Post deleted by claudette737
I have a neighbor who St. George in the carribean. I think it’s a lot of harder. I think you really lose a lot of choices in terms of location and practice area. I recall my neighbor having a difficult time (doing it outside of the Match) and calling any M.D./D.O. he knew to see if they could get them into a residency program. Ultimately, he found one but not in the state he wanted.
Well, first off, it depends on where in the Caribbean. There are many, many schools down there. I’m headed to SGU in August so I can tell you what I know from the SGU perspective. My understanding is that 99% of SGU grads who are American citizens match. The majority are in primary care spots, but students have been successful in other areas as well. Currently, IMGs have the choice to sign a contract outside the match and many do, assuring that they will not have to scrammble. Your match potential will depend greatly on your USMLE I scores and recs. Some programs won’t look at your app because your and IMG, but some PDs familiar with the school and its graduates are happy to take you. Here’s a link to the most recent match list.
SGU Match List 2004
I’m am not an expert, nor have I completed the process, but I’m happy to try and answer any other questions you might have.
Dr. Button,
I’m curious, what made you decide to choose SGU?
I’ve been intrigued by the foreign schools for quite some time and haven’t ruled them out as of yet…
Interested in more information.
Andrea
I think in choosing a foreign medical school you have to check carefully. Check whether the school is listed with WHO and in IMED so that you will be eligible for ECFMG certification (neccessary for US licensure). Some states possibly won’t accept you for licensure no matter what, so the thing is to check your intended state to work and ascertain that they do. Any reputable school will also list their post-graduate appointments to give an idea of how their students are doing. I did all of this for St. Christopher’s College of Medicine in the UK and it met all of the above requirements. The basic fact is: you need to know your stuff well, and prove it on the USMLE, just like US medical students. That, along with researching the credibility of the school makes you no less of a physician. If I had doubts, I would not have chosen this route. I’ll be starting in the Januaryn 2005 class.
Kathy
I’ll try and summarize the thought pattern for you:
After a couple of tries at US allo, I only received rejections. I called the dean of admissions at my state school and he didn’t have any real advice for me: telling me that I was a borderline candidate and that I should just reapply until it happens, or go to D.O. school and try and transfer (depending on space available).
My life has been in a period of transition. I had been living away from home just long enough to lose my ‘residency’ status in my home state, and at the time of my last rejection I was about to get married. In combination these issues added a whole other dimension to the process. My husband works in international development and that means that degree and location are important. If he’d been in any other sort of field I probably would have applied to osteopathic schools, but because D.O.s are approved across the board internationally and we have no way of knowing just where we might be in the future I didn’t want to take that chance.
So as you can see, a lot of my decision was lifestyle oriented. My husband and I discussed our options: Ireland (not good for him career wise for a full five years), Special Masters at Georgetown (expensive program, and still no garuntee I’d be any closer to my goal), and the Caribbean. In the end the Caribbean gave us the most flexibility and was most appropriate for both our career paths.
Now, why SGU? There are a lot of good schools in the Carib. and a lot that are not so good. Generally SGU, Ross, AUC, and SABA are considered the best institutions in that area. Liscensure is a big thing to worry about when going abroad for school and SGU, Ross, and AUC are all approved for California liscensure (a state that has reciprocity with many others). I personally chose SGU because I felt it stats/logistics were a little bit better. This is only my opinion and is certainly open to interpretation, I’m obviously a little bias b/c I’ve all ready chosen SGU. Here are some of the details:
-SGU has a five year USMLE I pass rate of over 90%, some years as high as 94%.
-Their residency list looks pretty good. As you would expect, it’s heavy on IM, FP, and Peds, but there are plenty of people specializing as well.
-99% of US citizens graduating from SGU get residencies.
-I’ve spoken with many alums that are very happy with their choice and have gone quite far in their field of choice.
-The facilities are top notch- better than many of the med schools I’ve visited in the states. I went for a visit and was blown away.
-They have a small but active research program in which students can get involved.
-You’re only in Grenada two years and then all your clinical work can be done at Green Book hospitals. Most clinicals are organized around a clinical center so you won’t have to move around a dozen times during third and forth year. The school take care of all the details (unless you go outside of their system), which is a big plus.
-Best of all, SGU Grads can be liscensed to practice in all 50 states.
There are certainly some drawbacks:
-It is the developing world. Technically, a second world country. (This was actually a pro for my husband.) There are complications surrounding this and a much slower pace of life. Food wise you can get most everything there than you will find in the US, but it’s a little pricey.
-It’s expensive and Stafford doesn’t give you as much to go abroad as they do to stay in the US. I’ll have a lot of debt hanging over my head.
-There will always be a stigma assocaited with being an IMG. You have to decide whether it’s worth it to be a stigmaitized doc, or to not be a doc at all.
So I think that pretty much sums it up. I’m sure there are plenty more advantages and disadvantages that could be listed, I’ll add more if and when I think of them. Did this help? If you’re thinking in this direction just remember to check on USMLE pass rates, residencies, and liscensure.
Happy to help if you have a more specific question.
Thanks for posting this very thorough information.
I am applying this year, but not liking my chances so far, and I am considering applying outside of the country… It helps to speak to someone that’s made this decision.
Thanks!
Andrea
Dr. Button,
Thanks for your honest perspective & insight into the FMG option. Many of our members will be considering off-shore programs as an option…as you pointed out, for some, that may be their only option. As such, in our recent Denver conference, we included a representative from a European med school…something I think will be continued.
Please feel free to post additional FMG info & we’d love to have you chronicle you FMG experience in these forums. Nothing like first-hand/second-hand info to learn from!
just talking to one of my ER attending collegues yesterday and found out he is a St Geo’s grad…he told me that if you want a specialty residency from there you have to “ace” the Usmle’s …he scored in the top 1% and got a US ER residency, but he thinks without the good board scores, that may not have been possible…
Good USMLE I scores are particularly important for IMGs. You have to score well on the boards if you want to specialize. Given that the MCAT was a bit of a weak spot for me I looked into this before I chose SGU. SGU knows that some of its students have weaker test scores and they have programs to help these students. If you want to be in a field other than IM or FP you’ll need to rock your boards- a little research on your CV doesn’t hurt either. Although there are plenty of FP and IM on SGUs five year match list, there are also plenty of people in other specialties. This gives me hope, b/c I doubt they all entered the school as top 5% testers. I encourage anyone interested in off-shore schools to visit www.valuemd.com. The site is full of information. Becoming an FMG does limit your options, but doesn’t keep you out of the game completely. SGU and the like aren’t for everybody, but they do provide a solid alternative.
Take a peek at the list below- SGU’s 2004 match list- and keep in mind the fact that SGU only reports where their grads are going for PGY-1 so any program that requires a preliminary year- rad-onc, some EM pgms, etc. are reported only as IM (in most cases).
2004 Residency Appointment List
PGY 1
Anesthesiology
Milton S Hershey Medical Center
Shands Hospital at the University of Florida
St Joseph’s Hospital and Medical Center
St. Barnabas Medical Center
University of Miami-Jackson Memorial Medical Center
University of Tennessee Medical Center
Emergency Medicine
Brooklyn Hospital Center
Durham Regional Hospital
Henry Ford Hospital
LAC-King/Drew Medical Center
Metropolitan Hospital Center
Milton S Hershey Medical Center
New York Hospital Medical Center of Queens
Newark Beth Israel Medical Center
Saginaw Cooperative Hospitals Inc.
Sparrow Hospital
St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital Center
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
University of Florida College of Medicine at Jacksonville
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center
West Virginia University Hospitals
Family Practice
Albany Medical Center
Anderson Area Medical Center
Arrowhead Regional Medical Center
Bronx-Lebanon Hospital Center
Centra Health Inc.
Christ Hospital and Medical Center
Covenant Medical Center
Eastern New Mexico Medical Center
Fort Wayne Medical Education Program
Halifax Medical Center
John Peter Smith Hospital (Tarrant County Hospital District)
Kaiser Foundation Hospital (Fontana)
Kaleida Health System (Buffalo General Hospital)
Memorial Health-University Medical Center
Mercy Hospital of Pittsburgh
Montana Family Practice Residency
Natividad Medical Center
Niagara Falls Memorial Medical Center
North Shore University Hospital at Glen Cove
Rapid City Regional Hospital
Riverside County Regional Medical Center
Riverside Regional Medical Center
San Jacinto Methodist Hospital
Shands Hospital at the University of Florida
South Nassau Communities Hospital
St. Joseph’s Hospital and Health Center
St. Vincent’s Medical Center
Stamford Hospital
Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester
Tallahassee Memorial Healthcare Inc.
UCSF-Fresno Medical Education Program
University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago
University of Nevada School of Medicine
University of Pennsylvania Health System
University of Tennessee College of Medicine
University of Washington School of Medicine
General Practice
King’s College Hospital
Internal Medicine
Alameda County Medical Center
Allegheny General Hospital
Brooklyn Hospital Center
Cleveland Clinic Foundation
Georgetown University Medical Center
Jersey City Medical Center
Jewish Hospital of Cincinnati
Kaiser Foundation Hospital (Los Angeles)
Kern Medical Center
Lehigh Valley Hospital
Lenox Hill Hospital
Long Island College Hospital
Long Island Jewish Medical Center
Los Angeles County-USC Medical Center
Maimonides Medical Center
MCP Hahnemann University
Medical College of Georgia Hospital and Clinics
Memorial Health-University Medical Center
Morehouse School of Medicine
New York Hospital Medical Center of Queens
Norwalk Hospital
OSF St. Francis Medical Center
Pennsylvania Hospital (UPHS)
San Joaquin General Hospital
Santa Barbara Cottage Hospital
Scott and White Memorial Hospital
Shands Hospital at the University of Florida
St. Barnabas Hospital
St. Elizabeth Health Center
St. John Medical Center
St. Joseph Health Centers and Hospital
St. Joseph Mercy-Oakland
St. Louis University School of Medicine
St. Luke’s-Roosevelt Hospital Center
St. Michael’s Medical Center (Cathedral Health Svcs, Inc)
St. Vincent’s Hospital and Medical Center of New York
Stamford Hospital
Staten Island University Hospital
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn
Thomas Jefferson University Hospital
Tulane University School of Medicine
UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School
University Hospitals and Clinics
University Hospital-SUNY at Stony Brook
University Hospital-SUNY Health Science Center at Syracuse
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
University of Florida College of Medicine at Jacksonville
University of Hawaii John A Burns School of Medicine
University of Kentucky A B Chandler Medical Center
University of Louisville School of Medicine
University of Massachusetts Medical School
University of Nevada School of Medicine
VA Greater Los Angeles Healthcare System, Sylmar, CA
Washington Hospital Center
Wayne State University/Detroit Medical Center
West Suburban Hospital Medical Center
West Virginia University Hospitals
Winthrop-University Hospital
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Albany Medical Center
Geisinger Medical Center
Spectrum Health-Downtown Campus
Staten Island University Hospital
Neurology
UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Jersey City Medical Center
Kern Medical Center
Lenox Hill Hospital
Louisiana State University School of Medicine
Medical College of Georgia Hospital and Clinics
Monmouth Medical Center
Newark Beth Israel Medical Center
St. Barnabas Medical Center
SUNY at Buffalo Grad Medical-Dental Education Consortium
University Hospital-SUNY Health Science Center at Syracuse
Western Pennsylvania Hospital
Orthopaedic Surgery
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn
University of Texas Southwestern Medical School
Pathology
Danbury Hospital
Henry Ford Hospital
Mary Hitchcock Memorial Hospital
Strong Memorial Hospital of the University of Rochester
Pediatrics
Albany Medical Center
Crozer-Chester Medical Center
Grand Rapids Medical Education and Research Center
Harlem Hospital Center
Inova Fairfax Hospital
Jersey Shore Medical Center
Long Island College Hospital
Loyola University Medical Center
Maimonides Medical Center
Nassau County Medical Center
Nebraska Health System
North Shore University Hospital
Orlando Regional Medical Center
Shands Hospital at the University of Florida
Sinai Hospital of Baltimore
St. Vincent Mercy Medical Center
St. Vincent’s Hospital and Medical Center of New York
SUNY at Buffalo Grad Medical-Dental Education Consortium
SUNY Health Science Center at Brooklyn
<br
/>Tulane University School of Medicine
University of Arkansas College of Medicine
University of Florida College of Medicine at Jacksonville
University of Illinois College of Medicine at Chicago
University of Maryland Medical System
University of Miami-Jackson Memorial Medical Center
University of Nevada School of Medicine
University of New Mexico School of Medicine
University of Oklahoma College of Medicine-Tulsa
University of South Florida College of Medicine
University of Tennessee College of Medicine-Chattanooga
University of Texas Medical School at Houston
Westchester Medical Center
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation
MetroHealth Medical Center
University of Kentucky A B Chandler Medical Center
Plastic Surgery
University of Oklahoma College of Medicine
Pre-Registration House Officer
Royal Hampshire County Hospital
Psychiatry
North Shore University Hospital
St Vincent’s Medical Center of Richmond
UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School
University Hospital-SUNY at Stony Brook
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
Surgery
Albany Medical Center
Beth Israel Medical Center
Creighton University School of Medicine
Harlem Hospital Center
Maimonides Medical Center
Seton Hall University School of Graduate Medical Education
St. Barnabas Medical Center
St. John Hospital and Medical Center
St. Vincent’s Hospital and Medical Center of New York
SUNY at Buffalo Grad Medical-Dental Education Consortium
University Hospital-SUNY Health Science Center at Syracuse
York Hospital
Transitional Year
Aultman Hospital
Baylor College of Medicine
San Joaquin General Hospital
St. Barnabas Medical Center
St. Joseph Mercy-Oakland
Hi…
Don’t know where they fit in the mix, but as someone who was born in Jamaica, I am qualified to go to the University of the West Indies, which has a great medical school, but the university system is (or used to be) modelled on the British system. What are my chances of matching after going to a real Caribbean school (not a school in the Caribbean that is aimed at US students, such as most of the ones mentioned above) I’m a US resident, soon to be a citizen, so I don’t have any of those issues if I trained abroad. Any one know about UWI or other truly foreign programs? I would be able to live in Jamaica, and probably at home with my family, so it would be a lot less expensive, and I would get a really rigorous medical education, but I want to practice here, so I don’t want to have to start over at the end of the process…
Thanks
Leah
Leah,
If I am not mistaken, whether you are truly going to a “foreign” school or one aimed at US students, you must still go through the ECFMG for certification and licensure. That means making sure the school is listed by WHO and on the IMED list. It also means checking with the state you want to practice in to find out their policy for IMGs. You would still need to take the USMLE and the Clinical Skills Assessment (CSA) I have heard recently, that US med students may have to start doing the CSA and, of course, the AMA is in a snit about that. “Doesn’t think its necessary, etc etc…” As a nurse, I think anyone who treats patients should have their clinical skills assessed. Anyway, good luck in whatever you decide. Weren’t you at the DC conference in 2003?
Kathy
Thanks Kathy for responding so fast!!! Lots of good info to check on… The WHO was an organization I heard about a lot in the Caribbean growing up, and even thought I’d like to work for. UWI is on the IMED list – I just checked – funny how quick it is to find stuff out when you know where to look. (thanks again!)
Now all I have to do is find out how much school costs these days… It used to be free for Jamaican nationals, but they have odd rules for people who live abroad. One down side is that the program is FIVE years… It’s basically 2 degrees MB, and BS (a medical degree and a surgery degree) But the training is first class. There are a number of UWI trained folk who practice here in DC prominently… I just didn’t know what they had to go through to qualify, and didn’t know how to find out, since I don’t know them personally.
I agree that ALL docs should have to suffer a bit – CSA etc… After all we’re studying for the right to have life and death in our hands… It’s a sacred trust.
And yes, I was at the DC (VA) conference – I so wish I could have been at this years!
Take care and thanks for pointing me in the right direction. I love this group!
Leah
Leah Gold
42 y.o. pre-med-crazy-person and happy!
Quote:
I have heard recently, that US med students may have to start doing the CSA
Beginning with the class of 2005, the USMLE includes the CSA. The objections to it are the expense (it’s given in just a few locales in the US, so involves travel and lodging in addition to exam fee) and ‘yield’ - the folks administering the exam admit that virtually everyone is likely to pass it (>98%). Furthermore, medical students in US schools are having their clinical skills assessed in more and more ways each year with things like standardized patient exams. So yes, a variety of organizations opposed the CSA, in my opinion with good reason, but it has been adopted nonetheless.
Sorry for the highjack, back to the original question about “truly” foreign medical education…
Mary
Quote:
Hi…
Don’t know where they fit in the mix, but as someone who was born in Jamaica, I am qualified to go to the University of the West Indies, which has a great medical school, but the university system is (or used to be) modelled on the British system. What are my chances of matching after going to a real Caribbean school (not a school in the Caribbean that is aimed at US students, such as most of the ones mentioned above) I’m a US resident, soon to be a citizen, so I don’t have any of those issues if I trained abroad. Any one know about UWI or other truly foreign programs? I would be able to live in Jamaica, and probably at home with my family, so it would be a lot less expensive, and I would get a really rigorous medical education, but I want to practice here, so I don’t want to have to start over at the end of the process…
Thanks
Leah
Hi Leah,
My father was Jamaican so that makes me 1/2 Jamaican but I was born in this country so I am 100% American.
The University of the West Indies is a foreign school and graduates of this school will be treated the same as any other FMG/IMG in terms of practice in the United States. Unfortunately, the rules for FMG/IMG keep changing so check in with NBME to make sure that you are on track for being eligible for USMLE Steps I, II A-B and III. There are probably other requirements too so just keep an eye out for changes. Every year, there is something different.Natalie
I think that at least some of your fellow Jamaicans in the US should be willing to talk to you–so I’d recommend getting in touch with some of those UWI graduates until you can find one who would talk to you for at least a few minutes about what they had to do to come back here.
There is also, of course, the ethical/political question: as this school is primarily designed to train doctors for the West Indies, how will you feel about using it as a way to jump back to the US (if that’s your intent)? And practically and in career terms, what will it mean to your faculty relationships if folks know you are planning to go back to the US? Schools outside the US all differ in this respect; for instance, one South African med school has more than half of its class leaving the country at some point after graduation while others retain their graduates… So, some close investigation of your plans would be a good idea–i.e., really talking to people who’ve been there, who are there now, and gingerly getting a sense of what the politics of your situation there would be.
Good luck.
cheers
Joe