I’ve seen the attitude on other boards. “What’s the minimum score I need to be competitive…”
Perhaps they’re looking to see what they definately need but are trying to do better.
I try for straight A’s, but I try not to get TOO worked up about a B, although I find it disappointing (and that’s silly to type since at one time in my life, all I cared about was passing…and I use “care” loosely).
While we’re ranting…
I get a little tired of D.O. being the second best option if you don’t get the scores to get into an M.D. program. The way some (not on this board, but I’ve seen on others) act is as if D.O. is a back up plan. “If I can’t get into an MD program, for sure I’ll be able to swing a DO”. I find it a litle disturbing since these are two different philosophies to medicine, correct?
Also, I’ve been thinking…wouldn’t a D.O. school be just as competitive? Especially since there are more applicants with lower scores with less seats in a D.O. school? At times I wonder if a D.O. program is percieved as something easy to get into.
And again, it’s a different approach and one I would hope would be taken seriously instead of a means to get the title of Dr. Maybe this takes it too far, but wouldn’t it be comparable to just change religions?
To me, it just breeds the “MD is better than DO” mentality when they are equal.
Someone tell me to shut up if I need to. If I’m spewing BS, I’d like to know about it.
Actually, I was recently shocked by the fact that getting into the Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine is apparently much more difficult than getting into the UT med school system. In addition to the normal 1 year of physics, chem and ochem, they require 14 hours of biology, plus their minimum MCAT scores are (apparently) higher.
If I were a Genie, (which I am not) I would wish that everyone would realize that medicine is medicine is medicine. Yes, there are nuts and quacks, but they exist in every profession. And if doctors don’t start working together on the really big issues of the day (healthcare as a system), then some government bureaucrat is going to come along and mandate their lives for them. It’s already happening in Taxachussetts and it is creeping steadily westard.
Jeffc
By the way, isn’t Asbestos a carcinogen?
Jeffc
I want to second what Mary says about time…from the wrong side of the grade tracks. When I decided to go to med school, I applied directly (in Australia), and didn’t get in. Someone asked me if taking 2 years to improve my application was too much work – and at the time, I just couldn’t imagine doing that. Ferpetessake I was already nontrad & getting older!
Then I decided to do the prereqs–but I didn’t give myself the best possible situation. What I mean is that I started them when I knew my folks were both going to pass away, and I would be in charge not just at the end, to settle matters, but to make all those decisions along the way that are so all-consuming, not to mention the emotional issues.
I did it because I just didn’t want to put off my life any more – our family life had revolved around my dad’s health, and I just wanted to get going on my newly-chosen career.
So, for the best of reasons, I made a poor choice.
Barb
Wackie, I think your point is excellent. It bothers me too, the whole stigma of osteopathic medicine. It’s pure politics, and money, imo… and (ok this is a can of worms, but what the heck) there has been a longstanding incestuous relationship between allopathic medicine and the unbelievably wealthy pharmaceutical industry for decades.
I originally wanted to be a D.O., and not even apply to an allopathic school, but I have seen over the years (as was posted on this thread too) that it has nothing to do with whether there is a D.O. or an M.D. after your name. There are extraordinary docs in both arenas, and quacks in both arenas. However, the fact that you have to “explain” yourself (as one person put it) after killing yourself for 6 - 11 years, because some people don’t even know what a D.O. is, or the fact that you can’t practice freely in as many other international countries as a D.O. compared to an M.D., or the fact that you will possibly have some degree of predjudice against you as a D.O. applying to certain residencies… it all really sticks in my craw. It’s so true - medicine is medicine. Aside from the manipulative medicine part, it’s basically the same two schools of information.
The whole thing about D.O. being the “second best option” bugs me too. I would rather be a D.O. than an M.D., and all things equal, even though I’m applying to both sets, D.O. would win out (aside from some geographical considerations) every time. I think I’m a better D.O. candidate because of my life experiences, however. I also think I would do extremely well in a PBL type school situation, and I’m not sure if there are allopathic schools that use this method (I’m sure there probably are, but I don’t know which ones specifically, as opposed to knowing that about some D.O. schools).
Anyway, just wanted to support your rant. It’s definitely one of mine too.
Sam
HI there,
Just to add my own 2 cents on this matter…
I am in my mid-forties and originally had planned to go back just to do my pre-reqs in 2 years and then apply to med school; however in my 2nd year, I realized I just could not handle orgo and physics at the same time, so I had to delay my plan for a year.
Since that happened and since I am borrowing ALL of the money to go to school, I decided I should go ahead and get a 2nd bachelors degree, which I am now doing and don’t regret the extra time at all. If anything, it has made me a more confident and better student.
Also, another very important point to consider is that I found out that different med schools have their own requirements in addition to the basic ones needed. I am planning on going to a DO school and the school I want to go to requires additional biology, bio chem, and genetics, because they do not teach these specific classes in their program. Once I found this out, then it was a no-brainer for me to complete my 2nd degree, and take 4 years instead of trying to cram it into 2 years.
Yes, it means that I will now be in my mid-50s before I am an actual practicing physician, but for me this path is not about the time, but about fulfilling a lifelong passion for being a health care practitioner and combining my love for alternative medicine with the mainstream medicine approach!
Of course, I don’t have a family to worry about supporting so that has made things easier in that regard, but overall, I’d say that if this is your complete and total passion in life to complete, then give it the time and energy it deserves and ENJOY the process! Its way too intense and long, not to enjoy it!
Blessings,
Carey
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I did it because I just didn’t want to put off my life any more – our family life had revolved around my dad’s health, and I just wanted to get going on my newly-chosen career.Barb
You’ve hit on what I think are the most important considerations for nontrads: patience and timing.
I was accepted to med school years ago, but didn’t matriculate because of family reasons. I spent the next few years working on my PhD and 2 different schools, “focusing” on the MCAT, striving for at least a 30 but fell pretty short of that goal. Hard work, check! Time off for study, check! Right time in my personal life to be pursuing academic goals? DEFINITELY no check on this one.
Looking back, I realized that I needed a LOT more time than I ever imagined to deal with being a divorced parent, grieving the death of a parent, all while supporting myself and my child hundreds of miles away from family. And this has been quite difficult. However, what I should have done was taken a “break” for myself and my child and lived a “normal life” for the first time in many, many years.
Now I’m remarried with a more realistic goal set for when I can pursue in earnest medical school admissions. I’ve put the “I’m getting older, let me do this ASAP” notion aside and will apply whenever I feel best prepared, mentally, financially, and academically to do so.
Timing and patience. My 2 new best friends!
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In terms of “why this thread now?” - I don’t know what comments Judy has in mind. The ones that have concerned me at times are (in no particular order, and this isn’t necessarily recent threads): distance learning for prereqs, community college, “oh don’t worry about a C - I got one too” sorts of posts, and “I had a full-time job and 3 kids so couldn’t study enough to get higher than a B” sorts of posts. There are probably more but those are the ones that pop into mind… and I am fully aware that this is pretty much like lobbing a hand grenade into the room but you guys asked… (ducking, looking for the asbestos suit)
When I have time in the late evening I like to sit down for a bit and browse some of the forum topics on OPM. Sometimes I post something, or respond to a thread. Many times there are enough wise words already that I just nod and don’t type anything. But in reading these over the long haul, I feel that some folks don’t grasp the level of dedication it takes to get into medical school. (I’ll let Mary, Nat, Dave, etc. speak to what it takes to get back out of medical school - and beyond - …that’s not my area of expertise.) Mary hit the nail on the head as to what I was talking about. And I agree that this is a minority of people posting on OPM. But we’re all reading these forums because we want to help each other in whatever way we can. I have knowledge to share from the pre-med advising side (both at Stanford and in my own consulting business) and the voting-member-of-an-admissions-committee side. I know from both sides what out-of-this-world applicants look like and I know what applicants who are trying to slide through and cut corners look like. I want you all to be, as much as you possible can within the constraints of your own lives, the the WOW! applicant.
It certainly would seem that I stirred up a a hornet’s nest here, and I hope Mary will share her asbestos suit.
Cheers,
Judy
Hey Judy,
I think that your comments brought out some things that needed to be said. If for no other reason than for some to evaluate the “thought process” behind applying to medical school. This year, as you well know, applications have been running pretty high. There are no indications that there will be a great drop-off in the next couple of years.
“Pre-med obsessive-compulsive disorder” aside, I do believe that injecting a bit of thought process and “gut-check” is not a bad idea. Medicine is a very difficult job to do well and getting more difficult every year. Like you, I have seen too many applications that will blow you away both non-trad and trad.
Natalie
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The ones that have concerned me at times are (in no particular order, and this isn’t necessarily recent threads): distance learning for prereqs, community college, “oh don’t worry about a C - I got one too” sorts of posts, and “I had a full-time job and 3 kids so couldn’t study enough to get higher than a B” sorts of posts.
I think most of us here are mature enough to think that in general, highlighting these types of comments are meant to convey the message that med school admission is highly competitive and the “best of the best” students in the US are sparing no personal, financial or academic expense to achieve thier goals. However, the inherent assumption is that people making these types of comments aren’t giving 1000% and this is where the controversy begins. Perhaps for some, taking distance learning courses and/or community college courses is purposely taking the less difficult road to med school. But for others, it’s plain and simple the ONLY option for them financially.
Now for most of us posting on this site, we have spouses or others who were/are more than happy to help us achieve our goals but not everyone has a sugardaddy (Hubby
), sugarmama (Wife ), or comes from a career that paid extremely well before embarking on the premed path. Therefore I think it’s important to emphasize excellence in academics, but to temper that with realities of the process and solid advice and support for those who are truly doing the best they can in their current circumstances. Will that be enough for them to be admitted to med school? In some cases yes, others no.I can remember all to well meeting with a dean/adcom at a med school 11 many years ago and hearing him tell me that in order to be admitted to med school, I was either going to focus on getting good grades or working because doing both well while applying to med school would be near impossible. I was so hurt that I cried the 150 miles I had to drive back home. But soon realized that he was absolutely right, but he was also very wrong. Giving me a dose of reality without being willing to help me devise a solid plan for getting myself together is irresponsible for a person who is supposed to advise premed students. As we have seen in the examples on this site, ANYTHING can be overcome with the proper combination of hard work, motivation and tenacity. Reality is great but not as great as reality with a viable plan.
Although most folks with tenacity, motivation, DO get in this is not the case for ALL folks. Some folks no matter how much they want it and how tenacious they are will never make it for whatever reason…
After reading all of your posts I have decided to become a lawyer.
(just checking)
jeffc
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I can remember all to well meeting with a dean/adcom at a med school 11 many years ago and hearing him tell me that in order to be admitted to med school, I was either going to focus on getting good grades or working because doing both well while applying to med school would be near impossible. I was so hurt that I cried the 150 miles I had to drive back home. But soon realized that he was absolutely right, but he was also very wrong. Giving me a dose of reality without being willing to help me devise a solid plan for getting myself together is irresponsible for a person who is supposed to advise premed students. As we have seen in the examples on this site, ANYTHING can be overcome with the proper combination of hard work, motivation and tenacity. Reality is great but not as great as reality with a viable plan.
Just to clarify some expectations that applicants may have about advising help from a med school admissions office…for the most part (and of course there are exceptions) admissions offices are not set up to do advising with applicants. They may tell you what went wrong with your application, but it is unlikely that they will sit down with you and create a plan for admissions success. Admissions offices are rarely at the top of the food chain when it comes to the operating budget of a medical school, and therefore it is often the case that a small number of people are doing a huge amount of work. This cohort doesn’t usually include someone who can also do advising. (In fact, I get numerous referrals from med school admissions offices for this very reason.)
Cheers,
Judy
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for the most part (and of course there are exceptions) admissions offices are not set up to do advising with applicants. They may tell you what went wrong with your application, but it is unlikely that they will sit down with you and create a plan for admissions success.
I understand what you’re saying fromm a finincial perspective. But I have spoken with many, many admissions offices over the years and the ones truly interested in increasing their URM enrollment, DO have someone functioning as an advisor which makes sense because the majority of the URM premeds I knew/know can’t afford private consulting services.
I should add that the person I’m referring to WAS at UNC-Chapel Hill and was long ago “let go” for reasons I’m not clear about. UNC DOES have a staff in the Minority Affiars office that goes out of their way to advise students and help them develop plans for getting into med school.
Those of you who are older non-trads (over age 30) might want to check with the diversity office at your state schools also. “Diversity” doesn’t just encompass racial diversity, and I was able to get a ton of help through the office of diversity at my state school even though I am not a URM.
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I’m concerned by a slight undercurrent of thought that doing the minimum is probably good enough to get into medical school.
After giving this thread a LOT of thought, I have to wonder if an applicant with a major “flaw” in their application can EVER become a “well qualified” applicant to med school. Excluding for example, a person with 30 credit hours/2.5 GPA who can then make 4.0 for the next 90 hours and change her/his GPA.
In my case, my undergrad GPA (2.1) is there forever and while it didn’t come up the year I was admitted to med school, it has come up PLENTY when I talk to adcom members since then. And because of my undergrad GPA, it’s hard to imagine that with all the academic success I’ve had since then,that the general consensus would be that I’m now “well-qualified”. Right now, I’m happy being “admissible” which to me means a decent record of significant achievements some of which overcomes any flaws in the application. This is VERY different from being “well qualified” which to me is an applicant with all their ducks in a row and no “flaws”.
Anyone have else have an opinion on this?
My undergrad GPA ended up as 3.0 not horrendous but not terribly good and I had a couple of F’s and D’s. I did go on and get a masters degree and my pre-reqs which I took recently were 4.0.
I think the best example of whether or not you can get in with bad undergtrad record is oldmandave. Clearly he had a long row to how to make up for it but he wanted it and he did it. Presumably he was admitted because he was well qualified. His achievements to date seem to indicate this. I guess to make a short story long, my opinion is that you can have major flaws and be a wll qualified appicant. For whatever it is worth 
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I think the best example of whether or not you can get in with bad undergtrad record is oldmandave. Clearly he had a long row to how to make up for it but he wanted it and he did it. Presumably he was admitted because he was well qualified. His achievements to date seem to indicate this. I guess to make a short story long, my opinion is that you can have major flaws and be a wll qualified appicant. For whatever it is worth
I am flattered that you have mentioned this & I emphatically agree that flaws, major & minor, can be overcome. There are few things that are ‘death sentences’ - felony convictions & incarcerations to name two off of the top of my head.
But, with equal fervor, I will tell you that “wanting to be a doctor” - no matter how badly, even if you want it so badly that you can taste it - will not be sufficient to overcome past transgressions. The simple fact of the matter is that you must unequivocally prove you are capable of succeeding in an extremely high-pressure, rigorous academic environment. There is no way around that - period. The current ‘gold standard’ for doing so boils down to grades & MCAT. Now, that does not mean if you have very bad old grades, x-number of 'F’s or 'W’s you are automatically elminiated. What it does mean, esp if you (like me) will be/are battling a substandard transcript is that you MUST perform at your absolute best to clearly demonstrate that the old, poorly-performing pattern was an aberrancy & that the new, shiny, competitive grades are where you are capable of dwelling. Same rules apply to folks who bombed the MCAT a time or two - YOU MUST MAKE A STATEMENT that will ease the concerns of the AdCom members.
There is no way to erase underperformance - it will raise red flags & prompt more intense scrutiny of your application. So, use that fact to your advantage by performing at an exceptional level - the BEST you are capable of.
Prior to my return to Ugrad in 96, I had 90+ hrs w/ a cumGPA ~1.2…far too many hours to simply take few courses & bring it up. I graduated from UTDallas w/ a 3.88, missed summa cum laude by 0.02 points! However, my net cumGPA was still ONLY 2.6, cumsciGPA ~2.9. My MCAT, since I know you will ask, was 29 and either R or S - (V8 P11 B10). Those are solid, not stellar scores. But, I also had many years as a healthcare professional & a TON of leadership & extracurricular activities to augment the numbers. However, had I not made those numbers, all of the leadership & extracurrics in the world would not have helped in the least - period. There are no brownie points for being older, dealing with life, career & other obligations if you DO NOT have the academic credentials to make you competitive. If you have the numbers to be seen as competitive, all of those other things are huge feathers in your hat…BUT YOU MUST HAVE THE NUMBERS FIRST.
Please note that the absence of specific minimums & numbers is INTENTIONAL. There are no universal thresholds or magic combinations. And, you can certainly get in from a CC…not so sure about on-line courses, I just don’t know…but the people who do get in w/ all course from CCs, I suspect, are most likely not battling other skeletons in their application closet and they made stellar grades at the CC. If you have other “stuff” you are trying to overcome, then, if you can possibly avoid it, do not give the AdComs another reason to downgrade your credentials. If you cannot, for what ever reason, attend anything other than a CC - then by all menas, do it & do it with aplomb. But, be mature enough to acknowledge that this may incite additional scrutiny & hence hurdles to your application. Is this fair? I dunno.
In summation, what everyone is trying to say here is that this is a long hard road that requires phenomenal levels of drive, dedication & sacrifice - there is no other way to describe it & you simply cannot understand it unless you have lived through it. Simultaneously, it is one of the most challenging & rewarding things I have ever undertaken & I am honored & priviledged to have the opportunity to do this. It is not, was not & will not be my right to be a physician - it is something I earn every single day.
To thrive in this environment w/o loosing your mind & your concept of self, medicine must be your passion. However, that does not mean that all else in the world must cease to exist for you. That is where the art of balance comes into play - this is where, as a non-trad, we have a POTENTIAL advantage. You determine where the lines are drawn b/t personal & professional life. That line is different for everyone & is a dynamic equilibrium that must flex as you evolve personally, professionally & spritually.
I do not claim to know the path that is right for all nor does anyone else here on OPM> However, many of us freely donate significant portions of our personal & professional energy to develop OPM, participate in these forums & to construct the annual conference. None of us receive a single dime for doing this. We do it because of our passion for medicine & for OPM. The core of this organization has much of our “selves” invested in OPM & in the success of its members. That is a passion.
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I am flattered that you have mentioned this & I emphatically agree that flaws, major & minor, can be overcome.
I think we all agree that flaws can be overcome. As an example, I was fortunate enough to draw some STRONG MSTP interest last year during the brief time I was applying, despite the undergrad GPA and Low MCAT.
However, my question is about how to become a “well qualified” applicant and who is fortunate enough to be able to. I recognize that this is different depending on the school. For example, I was told flat out that I would NEVER be considered a strong applicant to Hopkins because of my undergrad GPA even if I could get a 30+ MCAT. They said that they have students applying to thier school with absolutely perfect applications so they can be selective about whom they choose to interview. Of course, this is not to say that I couldn’t get an interview or even get accepted just that my undergrad GPA puts me into another “category” of applicants.
I guess my point in bringing all this up is that because so many nontrads have “flaws” in their applications it’s VERY important to select schools, particularly MD schools, very carefully to maximize our chances for success.
Nice post, Dave… very enheartening. Thanks.
Sam
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However, my question is about how to become a “well qualified” applicant and who is fortunate enough to be able to. I recognize that this is different depending on the school. For example, I was told flat out that I would NEVER be considered a strong applicant to Hopkins because of my undergrad GPA even if I could get a 30+ MCAT. They said that they have students applying to thier school with absolutely perfect applications so they can be selective about whom they choose to interview. Of course, this is not to say that I couldn’t get an interview or even get accepted just that my undergrad GPA puts me into another “category” of applicants.
I guess my point in bringing all this up is that because so many nontrads have “flaws” in their applications it’s VERY important to select schools, particularly MD schools, very carefully to maximize our chances for success.
This last point of yours is an excellent one. Before I applied last summer, I called every school that interested me and explained my situation: my pre-reqs are all 10+ years old; my undergrad was completely P/F (all of my pre-reqs were therefore taken P/F); and I am earning my PhD in organic chemistry. Most schools said that they would consider my graduate GPA, and that I would need to score exceptionally on the MCAT to be competitive. (The schools that asked what my MCAT score was did think that it was “exceptional” enough.
) One major exception was Johns Hopkins, the same school that you mentioned. Once I was finally able to get through in their ridiculous window from 2-4 when they are even willing to speak to people, Johns Hopkins flat-out told me that I shouldn’t bother applying. So, I didn’t. And I believe that this was an excellent decision on my part, because it would have been foolish for me to apply to a school that told me up front that I would not have a reasonable chance of admission, even though my current academic credentials (PhD GPA = 4.00, MCAT = 43S) are superior to many of their traditional applicants’ credentials, and certainly on par with any of them.What I’m trying to say is this: if you know that a school is going to put inordinate amounts of emphasis on undergrad GPA, and yours is not up to par for whatever reason, don’t apply to that school. Pick schools that will give your recent work more weight. How do you find out what your dream school will do? Well, all you have to do is call the admissions office and ask. A few hours of calls now can save you a ton of time and money and heartache in the long run. And a word of encouragement for you all: most medical schools are NOT like Johns Hopkins. In my experience, their attitude was the exception, not the norm.