Little insight from a Dean of Admissions

Nontraditional Premed Discussion
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There are three voices on this site who are freely and without reservation allowed to say whatever they want. God forbid you deviate from worshipping the OPM trinity.

I’ve noticed this, too. There are a few disciples of the trinity as well.
You think it’s bad here, though, try SDN. That place is full of primadonnas who walk on water. I don’t like to post there any more.

This is the first time I have been outraged by posts of members of this organization. I am appalled that any of us would choose to attack other members (or anyone for that matter) in such a manner.
Please keep personal attacks out of the forums. The vast majority of us who come to this site do so for the mature approach OPM members can bring to the dialogue and process of nontraditional students becoming doctors. We are fortunate to have varied viewpoints, and although some people may be perceived as direct (and perhaps, more confident) in what they say, they are offering opinions, the same as anyone else in this great organization. I am frequently at odds with the “OPM trinity” (as labeled by others), but I do not feel that I am hindered from posting my opinion or advice, and am certainly not made to be felt inferior to them. Give the benefit of the doubt to your fellow members that they are offering what they believe is the best advice, whether it be from their personal experiences or experiences which have been relayed by others. You as a reader are free to agree or disagree, offer opposing viewpoints, or simply not read posts by members with whom you have differences. Offer your own advice and experiences without demeaning your fellow OPM members.
If you feel you need to approach a person because of the way you are treated in a post or how you perceive others were treated, please consider handling the issue in a more direct manner by contacting the individual on a personal level through the OPM e-mail.
This organization is FAR too valuable and important (I guess that’s a bit redundant! ) for us to be moving in this direction.
Larry
PS I prefer to receive my tongue-lashing privately, so please send me a mail instead of nailing me to the wall in the forum!

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Are we talking about allo schools or osteo schools?
And while the kids might have it “easy” right now, it will change. Those kids are more likely to get their butts handed to them by the work load than those of us who are used life 3-4x harder than they’ve had it.
It would truely be a shame if adcoms can’t realize that.

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Are we talking about allo schools or osteo schools?
And while the kids might have it “easy” right now, it will change. Those kids are more likely to get their butts handed to them by the work load than those of us who are used life 3-4x harder than they’ve had it.
It would truely be a shame if adcoms can’t realize that.

This is a great post. Not that I would wish harm on anyone, but it would be nice to see some of the arrogant young pre-meds get their come-uppaneces.
But there are some young pre-meds who are very humble. A friend of mine is in his 3rd year of a surgical residency at SIU. He did undergrad then went straight to med school, but put himself through. I know he paid most of the tuition out of his pocket (granted, it was SIU) and one job he had was at a tuxedo shop. But then again, the young, humble ones are probably ready for hard work.
But still, the world is constantly changing, and we have to hope that it will get better and better for the non-trads. Heck, it wasn’t THAT long ago that applications by women were looked down upon and now that’s changed.
Regarding the other posts, while I respect most members on this board (with exception to the trolls), that is still not going to stop me from speaking my mind. But, I realize that when I do that, there may be other opinions contrary to mine. That’s fine. Everyone has an opinion and should be considered (except trolls), and a persons position in the medical path doesn’t make them more right or wrong, but does give them more authority. So, when those members that have been here longer or have area expertise offer their opinion, I listen. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don’t. But I also listen to those who are newer or are still “lowly non-trad pre-meds” like myself. Their opinions have value too.
Anyway, I think that’s where the issue lies. I’m making it a non-issue RIGHT NOW.
Except I still think that guy was a troll .

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I do not get this “paucity” of OPM’ers with medical school admissions? I think JKHamlin (sorry if the name is wrong) mentioned it…I was offered 30 interviews out of 32 applied on AMCAS at the age of 38. I applied very broadly and all over except California schools. I also received three FULL rides and I am not saying this to brag or whatever. I am stating this to demonstrate that non-trads get IN all the time! BUT you NEED recent proof that you can handle medical school curriculum AND do well on standardized exams. This is done via recent excellent coursework grades AND a solid MCAT score. Also, it is not just about grades/mcat so that is “just” the tip of the iceberg…adcoms will also seek folks that have shown PROOF of commitment to the community and folks with proof of knowing what they are getting into. This is done via volunteering in ONE or TWO things that you are passionate about NOT thousands of activities (jack of all trades master of none) and does not have to be medical related. They also (adcoms) would like to see exposure to medicine to make sure that you have some sort of idea of what migth lie ahead. I know that if you have BAD GPA from eons ago that it does come to haunt you and that sucks BUT if you prove yourself NOW there is no problem with MOST medical school. Shoot OldManDAve had a HORRID undergrad GPA and then did a whole new degree AND was accepted and now is a anesthesiologist! so yes it can be done. Also, and this might ruffle some feathers…wanting to be an MD is not necessarily a right. Meaning, some folks will WANT this BAD and think they “should” get it…well sorry live is hard. Unless you can PROVE that you can make it through medical school some folks will never get in (not anyone here btw). If someone consistently is getting bad grades and consistently taking the mcat and getting 15’s that person “might” just not be medical school material. We all do not get what we want all the time! I want to be a supermodel but at 4’11 there is no way! I want do do X or Y residency after medical school but unless you have the GRADES/USMLE/research it will NOT happen period. So again, non-trads DO get into places but they have to be competitive with their trad counterparts. Not everything is about numbers but yes to a certain extent they HAVE to look and base choices based upon numbers because you have to PASS medical school and the boards. Unless you can do well in undergrad and take the mcat and do well how do you expect to do a 200% turnaround and pass medical school? sure there might be a few individuals that bombed the hell out of undergrad and have 10 mcat that passed medical school but this is NOT the norm. The only way for adcoms to objectively pick from thousands of applicants is to have some sort of numbers evaluation I mean come’on folks…schools get like 5,000 applications. So if you want to get into medical school put your money where your mouth is and jump through all the hoops that it entails. Play by their rules or stay out of the game. Sure it sucks, but this is the way it is. Also, I am somewhat nonplussed about the trad comments? what is up with that? not ALL trads have beemers and parents paying! most of my classmates are very down to earth and I admire their determination at such a young age to pursure such a demanding career! this is what maybe some of us should have done earlier! but were to busy living in the 80’s. Do not put the young folks down just because they are young and chose to pursue this at the right time for them…sure they might not have ALL the issues that we do…but this was OUR choice to pursue this at this time so why look down upon those that did it while young? there are some huge boulders on shoulders and they need to come off…because medicine is RUN by and you will be UNDER folks younger than yourself at some point so beware of the attitude.

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I think the rant about adcom members is a little unjustified. Do they make mistakes? Of course they do. They are human, just like the applicants. As far as the overpaid . . . at the schools I interviewed at, most of the interviewers and people on the committee are volunteers or getting very little compensation. At the school I attend, many of the interviewers who are not on the med school faculty are usually practicing physicians who close down their offices for the afternoon to conduct interviews and the following committee meeting. Many of them come in an hour before they have to in order to review the applicants file before meeting with them.
Being an admissions committee member cannot be an easy job. There are far more qualified applicants out there than spots. Unfortunatetly, I don’t think there is a clear cut way to determine who will be a good doctor. The fact that someone raised two kids and worked while doing well in their pre-reqs does not mean that they are going to be a better doctor than a college senior who has never worked a day in their life.
Consider the numbers . . . my school received around 4000 applications this year. Then, they interview about 750 of those to fill a class of 210. As I sat with my interview group, I felt truly insignificant when some of the people talked about their accomplishments. Somehow, though, the adcom selected me, with a lower GPA and MCAT than a lot of the applicants, over people with phenomenal research experience, EC’s and etc.
While some schools are purely numbers driven, there are a great many of them out there that review the entire application before rejecting an applicant. As others have said before though, traditional or not, your academics have to demonstrate that you can handle the coursework. For me, the argument that your grades are lower because you had a family to raise, job etc, just doesn’t wash. Is it understandable? Yes. Does that mean you can handle the medical school coursework? No. The kids and family aren’t going to go away in medical school.
Ok - enough of my counter-rant. I completely agree that there are people out there with lower academic qualifications who would make outstanding doctors and many of those with stellar qualifications who will be lousy or mediocre doctors. However, there is no magic ball that will determine that.
Amy

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“OPM Holy Trinity”…hmm, has a nice, ring to it…I can just hear it over my laughter.





As the founding member of the “Holy Trinity” I can flatly state that anyone & everyone has the right to disagree & defend there assertions here on OPM w/o fear of punitive action. In fact, in the entire lifetime of OPM - 1997 to present - I think I/we have removed 2 maybe 3 people for unprofessional, inflammatory or otherwise immature behavior. Considering we have ~3600 members, I think that it is a pretty paltry number & assertions of persecution for those disagree are completely w/o foundation.





Furthermore, as a member of OPM, I have an EQUAL right to express & defend my assertions as long as it done in a mature, articulate & professional manner. That is how it has been done, is done & will always be done on OPM - as long as I have something to say about it.





Another thing, the “Holy Trinity & our disciples” CHOOSE to share our cumulative wisdom from actually experiencing & SUCCEEDING in this game called “admission to medical school”. No, the system is not perfect (nor does it claim to be), it makes mistakes (bad decisions to admit/not admit both non-trads & trads) and will most likely never come close to attaining perfection. However, know this for certain, the non-trads who do get in indirectly & directly are advocating for more open admission mindsets for medical schools. It was not too many years ago that if you were not a white boy straight of Ugrad - you did stand an ice-cube’s chance in hell of getting in. That situation is massively different these days, by, in part, due to on-trads who were not intimidated by the status quo & choose to take the bull by the horns & forge new paths. Over the last 15 to 20 years, most medical school (both allo & osteo) have progrsssively become more open to admitting old folks. No, they do not share this disposition nor will all of them ever agree on doing so.





None of us here claim to have secret knowledge of “the way” that we have scuttled away to portion out to the little people. No, in fact, we were equally awash in rumors, myths & false perceptions about getting into medical school as you guys are. But, we educated ourselves, networked our asses off and learned how to succeed in the system. You will never change the system from the outside. It can only be changed from the inside. So, we choose to share what worked & did not work for us in an effort to guide others who are trying to follow & also achieve their dreams. But, I will flatly state, just as Efex101 did, not everyone who wants to become a physician - no matter how badly you want it - will succeed in doing so.





Furthermore, blaming our situations on the perceived “easy road” of our younger colleagues is truly only a scapegoat for our own perceptions of self. Yes, as non-trads with families, bills, mortgages & an infinitely long list of other hinderances have many hurdles to overcome. But, YOU chose the path that placed you where you are & YOU must accept responsibility for being there & YOU are the only one who can change the situation. The younger applicants did not cause your situation…period. Furthermore, they have their own perilous mountains to climb. While maybe not saddled with our baggage, they must also succeed in the face of a paucity of life & professional experience for them to fall back on, the ability to know that they can stumble, fail & recoever & the critically important art of balance to succeed at multiple demanding obligations. There’s is no easy road.





Finally, an extraordinary few of my classmates had ‘silver spoons’…the same can be said about the preponderance of the residents with whom I work on a daily basis - and this is at an Ivy League institution, where the silver spoons allegedly aggregate.





Now that my counter-rant is drawing to close, I have a polite suggestion for all of you who are choosing to blame others (younger applicants, AdComs & whomever) for you own plight. Take a moment to look at this objectively - not emotionally charged - and choose to take responsiblity for your situation. Then you will be able to rechannel the energy you are wasting in placing blame on external causes…ever heard of tilting windmills? When you internalize your locus of control, you will empower yourself to make positive changes in your life.





I know when I flunked out of college…yes FLUNKED OUT of college…it took me years to regain the self-esteem to reinternalize my locus. However, when I finally did, I was able to succeed & attain my dreams: father, husband & physician. As long as you sustain your angst & misdirect towards others, who are not truly the cause of your hinderances, you will not succeed.





The reason folks on OPM listen to what Nat, Mary & I have to say is because we obviously made it work. And, many others who have come behind us & others who simply try to help because they care (JColwell) have helped us to refine the advice & counsel we provide merely for the asking.

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First off, yes, I am one of the disciples of the “OPM Trinity”. And I feel very lucky to be there. However, I would more likely classify them as the “backbone” of our organization.





Second, like Dave said, “There’s no easy road.” And if we have stumbling blocks, then we have to pick ourself up and set our focus on getting beyond them.





For this purpose, OPM members, and especially Dave, Natalie, and Mary, are staunch supporters. They continually share their experiences and give encouragement, advice, and hope when things get tough.





I am speaking from experience. After one year of applying and not getting accepted, OPM, and members such as JColwell, were my source of constant support while I worked on improving my application so that the second year I would (and did) get accepted.





Since that time I have shared many of the stumbling blocks I have encountered during medical school with the members of OldPreMeds. This is not done for sympathy, but to help others realize that whatever obstacles may occur, they can be overcome. BUT, the first thing you have to do is own up to them. Take responsibility for errors; work harder; do whatever you have to do in a professional manner to see that you can overcome them.





For those who are struggling to get accepted, don’t give up! Step back, like Dave said, clear your mind of frustration and angst, and take an honest look at yourself and your situation. Maybe then you will find ways to improve your chances at success, not only in getting accepted to medical school, but success in life in general.





One last point. OPM has always been open to peoples opinions. The one thing that is asked is that we respect the right of others to have opinions that differ from our own. If we are offended by what others may say, then take that to them through a personal message or private email. Don’t clutter up the forums with personal attacks!





Linda

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This is a great post. Not that I would wish harm on anyone, but it would be nice to see some of the arrogant young pre-meds get their come-uppaneces.


Well, I didn’t mean for it to come out like that. Simply put, those of us with a harder road right now will most likely find it easier later. If anyone here has ever been in sports or anything which would adopt the same motto, “Train harder than the game”. I recall when I played basketball for school, we practice 3-4 hours in the morning…HARD. I never got winded in a game though which is where it mattered.
You see, there are benefits to a harder road now than later. You’ll have many things figured out already while others scramble and struggle. If you have a family and kids now while making the grades, then you already have learned how to balance that. A youngling who has kids or marries while they’re a med student or resident, or even after being in their own practice will have to then figure out how to balance that.
As for myself, I hope to be there for someone who struggles because I feel I’ll be able to offer helpful “I’ve been there-here’s what I did” advice.
So to sum up, I most certainly did not want my post to come off as a “those kids are so screwed”. I just wanted to note the bright side to all of this. It’s indeed a far greater accomplishment if you can do it taking a harder path. If you make it into med school, you can give yourself an extra pat on the back.
Everyone has or will have their struggles. It’s either now or later.

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So to sum up, I most certainly did not want my post to come off as a “those kids are so screwed”. I just wanted to note the bright side to all of this. It’s indeed a far greater accomplishment if you can do it taking a harder path. If you make it into med school, you can give yourself an extra pat on the back.
Everyone has or will have their struggles. It’s either now or later.

Wackie,
I agree; I don’t hate “those kids” either. They’re just in a different place than some of us are. I was a kid too and when I was 21 I still had a lot of growing up to do (probably still do lo these many years later).
Medicine is a great accomplishment at any age and certainly even more so when you are fighting the societal attitudes and biases that dictate where you should be in your life at a certain age.

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There are three voices on this site who are freely and without reservation allowed to say whatever they want. God forbid you deviate from worshipping the OPM trinity.

I’ve noticed this, too. There are a few disciples of the trinity as well.
You think it’s bad here, though, try SDN. That place is full of primadonnas who walk on water. I don’t like to post there any more.

Folks, folks, folks…
People are free to state their opinions and disagree with each other’s ideas in these forums, but ad hominem attacks cross the line. Maybe it’s OK on some other internet forums but not here. Insulting or intimidating posts add nothing to the forum but only degrade the tone and ruin it for everyone else.
I don’t necessarily agree with what others post here and I certainly don’t worship at anyone’s feet, but I highly respect the expertise and experience and wisdom of those who have gone before me on this path.
Ignorance is an ugly thing. Try to use this FREE service to correct your knowledge gaps. If there’s advice that doesn’t work for you, feel free to not take it, and dispute it as you wish. But please don’t dump on people who are donating their very valuable time.
A final thought: this is a networking opportunity. Many of the people here (most of us, I would hope) are going to be professional colleagues 5 or 10 years down the line, and I hope we will all still be in touch then, helping others down this path and helping each other with the day to day challenges of this profession. A precious thing, this.
now back to preparing for my physics final.

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This is a great post. Not that I would wish harm on anyone, but it would be nice to see some of the arrogant young pre-meds get their come-uppaneces.


Well, I didn’t mean for it to come out like that. Simply put, those of us with a harder road right now will most likely find it easier later. If anyone here has ever been in sports or anything which would adopt the same motto, “Train harder than the game”. I recall when I played basketball for school, we practice 3-4 hours in the morning…HARD. I never got winded in a game though which is where it mattered.
You see, there are benefits to a harder road now than later. You’ll have many things figured out already while others scramble and struggle. If you have a family and kids now while making the grades, then you already have learned how to balance that. A youngling who has kids or marries while they’re a med student or resident, or even after being in their own practice will have to then figure out how to balance that.
As for myself, I hope to be there for someone who struggles because I feel I’ll be able to offer helpful “I’ve been there-here’s what I did” advice.
So to sum up, I most certainly did not want my post to come off as a “those kids are so screwed”. I just wanted to note the bright side to all of this. It’s indeed a far greater accomplishment if you can do it taking a harder path. If you make it into med school, you can give yourself an extra pat on the back.
Everyone has or will have their struggles. It’s either now or later.

Hey, that’s cool. But as we all now know, people will sometimes interpret things differently than you write them.

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I am sorry but I am not so sure about allopathic schools love ADULT students. But I will be 100% sure that they love a young 4.0 GPA with 35 MCAT.





Therefore, until anyone bring proof that more ADULT with pretty average or low GPA be accepted to MD, I won’t believe it.





C’mon now, there are more young studs in every MD program than old non-trad. like myself right?






Come on, now, kiddo, this is a grown-up message board. I think you’re looking for the pre-allo forum at SDN.





Why don’t you get your binky and let the adults finish their conversation? Good boy!






We might claim that we are smarter not older but the reality is not that. At the age of 30+, your brain is not as fast as those 20+ students. Yes, you have a ton of life experience, but handling the medical shool load is hard and curing people is harder. You cannot do it then, how surely you said to yourself that you can do it now?





You must be really smart or you must be extremely experienced to do your job as a medical doctor. Med school is not for everyone and your time is short.





That’s my point and peace to everyone.

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Spooner,





I have never seen you post before this thread, so I am trying not to judge you too harshly. However, I feel I have to respond to the following comments:





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Yes, you have a ton of life experience, but handling the medical shool load is hard and curing people is harder. You cannot do it then, how surely you said to yourself that you can do it now?





You must be really smart or you must be extremely experienced to do your job as a medical doctor. Med school is not for everyone and your time is short.






First, medical school is hard for everyone, regardless of age. We all know that and are prepared to deal with it. As far as knowing whether or not one will be successful, no one (and I mean 20+ or 50+ like myself!) can know with a surety that they will succeed. As nontraditional students, though, part of the experiences we bring with us include the ability to focus and accomplish more than we could when we were younger. And, as to how long we have to practice, that is a fact no one knows either. Regardless of your age, situations may arise which will make it difficult, or impossible, to continue on your chosen path.





Best of luck in your future endeavors.





Linda


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At the age of 30+, your brain is not as fast as those 20+ students.

I really don’t want to get involved in this thread, however I do have to say that this comment is just crap. Where is your evidence that the brains of 20-something students are “faster” than those of 30-something students? If this is the case, then why do senior professors at universities get to teach the hardest classes? If my 25-year-old physics lab TA had a brain that was running so fast, and my 50-something professor was so old and slow, why didn’t they switch places so that the smart young TA could teach all the theories and let the old guy worry about rounding up batteries and light bulbs for lab experiments? Oh, and can you really say that the world’s greatest scientists have all made their biggest discoveries in their 20s??
There is also a theory I read about recently that says that people’s wisdom grows with age, which is why so many Supreme Court justices tend to be rather old.

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I kind of “agree” with this to some point…I do believe that as we age things “might” get a little bit tougher to assimilate large amounts of material BUT it can be done just might take more time…I do not know if there are any studies that prove this…but this is why younger children are encouraged to learn languages/etc. I might be more focused now but it sure seems to take longer.

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Spooner,
In some manner of speaking, I think you may be correct. I am very confident that I was much quicker at learning at age 20…when I was not in an altered state …however, I think what Linda & Efex are trying to get at is that life experiences helps us be more efficient learners & much more adept at the art of balancing multiple obligations.
Furthermore, this is especially true of me, I was totally deficient in maturity, dedication & self-discipline. My friend, no matter how smart you are, that is the recipe for an acedemic disaster…which is what my first trip to Ugrad was - a disaster!

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We might claim that we are smarter not older but the reality is not that. At the age of 30+, your brain is not as fast as those 20+ students. Yes, you have a ton of life experience, but handling the medical shool load is hard and curing people is harder. You cannot do it then, how surely you said to yourself that you can do it now?
You must be really smart or you must be extremely experienced to do your job as a medical doctor. Med school is not for everyone and your time is short.
That’s my point and peace to everyone.

How do you explain those physicians in their 40’s and older who continue to publish extraordinary research? They aren’t slow! I haven’t come across anyone on this board who is academically slower than the 20-year-olds. Most of us that are in school are getting A’s. Sure it’s a tougher road, but that’s because we can’t just come home, study, and sleep. We have to go to work (REAL work, involving REAL decisions), raise a family, and/or care for our spouses, and THEN take care of educational responsibilities.
I think it reflects wonderfully on the brain capacity of those who can do it all and still stay sane.
I don’t buy your argument, and I still think you were trying to cause strife.

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Well, I have to agree with Efex about langauge acquisition. But that seems like a special category. There’s so much evidence showing that young children learn languages faster than older children, and of course they learn MUCH faster than adults. I don’t know if a person in their 20s would have much of an advantage in this area.





Another area is sports and things like dance. And not just the physicial component–but in say, gymnastics, you really can’t teach adults the same skills you can teach kids because kids lack the fear that adults have and they are more able to respond to the coaching I guess. So anyway, of course there are many of these areas where youth is a huge advantage. Maybe music is one too…





But I still think it’s unfair to try to lump people together on the basis of age and say that this or that is supposed to be true about them regarding their intellectual ability or their life experience. Maybe people just peak at different times in their lives in the different areas of life. However, I have noticed that the people who most often claim that academic ability diminishes with age tend to be… in their early 20s!





And of course with life experience, that can go both ways! I mean, I have an uncle who never seems to learn when it comes to driving a car. He gets into more accidents each year it seems, and he gets more defensive each time he has to explain what happened! Not everyone learns from their experience or has more to offer the world as a result of it. And probably for everyone there are some unfortunate patterns we just keep repeating. But I kind of notice among non-trads that there is a tendency to revere life experience like it’s the biggest thing we have to offer. I think this can be a mistake because each of us has pleny of other aptitudes that we should be emphasizing in addition to the benefits of experience.





I guess if someone is saying that it takes longer to absorb material later in life when you are busy with things like a family or a job, that’s one thing–I’d agree. But not everyone who’s “older” even has those same responsibilities! There ARE some single people who apply to med school later :wink: Everyone’s situation is different and I still don’t think it’s fair to say that 20-somethings are always “quicker” than 30-somethings.

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<<
I get measured all the time by the same yard stick they use for kids.
>>
We can’t ask for anything else, right? What’s the alternative, a more generous yardstick? I have done postgraduate study in the liberal arts, and I will tell you that the premed competition is much fairer. Shy or brusque or bitchy or talky or friendly-- whatever your personality type, you can either choose to do your o-chem problem sets all night long or not. In the end, it’s really all up to us-- we have to be ready to compete with anyone, of any age, on the same turf. In my twenties, I had a lot of personal problems, with my sexuality, with my moods, that precluded me from pursuing a career path as serious as this. That doesn’t give me the right to bear a grudge against other people who got their act together earlier.

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That doesn’t give me the right to bear a grudge against other people who got their act together earlier.

Well said! Truth be told I was quite envious of my twenty-something medical school colleagues who were motivated, dedicated to what they wanted to do, and able to see it through. Doesn’t mean I regret my own meandering course to this profession but honestly, I did not have the dedication and drive they did at an early age. Good for them, I say.
And I met plenty of traditional-aged students (while doing my post-bacc) who were working 30 hrs a week in addition to studying, supporting themselves not getting Beemers from their daddies, etc. I have college-age (and older) kids and you know, it’s just different. THEY don’t realize that they’ve got it easier because they don’t have the perspective of another decade or two! This is pretty much true for everything I’ve ever undertaken, come to think of it - I remember with baby #2 wishing I’d realized how much free time I had when I had only one baby. Six months ago my patient care schedule had me seeing one patient every half hour and I was scrambling to keep up and never got my patient phone calls done until the end of the day. Now I’m seeing a patient every 15 minutes and wishing for the old 30-minute schedule, wow I would have so much free time! My conclusion: all of life is a learning curve I guess.
Mary