, it’s so good to see that I’m not alone with the types of issues non-trads can run into.
I’ve read a few posts relating to similar issues such as mine, I’d just like to get some advise on my problem…
I’m 31 y/o with 3 small children (all boys). I was in the service for 5 years on active duty, worked as a paramedic (both on an ambulance and in the emergency room) with an AAS, returned to school and now have a BS in biomedical science. I took the MCAT twice already. First time was an absolute embarrassment. The second time was a frustrating score of 24, in which I applied to 8 schools. Of those, 5 requested secondary apps, but no interviews. It’s been a year, now, and I am studying hard for yet another go at it in August. I am absolutely determined to get in. My wife is behind me, but I’ve been told to just give up by others. I believe that giving up now would be a huge mistake.
My questions are these: Am I doing the right thing by taking the MCAT for a third time, or should I just re-apply with what I’ve got? Would it be better to re-apply to different schools or the same ones but more of them? Any thoughts or suggestions?

Just want to put this out there, since you can only take the MCAT 3 times then if you still have trouble think about the Caribbean schools like ROSS, SGU, AUC and SABA, they have good track records and 3 of them federal student loans.


Also you spend 18 months on the islands not 4 years, the rest of med school is in the states.





You may still be able to get into a program in the US though, don’t give up!

David,
When you applied to medical school before, did you spread a wide net? Did you check the MCAT and GPA ranges at the schools to which you applied? And what about your gpa? Did you apply to any osteopathic schools? Before taking the MCAT a third time, consider those things.
I didn’t do as well as I would have liked on the MCAT, with a score of 25. The first time I applied, I did have 3 interviews, and was put on 2 waitlists. BUT I didn’t get in that year. The only thing I did the second time around was to take my bosses advice. I applied to 20+ schools, with about 15 of them being osteopathic. I ended up with several interviews, and was accepted after my first.
Don’t sell yourself short. There are schools that will consider accepting you as long as your gpa is over 3.0.
Best of luck!
Linda

I just wanted to clarify that you CAN take the MCAT more than three times. After the third time, you do have to ask the AAMC for permission to sit for it a fourth time, but I have never heard of anyone being refused permission.





David, I would start by asking for advice on improving your app from the schools that rejected you. But I’m guessing that with an MCAT of 24, you can safely assume that your MCAT is probably one of the larger weaknesses in your app. So I think you are doing the right thing by re-taking, assuming that you will be able to pull your MCAT up into at least the high 20s range.

I agree with Linda! When I applied this last time, I applied to 20+ schools. I had decided that there was no way in h@## I was not getting into med school this time around, and my efforts were rewarded. Yes, it’s expensive, but in the long run it is more than worth it! Take heart, by the way. I interviewed at a school in Oklahoma with someone who had a 16 (you heard me right!!!) on their MCAT!!! You never know who will be reading your application and might decide to give you a chance. Good luck!
Jane

I know that Jane is trying to give you hope, but it is an unrealistic hope in many cases IMO, at least if you are trying to get into an American allopathic school. What I’m saying is that an interviewee with a 16 MCAT is very unusual, and no one should assume that just because this one person somehow got an interview with a score of 16 that ANYONE can expect to be able to do that. The AAMC publishes stats about what proportions of people with various scores apply and get accepted. The average MCAT score for matriculants to allopathic schools is a 30: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005mcatgpa.htm Yes, that means that many people must get in with scores below a 30, but the farther below a 30 you get, the harder it will be. A 24 is the 50th percentile and is therefore right on the dividing line. Once you get below a 24, it gets prohibitively harder to get accepted; for example, my state schools won’t even send secondaries to people who score below a 24. I think that the best advice for people with scores below that range is to retest to try to bring their scores up to at least the mid-twenties, rather than to just take a shotgun approach to applying and hope that someone somewhere takes mercy on you. Alternatively, you could consider other options besides US allopathic medicine that don’t place so much weight on MCAT performance. But if you want to go to a US allopathic school, the MCAT score is usually very important, whether we like that or not. And that is the reality of the situation.

I guess I just have to disagree with Q of Quimica. There are other options to becoming a doctor besides allopathic medicine. Osteopathic schools are much more open to a total package and not just an MCAT score! So, while you may want to retake the beast, when you sit with a 24, according to statistics your chances of improving are no better than your chances of getting a lower score.
So, Jane and I have both offered a possible solution. Throw a wider net. Again, this was the idea of an osteopathic physician I worked for who is the head of Rheumatology at an allopathic medical institution. If you want to be a physician, it shouldn’t matter whether it is an MD or a DO!! And the DO schools are all over the United States. Foreign schools are much more risky!
As to your MCAT score, I know of 2 people who got into my school with MCATS less than 20. There is more to your application than just your score. You might want to look into a professional consultation with someone like Judy Colwell who can help you package yourself in the best manner.
For heavens sake, don’t give up just because of one application cycle. Do what YOU think you need to do to improve your package, and then apply again.

BTW, the individual with the MCAT score of 16 was interviewing with me at a DO school. I think they are, at times, much more understanding of the non-traditional student and of those who have had difficulties in their lives but have learned to overcome them. Bottom line, a lot of times they look at the whole person, not just the grades/scores. Again, good luck!
Jane

Just to be clear, Linda, I definitely wasn’t trying to suggest that allopathic schools are the only route to becoming a doctor. I would agree with you and Jane both that osteopathic schools seem to be much more forgiving of low MCAT scores than allopathic schools are, and that was why I tried to make clear that my last post was explicitly referring to American ALLOPATHIC schools. I re-read the original post, and actually the OP doesn’t say whether he is determined to get into an allopathic school, or whether he would consider osteopathic schools as well. So I am admittedly just guessing that he was only looking at allopathic schools, but assuming that’s the case, I do think his MCAT score could explain why he didn’t get any interviews for the reasons I gave previously.

Thank you to all of you for replying to my post. I’ll take all of your comments into consideration. Just to clear up some questions that I saw: my GPA is 3.2 (not very impressive, I know), I’m leaning more toward allopathic, but I’m not cutting off DO totally from my list.
As I previously mentioned, I only applied to 8 schools before. If you all think that it would be worth it by re-applying with what I’ve got (this time to 20+ schools) before taking my 3rd MCAT, then perhaps that is the better route to go on.
Aside from $$, I suppose there’s really nothing to lose by re-applying first. If that doesn’t work out, then I’ll have to consider taking the “beast” (I like that one, by the way) for the 3rd, and hopefully, final time.
By doing it this way, I will be able to send off my apps early in the app season. Does it really make a difference (especially in my situation) to submit my apps early on, as opposed to closing in on the deadline like I did last time?
Again, thanks everyone.

If your hopes are set on allopathic schools then your MCAT will be a hindrance. Now, “could” you possibly get into A school with your MCAT sure, but the odds are against you. On top of a lackluster MCAT you also have a low GPA which is “another” red flag. Now, I am not saying this to in any way discourage you but just to give you some honest to God advice. The competition for medical school spots at ALLOPATHIC schools is getting steeper every year. Students that get in with lesser MCAT scores than the “average” like Q stated for accepted allopathic medical students, usually have other MAJOR elements in their application that make them attractive to adcoms. Things such as a super uber GPA, extensive overseas work with Peace Corps, tons of research, etc…so sure some folks that DO get in with low MCAT by far can make it up with other things. From the sound of your application (and again not trying to be a snot here) there are no other “saved the world” type things…so hence taking the MCAT again is my suggestion. Is this what you want to hear? probably not but I would be very cautious about applying to 20-30 allopathic schools with a low MCAT…hopefully Judy Colwell can comment (admissions advisor).

I know most here only go to schools in the USA but the big four in the Caribbean are good schools and are an option with those with lower GPAs and MCATS that still want to be an MD. I know of many graduates and those now in the Caribbean that are doing well, very well. The other oprions are to take more time even years to get in a US school, but the Caribbean schools sometimes, you can go right in and get on with becoming a Doctor which is the final goal.


I think it’s wrong to ignor them as a choice. There a lot of myths about the Caribbean schools that frankly are just myths. Those who are out there now as residents tell us are there not Caribbean grads that are residents in your programs right now? I would be surprised to find out there wasn’t some.





I just about never post this but I think every now and then it should be looked at as an option.





When I graduate from my Caribbean School I will be no less a Doctor than any other graduate.





Bill, you are absolutely right. Graduates of the big 4 Caribbean schools are doctors. My major concern right now is how much longer they will be able to get rotations and residencies here in the states. It seems more restrictive changes are being made all the time.





But you are right. You WILL be a doctor, and I have a feeling YOU will be a GOOD one!





Oh, by the way, we will have one of the Caribbean schools, St. Matthews, sponsoring a table at the conference this year. It will be a great way for those considering a Caribbean education to get an overview of their program and what they offer.





Linda

David, lots of folks want to wait to see their MCAT score before committing their $$$ to an application season, but you don’t have to, you know. You can go ahead and apply at the starting gun and get into the “early app” pile while preparing for the August MCAT. The downside: you’re out a pile of money if your August MCAT isn’t a strong improvement. The upside: if your MCAT is good, you’ll get interview invites within a week or two after your MCAT scores are out, at least from some schools.
Every school has a different methodology for evaluating applications. From trading stories with people over the years, I’ve concluded that there are schools who do a preliminary evaluation of your application while waiting for your MCAT.
So rearrange your thinking a bit there, and consider whether you’re willing to take a small financial risk (in the grand scheme of things) to get your application in early, while still prepping for the August MCAT.
Mary

Quote:

Thank you to all of you for replying to my post. I’ll take all of your comments into consideration. Just to clear up some questions that I saw: my GPA is 3.2 (not very impressive, I know), I’m leaning more toward allopathic, but I’m not cutting off DO totally from my list.
As I previously mentioned, I only applied to 8 schools before. If you all think that it would be worth it by re-applying with what I’ve got (this time to 20+ schools) before taking my 3rd MCAT, then perhaps that is the better route to go on.
Aside from $$, I suppose there’s really nothing to lose by re-applying first. If that doesn’t work out, then I’ll have to consider taking the “beast” (I like that one, by the way) for the 3rd, and hopefully, final time.
By doing it this way, I will be able to send off my apps early in the app season. Does it really make a difference (especially in my situation) to submit my apps early on, as opposed to closing in on the deadline like I did last time?
Again, thanks everyone.


Hi there,
Before you take the MCAT a third time, try to figure out why you have done so poorly and correct your problems. A third mediocre score is not good and may totally tank your application.
Even if you have to take another year to get your problems worked out, do not take the MCAT until you KNOW for sure, that you can do better. With your low GPA, you NEED to have a very, very strong MCAT and you have failed to do this twice before.
Do you have a knowledege deficit? Do you not understand how to successfully navigate the types of questions and the manner of testing on the MCAT? These questions should be answered before you invest any more money in tuition and testing.
Good luck!
Natalie

I’m all for Carribean schools…now. I have a coworker who has a learning disability so she does poorly on the MCAT. GPA is ~3.8 but very low MCAT. She’s applying to the Carib. The competition for the Carib schools is going up. I’m not sure what is going on in the US but the mean MCAT for St. George’s is 24. So the only difference seems to be the GPA.
That being said as nontrads we need to look at every option and the consequences. I’m not secure in my own skin to go to the Carib as an older student and then battle it out for residency spots. With 70+% of Carib grads going into FP those aren’t good numbers for someone like myself who is looking at EM or surg.
I believe that after I’ve exhausted all US allo and osteo would I look at Carib but not before.
To the OP…have you looked at USUHS. I’m not sure if you’d be competitive with those numbers but being prior service might open an interview door for you.

Hello all,
Just a quick update. I’ve decided to hold off on taking the MCAT for the 3rd time and instead applied to two Caribbean schools (AUC and Ross). I believe that it isn’t the school that makes good doctors, it’s how good you’re willing to be and how hard you’re willing to study and learn. You must ask yourself, “How bad do I really want this?” If you want it bad enough, it will not be the school that makes or breaks you – it will be YOU.
So, as far as I can tell, for all those interested, I do not have a deficit, but thanks for asking.
I’ve come across many doctors in my time that I believe should never have been one, and I know I’m not the only one who sees this. If you’ve got what it takes to become a great doctor, then that’s exactly what you’ll become, regardless of the school. Those who use their school’s name as a crutch have issues with their ego.
Only a few days - actually five to be exact - after submitting to AUC, they gave me a phone call to express to me just how anxious they are to obtain my official documentation for a committee review. They claimed to have gotten excited over my bio and background. I’m trying not to get too jacked up over it, but this has been the most excitement from any school. We’ll see what happens.
David

Good luck with residency. Not being funny. Just do great during school and work even harder during clinicals. I’ve been in contact with residents and attendings of some carib schools and they’ve all said it’s an uphill battle. You seem ready so go get em!

That’s great news, David! Sounds like they’re very interested. Let us know how it goes!
Jane

Good Luck, You’ll get in!