where do i stand??

where to begin…


i’m 34 in Phoenix and up till this point have been floundering in my life for the past 10 years not having done anything with stretches of unemployment interspersed and even at one time been homeless living out on the street. single, male, 3.8+gpa with bs in bio about a decade ago.


i’m eyeing to take the mcats in january on the cbt formate…i’m really stressing. I’ve been topping out at 27-28’s on the practices…i can’t seem to go beyound that…am i finished before i even start? should i postpone the mcats again till april? i want to get at least a 35…but realistically hoping for at least 30.


my eyes don’t move as fast as they used to and i subvocalize ALOT…which really slows down my reading. been trying to stop subvocalizing…does it matter? is this a myth? can one finish reading verbal section and do well even when subvocalizing?


any suggestions? i get tripped up on the verbal section…i always time myself and the time stresses me out and i’m sitting there for the first 10 minutes just rereading the first passage trying to understand it. I could really use some advice. i need to improve my reading speed and have been trying to read nytimes each day. is it too little too late?


as far as the science sections go…how should i approach those sections? they say it only covers sciences from the first 2 years of college but the passages seem arcane and so removed from the basic concepts. I get so bogged down in the fine minusia of the passages i easily get overwhelmed.


the other question i had was…which allopathic schools are nontrad friendly?


with 3.8gpa and IF i get 27-28…what do you think my chances are? slim to none?


i need some direction/ sound advice/guidance from people who’ve done this already.


realistically can i make it to an allopathic school or am i fooling myself?


can someone suggest a way to frame myself? what’s the tact i should use to package myself to med schools?


i’ve been trying to get volunteer gig at local hospital but nothing. i’ve also contacted private practice doctors in the area to see if i could shadow them…it’s a no go. any suggestions on how to get med experience starting asap? i’m out of ideas.


they say getting into med school is the hardest part of med school…


thanks in advance.

You’ve been offered advice before by some of the “heavy hitters” of OPM.

kindly point me to those responses? by the way wierd is a guest handle

wierd wrote:
kindly point me to those responses? by the way wierd is a guest handle


There were numerous responses to some similar responses that you had on this thread .
Quote:
as far as the science sections go....how should i approach those sections? they say it only covers sciences from the first 2 years of college but the passages seem arcane and so removed from the basic concepts. I get so bogged down in the fine minusia of the passages i easily get overwhelmed.


To me, both your issues with the VR and your issues with the science passages seem to point with some sort of reading comprehension problem. If you haven't already, I suggest that you consider some sort of reading comprehension course, or taking a Kaplan or Princeton review course for help with this. I didn't really feel that the passages were that arcane. They are designed to see if you can pick out the relevant information from the passage to answer the question(s). Try reading the question(s) first and then keep them in mind when reading the passage.
Quote:
i'm 34 in Phoenix and up till this point have been floundering in my life for the past 10 years not having done anything with stretches of unemployment interspersed and even at one time been homeless living out on the street. single, male, 3.8+gpa with bs in bio about a decade ago.


This concerns me a little. Not the homeless or floundering part. I'm assuming that you have overcome this. Rather, that the above implies that you have not taken any coursework in the past 10 years. If so, I STRONGLY to encourage you to consider taking some upper level science courses. Mostly so that you prove to adcoms that you have some direction in your life, but also so that you show that you still have the ability to do serious science work.
Quote:
i'm eyeing to take the mcats in january on the cbt formate............i'm really stressing. I've been topping out at 27-28's on the practices...........i can't seem to go beyound that.........am i finished before i even start? should i postpone the mcats again till april? i want to get at least a 35...but realistically hoping for at least 30.


A 27-28 is around the average for accepted med school applicants. (I'm thinking its actually 28-29). Many, many people get into medical schools with a 27-28. The MCAT is one component of the overall application. If you can't do better than that, then look at other ways to improve your application. Your GPA is good, I'll talk about some other aspects below.
Quote:
i've been trying to get volunteer gig at local hospital but nothing. i've also contacted private practice doctors in the area to see if i could shadow them......it's a no go. any suggestions on how to get med experience starting asap? i'm out of ideas.


Enrolling in a couple of courses may be a good way to make these contacts. Many schools have pre-med societies that provide opportunities for clinical experience and contacts for shadowing. Most hospitals are desperate for volunteers. Do they truly have no opportunities for volunteering or do they just not have any opportunities that interest you? If its the latter, keep in mind that often you have to start at the bottom of the food chain and work your way up.

Another consideration is to get a volunteer or paid gig somewhere other than a hospital. I'm going to guess that you are lacking clinical experience.

Anyways . . . must leave for an appointment. If you are interested, I can expound on my thoughts for clinical experience later on.

Amy

Dear “wierd,”


I’ll start by admitting that an internet forum is very informal, that people don’t work to make their posts particularly grammatically correct or even coherent sometimes, and that in many ways our “conversations” are the screen equivalent of a chat over drinks in a bar. But even allowing for all that, your presentation is … um … a little hard to follow and harder to respond to.


You are obviously a smart guy, having gotten a great GPA in school and getting very good scores on practice MCATs. But you seem a little inappropriately single-minded about the MCAT, to the point of obsession. As others have pointed out, where’s the rest of your application? It’s so much more than numbers – what else do you have? You did classwork a long time ago; what has happened since? You were a darn good undergrad student but clearly things kinda fell apart after college - what’s your explanation?


You are driven to get a great MCAT score; are you driven to become a doctor? Why?


I am not asking these questions to be a jerk; I really want to prod you to consider these questions and work at presenting yourself as a much more complete applicant than what you’ve done to this point. As for advice, my suggestion is that you quit worrying about your MCAT score and instead do some very serious thinking about how you are going to put together the whole package of your application. Numbers get you in the door but the rest of the application is what keeps you inside.


Good luck!


Mary

Firstly thank you all for your responses. At this point, do you guys think I should firstly go for a masters degree and then apply to med school then? Do med schools now REQUIRE that applicants have taken courses WITHIN the past 5 years? (I’ve taken upper level undergrad bioinformatics class on scholarship within past 3 years and come out with an A.) (I really have no passion to do anything but medicine at this point. I don’t have the desire to take courses and study things I’m not interested in just to proove to the med schools that i’m still worthy. Having said that, I can relatively easily get into a masters program right now.)


I have no doubt i’ll hail arse when i take the med classes. I’m yenning to be a med student studying all those things that will be apropo for the usmle and becoming a doctor.


As far as why the inconsistancies, I have had bouts of depression. Had them in college as well, but always managed to keep ahead of studies.


i have my reasons for wanting to be a doctor. it just makes sense for me.


As far as volunteering goes, i’ve volunteered at several nonmedical organizations doing anything put clinical or medical related mostly outdoor stuff.

Emergency! wrote:
wierd wrote:
kindly point me to those responses? by the way wierd is a guest handle


There were numerous responses to some similar responses that you had on this thread .
Quote:
as far as the science sections go....how should i approach those sections? they say it only covers sciences from the first 2 years of college but the passages seem arcane and so removed from the basic concepts. I get so bogged down in the fine minusia of the passages i easily get overwhelmed.


To me, both your issues with the VR and your issues with the science passages seem to point with some sort of reading comprehension problem. If you haven't already, I suggest that you consider some sort of reading comprehension course, or taking a Kaplan or Princeton review course for help with this. I didn't really feel that the passages were that arcane. They are designed to see if you can pick out the relevant information from the passage to answer the question(s). Try reading the question(s) first and then keep them in mind when reading the passage.
Quote:
i'm 34 in Phoenix and up till this point have been floundering in my life for the past 10 years not having done anything with stretches of unemployment interspersed and even at one time been homeless living out on the street. single, male, 3.8+gpa with bs in bio about a decade ago.


This concerns me a little. Not the homeless or floundering part. I'm assuming that you have overcome this. Rather, that the above implies that you have not taken any coursework in the past 10 years. If so, I STRONGLY to encourage you to consider taking some upper level science courses. Mostly so that you prove to adcoms that you have some direction in your life, but also so that you show that you still have the ability to do serious science work.
Quote:
i'm eyeing to take the mcats in january on the cbt formate............i'm really stressing. I've been topping out at 27-28's on the practices...........i can't seem to go beyound that.........am i finished before i even start? should i postpone the mcats again till april? i want to get at least a 35...but realistically hoping for at least 30.


A 27-28 is around the average for accepted med school applicants. (I'm thinking its actually 28-29). Many, many people get into medical schools with a 27-28. The MCAT is one component of the overall application. If you can't do better than that, then look at other ways to improve your application. Your GPA is good, I'll talk about some other aspects below.
Quote:
i've been trying to get volunteer gig at local hospital but nothing. i've also contacted private practice doctors in the area to see if i could shadow them......it's a no go. any suggestions on how to get med experience starting asap? i'm out of ideas.


Enrolling in a couple of courses may be a good way to make these contacts. Many schools have pre-med societies that provide opportunities for clinical experience and contacts for shadowing. Most hospitals are desperate for volunteers. Do they truly have no opportunities for volunteering or do they just not have any opportunities that interest you? If its the latter, keep in mind that often you have to start at the bottom of the food chain and work your way up.

Another consideration is to get a volunteer or paid gig somewhere other than a hospital. I'm going to guess that you are lacking clinical experience.

Anyways . . . must leave for an appointment. If you are interested, I can expound on my thoughts for clinical experience later on.

Amy


Amy,

Really appreciate your reply. could you tell me about possible ways of getting some substantive clinical related experience on such a short notice? I'm gonna go knocking on the volunteer office of the local hospitals again. So what your saying is that it doesn't have to be shadowing doctors per say? All of the positions they had were not related to getting to see doctors at work but quite removed from that....like volunteering at the visitor store in the lobby or something.

I think for the reading comprehension bit....I've read kaplan, ek and tpr's strategies for reading comprehension and tried them all but i just doesn't work. I think it's my speed. i think it may have something to do with the fact that my eyes are not as fast as they once were.

the other thing i was wondering about is are there any suppliments that i can start taking that you would recommend that will help with focusing and concentration? i'm exercising regularly (jogging and biking).

thanks a bunch....i'm running scared!
Quote:
At this point, do you guys think I should firstly go for a masters degree and then apply to med school then? Do med schools now REQUIRE that applicants have taken courses WITHIN the past 5 years? (I've taken upper level undergrad bioinformatics class on scholarship within past 3 years and come out with an A.)



My opinion, which is just that - an opinion, is that you should strongly consider SOME kind of formalized coursework program. While most med schools don't REQUIRE that your pre-reqs be within X number of years, most of them "strongly recommend" that they be no more than 5 - 7 years old. They have been known to waive that requirement for applicants with advanced science degrees, outstanding MCAT scores and the like, but that is the exception rather than the rule.
Quote:
(I really have no passion to do anything but medicine at this point. I don't have the desire to take courses and study things I'm not interested in just to proove to the med schools that i'm still worthy. Having said that, I can relatively easily get into a masters program right now.)

I have no doubt i'll hail arse when i take the med classes. I'm yenning to be a med student studying all those things that will be apropo for the usmle and becoming a doctor.


Not to be harsh, but this is not the attitude you should be taking. Med schools have their pick of very outstanding applicants. For the vast majority of us, that means we have very little choice but to prove to the medical schools that we are worthy. Because of your lack of stability over the past several years, you probably have more work to do than the average applicant to prove that you are worthy of your consideration. Fair? Maybe not, but that's the way it is. There's a lot of jumping through hoops to get into medical school and it doesn't stop once you get in. If you aren't willing to jump through the hoops to get into medical school, why should a school believe that you are willing/capable of jumping through the hoops to get THROUGH medical school?

Also - there will be plenty of things in medical school that you will not be interested in that you will have to study. I (and I suspect most of my classmates) wish that we were fascinated with every aspect of our medical school coursework, but that just doesn't happen. It's just like anything else you do in life - you have to jump through a certain amount of hoops and do things that you don't really enjoy/interest you in order to get to the ultimate goal. There is an incredible amount of BS that goes on in medical education.

Being "interested" in studying things does not a successful medical student make. I took an extremely heavy load of science courses while preparing to get into medical school and honestly believed that if I could handle that, medical school would be a cakewalk. I was WRONG. I struggled quite a bit last year - definitley more than I ever thought I would.

Quote:
As far as why the inconsistancies, I have had bouts of depression. Had them in college as well, but always managed to keep ahead of studies.

i have my reasons for wanting to be a doctor. it just makes sense for me.


The inconsistencies are going to be a problem for you. As is the depression issues. Many, if not most, people will advise you that your depression is not something that you are going to want to disclose during the application process. Despite the advances in medicine with treating/recognizing the biological basis of mental illnesses and depression, there is still a lot of discrimination out there towards people with these issues. Unfortunately, that means you are going to need to work even harder than most to overcome your past, be it a masters degree, more coursework, or just establishing a trend of stability in general.

This is an internet forum - you don't have to explain to us why you want to be a doctor. However, you are going to have to be able to articulate in your personal statement and in interviews why you want to be a doctor. Non-trads often get scrutinized closer in this area than traditional students. You will get a lot of "Why medicine? Why now?" questions and a response "It just makes sense for me" isn't going to cut it. Again - I realize you may have better articulated reasons than that statement that you don't feel like sharing with us, but if you don't have a better answer to the why medicine? question that that, you really need to start working on one.

Quote:
As far as volunteering goes, i've volunteered at several nonmedical organizations doing anything put clinical or medical related mostly outdoor stuff.


This is great that you have non-medical related volunteer work. I encourage you to keep that up.

Quote:
could you tell me about possible ways of getting some substantive clinical related experience on such a short notice? I'm gonna go knocking on the volunteer office of the local hospitals again. So what your saying is that it doesn't have to be shadowing doctors per say? All of the positions they had were not related to getting to see doctors at work but quite removed from that....like volunteering at the visitor store in the lobby or something.


Well - my ideas for getting clinical experience didn't necessarily include "short notice". I'm operating under the assumption that you have some work to do to buff your application and really should consider doing that for a year or so before applying. I'm not totally surprised at the hospital volunteering positions that are available. Lots of people would like have patient contact/physician contact with volunteering. That is why I said that you might have to start in such a position in order to get "in". Once you are an official volunteer in the hospital, you may find that there are indeed positions volunteering where you have patient/physician contact but they are reserved for those volunteers who have proven themselves to them. It is worth asking to them if any such positions exist and will those opportunities be available to you if you volunteer for X amount of time doing whatever position they are initially offering you.

Since you already have volunteer experience, you don't need to have clinical volunteer experience. You just need clinical and/or research experience. You didn't mention your job situation, but you could consider looking for a part-time job that will get you some of that clinical experience. Nursing assistant training is usually pretty short and there is a great need for nursing assistant/patient care assistants in a variety of settings.

As for the shadowing - no, I am not saying you don't need shadowing. I had a lot of clinical experience and was still asked a lot about shadowing. Unfortunately, due to privacy regulations, shadowing has become tougher and tougher to do. This is where having a part-time job or volunteer gig in a nursing home/hospital will help you. Even if its not a clinical position, the fact that you have gone through the privacy regulation training at a facility will help you in getting people to let you shadow them.

Can you contact one of your physicians/psychologists/psychiatrists and ask them to assist you in locating someone to shadow with? While they may not let you shadow with them, perhaps they will be willing to assist you in finding someone to shadow with.

Quote:
I think for the reading comprehension bit....I've read kaplan, ek and tpr's strategies for reading comprehension and tried them all but i just doesn't work. I think it's my speed. i think it may have something to do with the fact that my eyes are not as fast as they once were.


I suggest you see an optometrist or opthalamologist to evaluate this problem then, especially if you feel that your ability to read has decreased over time. You don't appear from your postings to be so old that experiencing such a decline in your eye/reading function should be normal. Perhaps there is some medical reason why your eyes don't seem to move as fast as they used to (focus problems, etc.) Your answer may be as simple as reading glasses, even if you don't feel like your eyesight itself has declined.

As for focusing, regular exercise certainly can't hurt and there are of course herbal supplements out there that claim to help with focusing/mental function. To the best of my knowledge though, none of them has any scientifc studies backing those claims up.

So - to wrap a long post up - please take into serious consideration the things I have said above and Mary said in her post. Neither of us are trying to discourage you from pursuing a dream of applying to medical school, but we wouldn't be doing you any favors if we didn't point out any obstacles or difficulties we thought you might face. As for the age of your pre-reqs, no one except the medical schools can tell you for sure whether or not they are going to accept them. I encouarage you to contact them and get the word straight from them. I know that when you have made up your mind that medical school is something you want to pursue, there is an overwhelming desire to try and get in as fast as possible. This is not always the best strategy, though. Think about it - are you better off spending an extra year or two NOW taking some coursework, setting a record of stability, accumulating some clinical experience, etc and submitting the best possible application you can or submitting an application that is less than the best you can do now? Applying to medical school is a long, complicated process. You don't want to have to do it more than once.

Good luck.

PS - any of you computer whizzes out there have ANY idea why the #$%@ quote function doesn't seem to work in my posts? I have tried typing the html code in manually and using the "quote" button on the posting tool bar. I don't understand why the "bold" function seems to work but not the "quote" function.

Well, Emergency! has said it all which means I should probably just stop right here, but I want to tack on a few of my own thoughts related to the specific things that are different about a non-trad’s application.


When you are in your late 20s, 30s, 40s or even older and you want to do something that conventional wisdom dictates you’d do fresh out of college at the age of 22, you are going to be especially carefully scrutinized for several things (listed in no particular order):

  1. do you know what you are getting into?

  2. have you demonstrated dedication in the other things you’ve done up to this point?

  3. do you still (or did you ever) have the academic chops to perform at a medical school level?

  4. are you a flake? – or – are you mature?


    A strong application to medical school will answer these questions in a way that’s reassuring to the school.


    1. Do you know what you are getting into?


    – here’s where shadowing or other clinical exposure is key. Traditional applicants are also expected to know what the current field of medicine is like, and even those whose moms or dads are doctors are expected to have experience that has given them a first-hand look at the practice of medicine now.


    – just as traditional students will be pushed to demonstrate that they’re not still acting out a pre-pubertal fantasy about being a doctor, so will non-trad students be prodded to demonstrate that they aren’t simply chasing a long-held dream that has never really been acted upon in any realistic way.


    2. Have you demonstrated dedication in the other things you’ve done up to this point?


    – There are a couple things at work in the mind of AdCom members when they consider this attribute in a non-trad. For one thing, community involvement - just as the trads are expected to to have done community service, certainly so are the non-trads, and more and deeper service considering that when you’re 30 or 35 you’ve presumably had more opportunities. Another thing would be work- and/or education-related: to be blunt, they want to be sure that you’ve done well at your previous work and academic endeavours and that you’re not latching on to medicine because you’ve screwed up everywhere else. It is FINE to say, “I took pride in my work as a ditch digger and received numerous awards for the quality of my work, but over time I came to realize that the work was not allowing me to utilize my other talents.” It is NOT OK to say, “I held several jobs but none of them really appealed to me because I realized I’d rather be practicing medicine.” That is going to set off a bunch of bright red flashing lights!


    – For the OP, since you did in fact struggle in earlier years, this is going to be a particularly challenging thing to demonstrate. I don’t know that you will be able to illustrate your journey to this decision without addressing your depression… but you are going to need to present it as something that initially kept you from seeing what you needed to do and where you needed to go, and demonstrate clearly that now that you are well, you’re able to be much more goal-oriented.


    3. Do you have the academic chops?


    – Honestly, this is the easiest thing to demonstrate. You take old grades, new grades, grades in science courses, grades in other kinds of courses, MCAT scores, etc. etc. It’s very quantitative. Either you’re going to be able to demonstrate that you’ve got it, or you aren’t. There are some nitty-gritty points to this but the overall thing is, you gotta have some decent numbers to back you up.


    4. Are you a flake? Are you mature?


    – This kind of goes back to my discussion for question #2. Medical schools don’t want degree-collectors or capricious career-changers or folks who aren’t realistic or - forgive me - people who are still trying to sort out their personal issues. (I am NOT implying that is what you are doing; I’m saying that you will need to convince them of that, however!) They don’t want any of their students - whether 21 or 41 - starting medical school only to realize that they’ve made a big mistake. Their expectation of a non-trad is very high in this regard, because they figure that someone who’s been out in the work force should have learned how to discern what’s right for them. (Trads get cut a little more slack.)


    It is a real challenge to convey these notions in the few brief pages that make up a med school application.


    Transcript and MCAT scores will answer the question about your academic preparation.


    Listing of job and volunteer activities will demonstrate the sorts of things you’ve been involved with over time.


    Letters of recommendation will back up the things you claim about your work ethic and performance. (note that getting good academic LORs is another reason to have recent coursework. AdComs want to know if you can hack it in med school, not so much what a great person you are.)


    Your personal statement ties it all together as a narrative that demonstrates that you’ve been following a path that now leads you to med school. Your PS is your chance to explain what the detours were in the past, how you came to realize the path you needed to be on, what you did to achieve your goals. The PS is KEY for a non-trad; I view it like the final argument in a court case because it ties together all the stuff that’s laid out elsewhere in your application, puts your own persona onto all that data, and makes the case for why you should be there.


    You closed your last post by describing yourself as “running scared.” I would counsel that you should instead be sitting, engaging in contemplation or even meditation, considering what you’ve achieved to this point and pondering what more you need to achieve in order to attain your goal. Once you know yourself and can articulate what you’re after, the process will be much less daunting. Good luck!


    Mary

Just want to say thank you for giving me a sense of where I am right now. I appreciate the words of guidance and advice.


I’m thankfull for this forum where someone like me can turn to for some guidance.