Those are amazing academic and MCAT stats. Incredible, imo.
Sucks for Johns Hopkins I guess that they weren’t willing to look beyond undergrad. Maybe they prefer snot-nosed kids with straight A’s and zero common sense who don’t know much about life yet for a reason? Makes it easier to run them through the ol’ brainwash mill? 
Wild conjecture, and half-joking, but still it is strange…
Reminds me actually of something my dad used to say. He worked for the U.S. Bureau of Mines for about 30 years. They used to hire applicants straight out of Colorado School of Mines (the elite math/engineering/earth science school here in CO), and would generally not even interview straight A students, but would go for GPA’s between 2.5 and 3.2, as they found them to generally be a lot better in the workplace with both social skills and common sense. Just food for thought.
Sam
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However, my question is about how to become a “well qualified” applicant and who is fortunate enough to be able to. I recognize that this is different depending on the school. For example, I was told flat out that I would NEVER be considered a strong applicant to Hopkins because of my undergrad GPA even if I could get a 30+ MCAT. They said that they have students applying to thier school with absolutely perfect applications so they can be selective about whom they choose to interview. Of course, this is not to say that I couldn’t get an interview or even get accepted just that my undergrad GPA puts me into another “category” of applicants.
I guess my point in bringing all this up is that because so many nontrads have “flaws” in their applications it’s VERY important to select schools, particularly MD schools, very carefully to maximize our chances for success.
This last point of yours is an excellent one. Before I applied last summer, I called every school that interested me and explained my situation: my pre-reqs are all 10+ years old; my undergrad was completely P/F (all of my pre-reqs were therefore taken P/F); and I am earning my PhD in organic chemistry. Most schools said that they would consider my graduate GPA, and that I would need to score exceptionally on the MCAT to be competitive. (The schools that asked what my MCAT score was did think that it was “exceptional” enough.) One major exception was Johns Hopkins, the same school that you mentioned. Once I was finally able to get through in their ridiculous window from 2-4 when they are even willing to speak to people, Johns Hopkins flat-out told me that I shouldn’t bother applying. So, I didn’t. And I believe that this was an excellent decision on my part, because it would have been foolish for me to apply to a school that told me up front that I would not have a reasonable chance of admission, even though my current academic credentials (PhD GPA = 4.00, MCAT = 43S) are superior to many of their traditional applicants’ credentials, and certainly on par with any of them.
What I’m trying to say is this: if you know that a school is going to put inordinate amounts of emphasis on undergrad GPA, and yours is not up to par for whatever reason, don’t apply to that school. Pick schools that will give your recent work more weight. How do you find out what your dream school will do? Well, all you have to do is call the admissions office and ask. A few hours of calls now can save you a ton of time and money and heartache in the long run. And a word of encouragement for you all: most medical schools are NOT like Johns Hopkins. In my experience, their attitude was the exception, not the norm.
That’s incredible that they told you to not even bother applying with a perfect GPA and those kind of MCAT scores. That strikes me as very unprofessional on the part of John Hopkins. Maybe the arrogance in which they view their medical school is an indicator of what you would have to deal with going to that medical school. If so, it definitely sounds like you’re better off not wasting your time with them!
We all have stereotypes about people. A non-trad with a poor overall GPA might just as easily be thought of as “lazy” or “academically deficient,” unless you are willing to look at the trends in their grades and see how they did recently. Conversely, a straight-A trad student might be thought of as being “socially inept” and someone who does nothing but study, like the example you gave. I don’t agree with holding good grades against trads. There are a lot of incredible trad applicants who have done amazing things in research, sports, the arts, etc. all while pulling those great grades.
I also don’t hold it against Johns Hopkins for not wanting to give me a chance. They have their standards, and they’re entitled to make them however they choose, even if they are unreasonable in my opinion or yours. At least they were honest with me, and I respect them for that. The school simply isn’t the right fit for me, and it was good to know that before I applied rather than after.
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I also don’t hold it against Johns Hopkins for not wanting to give me a chance. They have their standards, and they’re entitled to make them however they choose, even if they are unreasonable in my opinion or yours. At least they were honest with me, and I respect them for that. The school simply isn’t the right fit for me, and it was good to know that before I applied rather than after.
Very well put & an astute observation that I think many people do not understand. No matter who they accept, each program faces a significant risk for each & every student the accept & decline. They risked declining someone who will turn out to be the next Albert Schwitzer or cure cancer. On the other hand, they have made a massive commitment of resources to each person they accept. They know full & well that the “normal” loss rate is approx 10%, the majority of which are students lost prior to completion of their MS-2 year (I recall reading somewhere that 98% of those that complete year 2 go on to graduate).
There is a ton of mutual risk involved in this evolving relationship b/t the program & accepted med student. So, in lieu of viewing this as a will0nilly competition, try to massage your perspective such that you see it is a relationship where both parties are seeking to maximize their potential for gain/success while exposing themselves to acceptable levels of risk - much like a common business paradigm.
Each program is its own gatekeeper, which allows it enormous levity in how it selects applicants to allow into their program. In state-subsidized programs, there is significant external pressures that modify the selection paradigm - where the $$ goes, they must follow. Over all though, they are seeking to admit people who will thrive in the environment that they offer. The systems are far from perfect, but they are what they are because they have evolved to produce the results each program seeks. As an applicant, you are responsible for learning what it is that they are seeking, ensuring that it fits you & then maximizing your potential for acceptance.
The onus of responsibility is 100% on the part of the applicants. There is no culpability for the programs & there should not be, in my humble opinion. Becoming a physician is an honor & a priviledge and not a right, by any stretch of the imagination. And, many of those who seek it will not succeed. In essence, the programs owe you nothing that yo have not earned in their eyes. And, since they are the sole possessors of the prize - a seat in medical school - they get to call the shots. Of course, this is within certain legal parameters of reason: should not/cannot discriminate during admissions based on characteristics that have no bearing on someone’s capacity to become a physician (race, religion, ethnicity and so on). To imply otherwise would be no different than to imply that Ford or GM should separately price their autos based upon a customer’s relative desire for a truck or car. That is nonsense.
In the end, each & every graduate becomes their liaison to the world of future applicants. Most, if not all of us, who seek to become a physician was touched or influenced by one or several physicians. For many of us, that influence affects our choices of program to which we will apply or not apply. Each program is highly vested in the need to accept only the people it feels will serve its needs best.
Sorry for the long & rambling post…these thoughts are rather hard to express, esp in text.
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I also don’t hold it against Johns Hopkins for not wanting to give me a chance.The school simply isn’t the right fit for me, and it was good to know that before I applied rather than after.
This reminds me of something my grandmother used to say. When you allow God to make decisions for you, life is realtivly smooth. But when WE make our decisions instead of following God’s guidance in our lives, it ends up being a complete nightmare!
It took MANY years, but I’ve learned to celebrate the “no’s” in my life. Time and time again it’s been shown that not only was that “no” a good thing for me but that what I ended up with was better than I could ever have expected!
Definitely some good food for nontrad thought in this thread!
You guys are both totally right, Dave, and Qof. I didn’t mean to come off too much like “sour grapes” syndrome or anything, but I have started to resent some of what appears to me as a built-in arrogance on the part of certain aspects (people) within the whole med-school application system… and this only applies to small parts… and it’s only my limited perception so far.
It doesn’t matter though, and doesn’t change anything… just gives me another reason to rant a little.
Sam
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You guys are both totally right, Dave, and Qof. I didn’t mean to come off too much like “sour grapes” syndrome or anything, but I have started to resent some of what appears to me as a built-in arrogance on the part of certain aspects (people) within the whole med-school application system… and this only applies to small parts… and it’s only my limited perception so far.
It doesn’t matter though, and doesn’t change anything… just gives me another reason to rant a little.
Sam
Sam;
Please do not feel as though our comments were directed specifically at you or some perceived ‘short comings’ you may/may not have. My comments were meant for the population of non-trads at large…lessons I have learned through the Univ of Hard Knocks that I hope others will take the time to learn from in lieu of having to learn it the hard way as I did.
I honestly do not detect a “sour grapes” attitude & sometimes this system seems very biased against us &/or random, but I assure you and everyone else, that is not the case. However, we non-trads simply are different than the norm - the norm is & most likely always will be traditionally aged candidates - and the system is set up to accomodate the overwhelming majority of the applicants. The volume of applications is such that the programs have no choice but to be efficient or they would never get through the app pile!
Our job, as non-trads, is not to lament the situation, but to identify what & how it works. Then, to derive strategies that maximize our prospects. For each of us, that plan will be subtly or not so subtly different, but different none the less. We cannot allow ourselves to feel defeated because we are different. We must identify these differences as strengths & then sell ourselves based upon this premise.
I think that this is a superb thread of thought that I hope all OPMers will take the time to read & comment. I only wish, but long ago gave up hope, for such a mature exchange to occur in other venues…generally by now, it would have descended into a mud slinging trad vs non-trad or MD vs DO playground war.
My kudos to all who are involved in this educational exchange!
I didn’t think you had sour grapes either, Sam. You certainly don’t have to tell any of us how frustrating this process can be sometimes. But I do agree with path that things tend to work out for the best in the end. It’s just not always easy to see how that is going to happen at the time when you are neck-deep in something.
I’ve told you all about the bad (Johns Hopkins), but to be fair, that is not the whole story, and it grossly misrepresents my experience. To put things into perspective, you have to understand that I applied to 22 schools. 19 invited me for interviews, and I have attended 16 interviews with one left to go and two that I declined. Of those 16 completed interviews, 11 schools accepted me, one waitlisted me, and four are non-rolling, so I will hear from them next month. I have been offered full tuition scholarships at three schools.
Was I disappointed about the schools that rejected and waitlisted me? Sure. In fact, my top choice school when I started this whole process rejected me pre-secondary. 
But you know, I have to say that over all I have been very, very fortunate. There are a lot of great schools out there, and several of those schools were willing to give me a chance, and in fact really want me to come. I can tell you that acceptance from another school works wonders as far as easing the pain of rejection is concerned.
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I didn’t think you had sour grapes either, Sam. You certainly don’t have to tell any of us how frustrating this process can be sometimes. But I do agree with path that things tend to work out for the best in the end. It’s just not always easy to see how that is going to happen at the time when you are neck-deep in something.
I’ve told you all about the bad (Johns Hopkins), but to be fair, that is not the whole story, and it grossly misrepresents my experience. To put things into perspective, you have to understand that I applied to 22 schools. 19 invited me for interviews, and I have attended 16 interviews with one left to go and two that I declined. Of those 16 completed interviews, 11 schools accepted me, one waitlisted me, and four are non-rolling, so I will hear from them next month. I have been offered full tuition scholarships at three schools.
Was I disappointed about the schools that rejected and waitlisted me? Sure. In fact, my top choice school when I started this whole process rejected me pre-secondary.
Talk about a happy ending to the application process for you! That’s awesome, and sounds well-deserved, imo.
Question - How did those scholarship offers come about for you? Did you apply for specific scholarships that were out there (it doesn’t seem like there are that many)? Or did those schools approach you and say, “we like you so much that we’ll pay for your tuition if you attend our school.”?
I’m trying to sort through the availability of scholarship money and what it takes to be able to land one, right now too.
Thanks,
Sam
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Talk about a happy ending to the application process for you! That’s awesome, and sounds well-deserved, imo.
Question - How did those scholarship offers come about for you? Did you apply for specific scholarships that were out there (it doesn’t seem like there are that many)? Or did those schools approach you and say, “we like you so much that we’ll pay for your tuition if you attend our school.”?
I’m trying to sort through the availability of scholarship money and what it takes to be able to land one, right now too.
Thanks,
Sam
Every school has its own procedure, unfortunately. Some have a separate scholarship application process, and some just award them; one scholarship came with the acceptance call, and two were awarded later.
One thing I will tell you is this: if you get the opportunity to apply for a scholarship at any school, do it, even if that isn’t your top choice school. You can try to bargain with the other schools after the first one gives you money. If they want you badly enough, some schools will improve your financial aid package if they think they’ll lose you to one of their rivals otherwise.
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Question - How did those scholarship offers come about for you? Did you apply for specific scholarships that were out there (it doesn’t seem like there are that many)?
Sam, there absolutely ARE lots of scholarships out there. Each school will have a lengthy list of things to apply for. Until you are accepted, you’re not on the “grapevine” to hear about a lot of them. The Upper Podunk Alumni Association of the Hollywood Upstairs Medical School will have the “Dr. Nick Honorarium” which is only offered to current students of HUMS who are originally from Upper Podunk. You think I am kidding but I am not. At my medical school we got notices many, many times a semester from the financial aid director about such scholarships.
It is a hard nut to crack before you’re on the “inside.” But with an acceptance, you’ll be able to start nibbling away at scholarship applications with guidance from your financial aid office. From my own observations at one school, and from hearing people talk about other schools, I absolutely 100% guarantee you that you will have to provide your parents’ financial information, so get used to that idea because that is NOT going to change regardless of your age.
uhhhmmmmm we’re kinda hijacking the thread; may I suggest that further discussion about scholarships move to another thread?
Mary R.
That actually depends on the school too. Some will consider non-trads over age 30 to be independent for institutional aid. Again, you have to ask the individual schools. But I did not have to provide any parental info on my FAFSA for this reason. Of course, for those of you who are still in your 20s, you will still have to provide parental info, even if you are independent in actuality.
And I also apologize for my part in hijacking the thread. 
I think the cutting corners/hurry up phenomenon is a manifestation of the exceptional confidence that many premeds have.
I find it fascinating that many premeds are not open to suggestions or advice. They ask questions, but they already have the answers, and they reject anything that doesn’t fit the answer. They’re used to always being right. They are convinced that whatever they’re doing is fine, and that their excellent personality will make up for any shortcomings in MCAT score, GPA, etc… Non-trads in particular seem to have the notion that our exceptional life experiences will outshine our mediocre academic records.
As a med student and former MCAT instructor, I’ve worked and talked with many premeds/applicants who had completely unrealistic expectations about their MCAT scores and their competitiveness as applicants, and generally they were pretty closed to any conflicting information. I don’t enjoy this kind of interaction; I’d rather spend my time with someone who is listening and open to new ideas.
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Non-trads in particular seem to have the notion that our exceptional life experiences will outshine our mediocre academic records.
I could be wrong here, but I THINK you have the members here mixed up with that OTHER premed website. You appear to be equating nontrad with mediocre/poor undergrad performance and while I fit that bill perfectly (overall GPA of 2.1), I doubt most nontrads do.
I’m a frequent poster on MRM and Mommd, and with very few exceptions, do I see the “I was president of the bank so with a 20 MCAT I SHOULD be admitted to med school” attitude you’re seem to be referring to. My opinion of what quite a few nontrads do is assume that their past academic achievements from long ago will translate to the MCAT success when they haven’t had a course in over 6 years. That speaks more to ignorance of what is needed to do well on the MCAT, much more so than arrogance about ones abilities to ace it.
I guess as a person who’s said “yipee, I got accepted” as well as the “dam, I didn’t get in”, perhaps I see this issue a LOT differently than most.
Finally, my gradmother used to say that “when you know better you do better”, and with my “half-full” approach to life, I’d like to think that most of us with real life experiences outside of academics, truly try to do the best we can with what we have.
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I think the cutting corners/hurry up phenomenon is a manifestation of the exceptional confidence that many premeds have.
I find it fascinating that many premeds are not open to suggestions or advice. They ask questions, but they already have the answers, and they reject anything that doesn’t fit the answer. They’re used to always being right. They are convinced that whatever they’re doing is fine, and that their excellent personality will make up for any shortcomings in MCAT score, GPA, etc… Non-trads in particular seem to have the notion that our exceptional life experiences will outshine our mediocre academic records.
As a med student and former MCAT instructor, I’ve worked and talked with many premeds/applicants who had completely unrealistic expectations about their MCAT scores and their competitiveness as applicants, and generally they were pretty closed to any conflicting information. I don’t enjoy this kind of interaction; I’d rather spend my time with someone who is listening and open to new ideas.
I don’t really see what kind of “new ideas” you might be talking about here. Anyone can take a look at the average MCAT and GPA scores of any school they are applying to. That’s pretty much an “old idea” that will not change. If pre-meds aren’t able to come close to aligning themselves to that data, then probably they are leaving the application open to hope itself, and figuring they will at least give it a shot. Otherwise, the formula is pretty much the same grind in regards to MCAT and GPA. There are only a certain number of options, esp. for a post bacc. non-trad premed. You can do graduate work, or post-bacc your pre-reqs, etc., but I haven’t seen a single poster yet since I started checking in at this site, who has implied that they were planning on skipping MCAT scores and pre-reqs (and GPA-building classes) because they had life experiences.
Bear in mind also, that often there are almost as many different answers for the same pre-med question as there are times it is asked. The application committee chairperson here told me, when I first met with him, “Make sure and come back if you have any questions to ask me personally. There are a lot of urban legends out there about med school.” Even with that advice and his experience, he has given me info that most absolutely conflicts with info I obtained directly from certain schools. That’s a very small example. The differences between what someone who is a fellow pre-med says, and what the reality may be, is HUGE. I have to laugh when I remember back when I first started into my pre-med classes. I had no idea what was involved with the actual application to med school, other than the pre-med courses I needed (I didn’t even talk to any advisors or anything until about my 2nd year of pre-reqs), and a nebulus idea of the “MCAT” holy grail in the distant future. I remember a fellow biology student telling me that she had a friend who just had taken the MCAT and informed her it was “all chemistry.” lol. That’s the kind of misinformation that saturates the pre-med environment.
Is there some specific credential you have that would interest a pre-med in really listening closely to what you are saying in the first place, that you didn’t mention in your post? Being an MCAT instructor and a med student would be a little better then asking someone on the street… but not a whole heck of a lot better, imo.
While I don’t believe in cutting corners, I do believe in moving forward at a very expeditious pace, myself. Anything less than that would be denying myself to push myself to the limits that potential demands.
Anyway, I keep coming back to kick this dead horse, even though I shouldn’t.
Sam
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Is there some specific credential you have that would interest a pre-med in really listening closely to what you are saying in the first place, that you didn’t mention in your post? Being an MCAT instructor and a med student would be a little better then asking someone on the street… but not a whole heck of a lot better, imo.
Well I guess we have a little more “flavor” on OPM now! But since you mentioned it, I’d just like to add that the absolute BEST advice I EVER got about becoming an MD was from a man who back in the day, didn’t “cut it” himself. He did work in the minority affairs office of a major med school for about 25 years. So I guess that makes him “qualified” which I measure by the fact that his advice did work for me and many others I knew then.
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So I guess that makes him “qualified” which I measure by the fact that his advice did work for me and many others I knew then.
And that advice is…?
I don’t think that meowmix is suggesting that you just listen to anyone regardless of that person’s background and experience. I think what he’s trying to say is that he has extensive experience as an MCAT instructor and successful medical school applicant, and he is willing to pass that advice to others. But they don’t always want to hear his advice if it conflicts with their pre-conceived notions.
When I got ready to apply, one person that I spoke to a lot was efex. Why efex? Because she was the most successful non-trad applicant that I knew about. Who better for me to ask for advice than someone who had multiple acceptances and scholarships to many of the same schools that I wanted to apply to? Most pre-med advisors have never gone to medical school, have never applied to med school, have never even taken the MCAT, and have no idea what it’s like to go through this whole process. Plus, they often have no experience with counseling non-trads. So why would you think you should listen to THEM?
My feeling is that if you have a goal, and you see someone else who has successfully achieved that goal, it is smart to listen to that person’s advice. If that advice conflicts with your beliefs, it is smart to at least CONSIDER changing your tactics. This is especially true if what you’re currently doing isn’t working!
My application season went well beyond my wildest dreams, but it could have been very, very different had I made some of my original choices. One thing that efex got me to do was to apply to a lot more schools than I had originally intended. I thought maybe eight would be enough, and as it turns out, it probably would have been enough to get me an acceptance. But I have an unusual application, and there were a few schools that rejected me with no interview or waitlisted me post-interview. So my experience could have been very different had I not picked the right set of eight schools. Also, I had told her that I was hoping to earn a scholarship, and she again pointed out that it is necessary to have multiple acceptances, because most of those acceptances will not result in a scholarship. And she was totally right about this.
To me, the fact that meowmix is a medical student suggests that he must know something about completing this process successfully. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be a med student; he’d be a re-applicant. 
I’m not saying you should just take whatever he says to be gospel, but again, I think it is essential to learn as much as you possibly can from successful people so that you can maximize your own chances of being successful.
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When I got ready to apply, one person that I spoke to a lot was efex. Why efex? Because she was the most successful non-trad applicant that I knew about.
Who HASN’T listened to Efex?
I certainly did which is one part of the reason I decided to pull back from the process for a little while.I think part of Meowmix’s point is that he/she deosn’t like to get "tude from premeds. And I think Sam’s point was that he/she doesn’t like to get "tude from those giving out advice. Why can’t the “in’s” and “in’s not” put aside the "tude and just get along?
Gosh…I am honored that you all took my advice to heart. I think that here on OPM if we have ever seen attitudes it might be from those members that post very infrequently…I believe that most of the regulars here are by far some of the most committed folks pursuing this path. I think that what does happen…is that often times (on other sites or just talking to pre-meds at undergrads) we get the sense that “some” non-trads might assume that although they have B’s now…“because” they are working this will make up for the B’s. Although B’s are NOT the kiss of death for those non-trads trying to make up for BAD OLD GPA then yes, the B’s are not the best option. Sometimes older pre-meds try to bite more then they can chew…and with working FT and going to school full time their grades are not the best. By best I mean A’s. This is specially important for those making up for a bad GPA. Now, this for the most part does not seem to be the trend here on OPM. Also, some non-trads that I have spoken to just assume that even though they took the sciences 10 yrs ago it’s okay to take the MCAT w/o NEW science courses…they rush trying to apply and then realize the MCAT is no joke. Again, this is not the case here just from random conversations with some non-trads. I think the folks here are very perseverant and successful as seen by our recent batch of accepted folks. Also, if we come off as blunt in your face telling you like it is…we do it with the best intentions. We are all non-trads and always want to see more of our kind getting in