Hi, I am 29 years old, I have a BA in Political Science with a 2.8gpa that I finished in 2000. I just obtained an EMT-B certification with which I will volunteer for the Red Cross while I finish my science pre-reqs. The only real option I have available to me for the pre-reqs is community college. Is this going to take away from the quality of grades I am planning on earning. When the time comes, after I take the MCAT, and right after I send out applications, I plan to take Bio-Chem and calc at the local 4-year, however that will only account for 5 or 10 semester credits at a 4 year school. This is the path that I plan on taking (the CC) I just want to know how much of a disadvantage I will be at taking all the major science pre-reqs at a CC.
Thanks for any imput.
I’m afraid to say that I think you are probably at a fairly significant disadvantage, and here’s why: your grades at the CC are going to be considered in the context of your earlier undergrad GPA which is not good. You need to show that you can do very well in a rigorous academic environment - it’s one of the main questions that AdComs have about all candidates. If you are planning to take courses part-time while working, it’s even more of a red flag… giving your all to do really well on one course, even if it IS while holding down a job, is not the same as being immersed in coursework.
Taking classes at a 4-yr college after you’ve applied does not help you at all. Medical schools make their initial decisions about candidates (e.g. send a secondary app, invite for interview) based on the data in the file, NOT on the references to future plans. If the 4-yr college is available to you now, I strongly urge you to take your prerequisites there.
I’d actually also recommend that you consider taking not only the prereqs, but additional science coursework. Your undergrad GPA is going to be a bigger impediment than I think you realize at this time.
You can definitely do this, but it will not be easy. Good luck to you!
Mary
I think that Mary’s advice is right on the money. While there are definitely folks who succeed in applying to medical school from CCs, they are typically not fighting the spectre of academic underperformance in their past.
All of the things Mary mentions triggers additional scrutiny. If you plan to succeed as an applicant, do not provide the AdCom additional knives with which to dissect your application. As a nontrad, you are not given any “brownie points”, even if you have had a long & illustrous career in allied health.
In fact, being a nontrad is most likely a trigger in & of itself for additional scrutiny. Why are changing careers later on? Are you going to be a career hopper? Do you really now what you are getting into? Even though it is illegal to consider, how you will deal with family, financial & other obligations that we aquire as we progress through life.
In short, esp since you muct compensate for a weaker academic past, if there is any possible, do your pre-reqs & additional, higher-level science courses at a 4-year institution.
Furthermore, the ideal way to do this would be to do your pre-reqs & additional science coursework as a FT, or nearly FT, student. No, the AdComs will not & cannot be expected to cut you slack because you have bills you have to pay & thereofre must work FT. Sorry, it just does not work that way. It is fully unintentional, but the entire process is structured in the context of traditional applicants who do not have the additional burdens of “life”…it would not be reasonable to expect otherwise as traditional applicants are overwhelmingly the preponderance of the applicant pool. Therefore, on some levels, you are forced to compete by their standards.
OTOH, being an older/non-trad applicant who has, presumably, experienced much more “life” & therefore more adept at managing multiple & frequently confilicting obiligations - you should have the ability to clearly demonstrate this talen by juggling the ‘stuff’ you have to do to be a competitive applicant while SIMULTANEOUSLY coping with life’s other obligations.
I think the concept I conveyed in the last paragraphy is sufficiently fundamental that it bears repeating - as a non-trad, you do not & will not receive any discounts, special considerations or slack in by AdComs in the context of what they seek within a medical school application. HOWEVER, if you are able to provide those mandated elements to be competitive, then they are most impressed by your capacity to provide same while simultaneously honoring your life’s other commitments & obligations.
Does this make sense to you? It is a concept that many non-trads really struggle with.
I’m going to respectfully somewhat disagree.
Yes, one can generally say that community colleges are less rigorous than 4-year institutions. Still, there are definitely exceptions to the rule in both directions.
The SUNY community college I am taking gen chem and physics at has a fantastic reputation. It regularly places a small number of its top students each year in top four-year institutions including Columbia, Cornell, UVA, UNC Chapel Hill, Yale and even the “College on the Hill†adjoining Old Man Dave (that’s where it placed me a few years back). These students transfer with full junior status generally without exception.
Conversely, there are plenty of four-year institutions (some even call themselves universities) with less than stellar academic reputations. Most of these are lower-tier private schools that need to keep the cash flowing. This means that students not passing general chem=nobody making it to quote-unquote “upper division†courses=less than full employment for the faculty.
Are you better off taking your pre-med classes at a 1st quartile nationally visible university than any community college? Absolutely.
Still, I think that it is a mistake to give out blanket advice that a four-year school is always better than a two-year institution. I am willing to bet that the adcoms are well aware that grades from selected two-year institutions are respectable (mostly feeder schools in major state university systems) and that that there are plenty of third and fourth quartile universities with some pretty questionable academic standards.
That being said, I’m probably going to take organic chemistry at a local 4-year school. First, because I want to have some of my pre-req work at a 4-year university to put forth to those adcoms who are biased. Second, it doesn’t hurt that the orgo course at the 4-year school is known to be a much easier ride than at the CC.
Call me a test case (granted, I don’t have to compensate for a bad undergrad transcript, as I finished in the top 35% when I was in Hanover). I’m just betting on one piece of anecdotal advice that I keep seeing—that if I really tattoo the MCAT (i.e. 35 and up), the adcoms will not be all that concerned about where the 4.0 transcript with the prereqs came from
We shall see….
- Destro Said:
See - I don't consider "feeder" schools into major state university systems to be the same as what people generally consider to be a "community college". In some places (California comes to mind) it is very difficult to start out at one of the four year institutions and most students end up starting out at "feeder" schools that are part of the Cal State or UC system. For some reason, though, they call them community colleges.
I agree that you are correct - it is tough to make generalizations about the quality of community colleges. A lot of the community colleges in Ohio are little more than glorified high schools/technical schools. At many of them, none of the science classes you took there would transfer as the pre-med equivalent at most state schools. Given that, if I were on an adcom, I would have a pretty strong bias against an applicant with CC pre-reqs. But, if I were at a med school in an area where a lot of students start at CCs/feeders and then transfer to the four year state school, I would probably feel differently.
Adcoms aren’t going to know the equivalency of every CC in the US. Just ain’t going to happen. By and large a 4 year university is the path to go. If you can’t then such is life and you’ll have to make do. However that may mean taking more time to take upper division science classes. This is what has happened to friends of mine. They’re in med school now but only after taking more classes past the minimum prereqs. My 2 bio and 1 chem are from a CC. However the rest will be at a university. It’s been recommended by adcoms I contacted.
It’s all a game of hoops and we either play by their rules or decide not to become physicians.
- Emergency! Said:
Upon re-reading this again, I meant to say that many of the science classes wouldn't transfer as pre-med equivalents. My bad.
Agreed that a lot depends on the area. I do hear some horror stories about community colleges in a lot of areas of the country. Still, I know that in California and New York, there are a number of very well respected two-year institutions.
- Quote:
Any school that does not award the baccalaureate degree or higher is technically a community college. A lot of them around here have started using SUNY/location like the four-year institutions. Still, it’s all semantics.
Every school in the SUNY system must accept “science courses for science and engineering majors†courses transferred from SUNY two-year schools as their pre-med equivalents. Same goes for the UC system—Berkeley, UCLA and Davis are required to accept courses from CCs in the UC system as part of the UC charter.
The two-year feeder that I am doing most of my stuff at regularly has students transfer to top ten schools and the courses are taken as their pre-med equivalents at top schools around the country. Granted, it’s a very small number (roughly the top 10-15 students enrolled).
Again, I’m not disagreeing with the advice that one should do the pre-reqs at a well-respected four-year institution if possible.
I suppose the point that I am making is to think twice about spending $6-800 per credit at a 3rd or 4th quartile private university if there is a well-respected state feeder two-year institution in your area.
I just don’t think that you are any worse off with credits from a respected state two-year feeder school, if the other choice is a bottom of the barrel four-year institution that the adcoms see pitiful numbers for when they go to look it up.
Remember, the students in hard science courses at a top state-run community college are there for the reasonable prices. The students paying $700/credit in a 4th quartile rated 4-year school are likely there because they couldn’t get in anywhere else.
- Destro Said:
I just don’t think that you are any worse off with credits from a respected state two-year feeder school, if the other choice is a bottom of the barrel four-year institution that the adcoms see pitiful numbers for when they go to look it up.
Remember, the students in hard science courses at a top state-run community college are there for the reasonable prices. The students paying $700/credit in a 4th quartile rated 4-year school are likely there because they couldn’t get in anywhere else.
I think the exchange of views in this thread demonstrates why admissions to medical school is such a personalized process. AdComs actually *do* know about the schools who tend to send applicants their way and will usually know the difference between technical-school quality CCs and CC feeders.
However, Crooz brings up a point that can't be underestimated: when it comes down to it, whatever you decide about your prerequisites is your decision, but YOU are not the one who decides if you took 'em at the right place. The AdComs get to make that call, and while you'd like them to be thoughtful and logical about it, you really can't know for sure. So regardless of how thoughtfully and logically YOU approach the decision, you are still well-advised to talk to AdComs of the schools where you'll be applying.
Mary
- Quote:
Agreed, or if you aren't anchored down, simply apply to schools that you know are open to pre-reqs from two year schools. There are a number of decent med schools on the record as saying that pre-reqs taken at 2-year schools are acceptable.
For me, it was a no brainer, as my current employer pays every dime at the SUNY two-year(read: not just cheap but free) and more importantly, the nearest four-year school with a decent academic rep is over an hour away.
Perhaps I’m just optimistic because I was an academic odyssey. I barely graduated from high school and ended up in a SUNY two-year because no one else would take me.
Although I heard a lot of “you can’t get there from here†(even from faculty) I applied to Dartmouth, Yale, UVA, UNC Chapel Hill and BC. I was accepted to all of them with junior standing (Yale even offered nearly 1/3 academic scholarship). Moreover, all of my classes transferred, even to the two Ivies, as equivalent course counterparts.
Again, if there was a 1st or 2nd quartile four-year school within an hour of me, I would definitely be going pre-reqs there. Still, I just can’t justify going 22 grand in the hole to do pre-reqs at a 4th quartile 4-year school.
Really, really sounds like you have a pedigree issue mixed in with a bit of a perfectionist fallacy. Seems it’s either a top tier 4 year school or a CC. While your 2 year feeder might be well known in New York what about an adcom in Florida knowing how good the feeder school is? Texas? West Virginia? Virginia? Maryland?
I guess I’m not one of those who expects to have schools oozing all over for me. I know of 4.0/44 (GPA/MCAT) who was accepted but not where they thought nor where they wanted to. They ended up at their state school which was only included because it was their safety school.
While grades and MCAT matter a heap you will have to impress them during the interview. Academic allstars are not guaranteed anything. The only guarantees are having some connection with the school or an adcom member. Alot can be said about the acceptance of those premeds who come from a long line of physicians.
Unfortunately the rest of us are left to jump thru hoops and put on our best monkey suit and entertain the adcoms. It’s all, every aspect of medicine, is about jumping thru the hoops. It begins as a premed and continues your entire career. It’s all one big game.
First, let me say that I am in no way criticizing your decision or even disagreeing with all of what you are saying. But - I feel that you are comparing apples to oranges here. From the way you describe your SUNY “community college” experience, it doesn’t sound much different than taking courses around here at a branch campus of a 4 year institution. In Ohio, most branch campuses don’t offer four year degrees. However, they are not considered community colleges, and the course numbers (and allegedly the courses) are the same as you would take at the main campus. To the best of my knowledge, most of them do not even differentiate on your transcript a course taken at a branch vs. main campus. Community colleges here are typically NOT affiliated with the state university system and there is nothing that says that any state school has to accept your credits. So, it varies widely on what universities will accept what credits from what CCs.
Another key difference in your situation from most non-traditionals - you state that you were accepted at junior status at various institutions and your classes all transferred in as pre-regs. When we talk on here about not taking your pre-reqs at a CC, we are largely talking to non-trads who already have degrees and just need to take the pre-med classes. They have no intentions of transferring these classes to another institution, because they don’t need another degree. My opinion only - but because you are transferring to a 4 year school that has accepted your classes as equivalent to their pre-med classes, you have eliminated the scrutiny of the rigor of your classes that someone who just takes the courses without transferring them might receive.
If I’m on an adcom and I see that X university accepted all of your two-year classes, that tells me that said university considers those classes rigorous enough to be counted as equivalent. But, if I’m on an adcom who knows nothing about your two year school and you DIDN’T transfer those pre-reqs to a 4 year institution, I MIGHT be a little suspicious about the rigor of those courses. Again, this is dependent on a lot of things . . . if you have a 35 MCAT, I’m probably not going to concern myself too much with the rigor of your pre-reqs. But, if you have a poor original undergrad GPA and have an average MCAT, I’m probably going to wonder if your A’s at that two year institution reflect your ability or just are due to the fact that the courses at that school aren’t very rigorous.
It sounds like you are on a decent track and don’t really have anything to worry about. Even if you do apply out of the geographic area where your “CC” is well known, I don’t think you will have any issues with schools accepting those classes because you transferred them to a four year institution.
When it comes to being non-traditional, there isn’t usually any type of “one-size-fits-all” advice for what path to take. So, threads like this are valuable for people to see what kinds of things to take into consideration when making decisions.
Destro & all;
Damned strong work! And, were I to have been in your situation, I would have probably taken the same route. But, there is an important distinction I wish to draw - that your situation is unique to you. You were very fortunate to have a highly-respected CC (which is an exception & not the general rule) in your proximity & the fantastic deal where your employer paid the bill. AWESOME!
Furthermore, you have wisely pointed out a significant danger of painting in broad strokes - of which I am guilty on my post above. Even thought the overwhelming preponderance of 4-yr institutions garner a much more solid academic reputation than do any 2-yr schools (called by whatever moniker), there are exceptions - CCs that excel & 4-yrs that suck. But again, those are the exceptions & not the rule, which is an important distinction that needs to be discovered through research by the individual going through the process as it specifically pertains to their situation.
I am glad that you took the time to point out that there are these exceptions that may pose superb opportunities & that there are hazards in trying to paint too simplistic a scenario. It provides us with an opportunity to elaborate on an alternate pathway and to point out to others considering this journey that it is imperitive that they read, research & explore the multitude of opprtunities that lie before them. There are many many ways to skin this cat that can all land you in a med school seat somewhere. The take-home message is that there is no single magie bullet that guarantees admission & that the best path for you may not be the same path taken by others.
Approach your dream with an open mind, a plan & a pre-conceived point where it is time to cut your losses. An open mind will allow you to pick up on unique or undiscovered opportunities. A plan must keep the final goal always in your sights, but be sufficiently malleable so that it can evolve as the circumstances around you change - they will. And finally, even qualified & capable people can reach a point where the unavoidable work & sacrifice are just no longer worth it. You must have the maturity & foresight to acknowledge this & plan for the potential that some of you will not make it.
Now, I have a question for you Destro - where did you end up for your 4-year program? There were some strong institutions on your list of options.
- Quote:
None other than the "college on the hill" with which I am sure you are intimately familiar.
Do you think that "mud season" in Hanover will be shorter this year because of the mild winter?
Without wading through every posting on this subject, I just want to jump in with a short comment - which I’ve made before.
I advise all my clients when they are doing their pre-reqs to go to the most rigorous four-year institution that time and money will allow. AdComms DO look at the ranking of the schools where the majority of your work is completed (they often use the Barron’s ranking), and they often do NOT accept cc credits or AP credits. If they do, it’s often contingent upon having taken upper division coursework (obviously at a four-year school) and doing well.
Don’t limit your med school choices by taking required work at community colleges.
Cheers,
Judy
to ‘Emergency’
I can’t speak for all Ohio CCs, but I’m doing my prereqs (post bac) at one and here’s what I have found.
For less than $50/credit hour, I am taking classes that transfer one-to-one for the majors science classes at my local state university. They are all listed for specific transfer equivalencies at OSU as well (except my bio which there only gets general credit). The 200 level microbiology class that I am currently taking at CC is listed as a transfer equiv. for Micro 509 at OSU.
I understand that out of state these classes will not necessarily be recognized and that I will have some explaining to do. I may take some upperlevels to ‘cap off’ my transcript if I have the time.
Would I recommend this method? Probably not, but I’m going to try to make it work for me. So far I have a 4.0 after 53 credits here (not all of them are pertinent) and I know that I need to keep that up (and clobber the MCAT). I’ll let you all know how it turns out if you don’t mind waiting.
Best,
‘Age’
Hi Age -
It sounds like you have done what you need to do so far - as we have all said, if you are going to take pre-reqs at a CC, you need to do very well in them. Congrats on your 4.0 so far.
As a former HS teacher, I will admit to some bias against CCs. I saw and heard so many examples of students who were struggling to do well in Math and Science at our HS who then went to the CC and said how “easy” the classes were out there. Now, you could argue that two ways, I realize. You COULD argue that they found the classes at the CC to be easy simply because they were so well prepared from our school. Or, you could argue that they found the classes so easy simply because they were so much less rigorous than their HS classes were.
Ohio’s CCs do seem to be working on improving their quality. I know that part of the reason your classes transfer one-to-one to the local state university is due to pressure by the state in the past few years for the State universities and CCs to work together and create agreements on more classes transferring to the four year institution. In my area of Ohio, the local CC would recruit these kids to come take classes with promises of how much cheaper it was and how all their classes would transfer to the 4 year school. I can’t even remember how many students told me that they basically lost at least a year of college because when they went to transfer, almost none of their courses were accepted at the university. Or, the university would grant them credit hours for the courses, but not count them toward any of the courses required for their degree.
So - when I decided back in 2003 to go back to school and take the pre-reqs, my bias toward CCs wasn’t the whole reason that I chose to not take my pre-reqs there. When I was investigating the whole idea, I talked to med school admissions people at MUO and OSU. Both of them were very clear that they didn’t care what my degree was in as long as I did well in the pre-reqs AND that I needed to take my pre-reqs at a four year institution NOT a CC. Given that I had a poor undergrad GPA to make up for, I simply felt that CCs (even though much cheaper) were not an option for me. I was already taking a huge financial risk by quitting my job to go back to school, I was going to do everything possible to give myself the best shot I had for getting accepted to medical school.
In any case - I don’t know how far along you are in the process. Have you met with Admissions at any of the Ohio med schools? It might be worth it just to gain a feel for what (if any) bias you will come up against in the admissions process. You might also consider, especially if you are going to take some upper levels at a university, investigating the process and cost of transferring your CC credits to that school (even if you aren’t seeking a degree). You still will have to submit your CC transcript when you apply, so med schools will see those grades but then you also have on record them being accepted as the pre-med pre-reqs that adcoms (in Ohio at least) are familiar with. This might help you out come admissions time.
Before I get jumped upon by CC advocates, let me say that I DO realize that not all CCs are created equal, just as not all four year institutions are created equal. Heck, not even all classes at a given institution are equal. We all know that the rigor of a course depends a lot on the professor. At a large university, the “difficulty” of getting a good grade in a class sometimes rests as much on the professor as it does on the ability of the student (especially if you happen to get one of those profs who believes that it is his duty to have a class exam average of 40% and to “weed out” the unfit pre-professionals). And so, that is why the MCAT is out there . . .
I sincerely hope that Ohio continues to improve the quality of their CCs and make them a viable and less expensive option than taking all four years at a university. Unfortunately, it seems that recent machinations by the state are threatening to undo the improvements in CCs by proposing that no remedial courses be offered at 4 year institutions and any student needing to take such “remedial” course work have to take them at a CC. If they follow through on this, I think you are going to see a decline in the number of degree transferable credits offered at Ohio CCs as the CCs have to eliminate those courses in order to provide the lower level “remedial” courses required for students to be accepted into a 4 year institution.
Age - please do continue to keep us posted. If you opt to go talk to some med schools, let us know what they say. I wish you the best of luck in this pathway - it’s not an easy one!
A lot of good information here but it does bring up a lingering question of mine since it seems as if more than a few people make it sound like taking any pre-med classes at a CC instantly restricts them from any of the top tier medical schools. So my question is if someone, coming from the California system where they have no bloody choice, is forced to take almost half of his/her pre-med classes at a CC then will he/she be out of luck as far as applying to Harvard, John Hopkins, Mayo, etc.?
Best advice is to call the school. I called my state school and was shocked to hear how they felt about CC courses. I called Duke and got the same response. I called a bunch more and everyone else was pretty much “ok” with CC courses but did stress that I would need a great MCAT score to “offset things”.
I’m down the street from JHU. Take a trip, if you can, to JHU and see for yourself. Some love it others think it’s gunner-HU.
No, I don’t think taking courses at a CC restricts you from the top schools. As Crooz said though, its always better to call the schools when you get to that point rather than shell out $$$ to apply to a school that isn’t going to give you fair consideration.
Keep in mind that there are a couple of differences in situations. First, adcoms are aware of how the California situation works. Because there are far more pre-meds in California than there are medical school seats, California students apply all over the country. Based on the schools of people who interview here, I would guess that the number of students who interview from California is second only to in-state residents.
Second difference to consider - doing some classes at a CC and transferring them to a 4-year for a degree and/or taking upper levels vs. already having a degree and taking all your pre-reqs at a CC. If you need to do damage control on a GPA from a previous degree (even more so if you took some of the pre-reqs once already) taking pre-reqs at a CC is going to hurt you more than if you are working on your first degree ever and take many of the pre-reqs at a CC prior to transferring to a university to complete your degree.
And, of course, the MCAT is a huge factor. Don’t sweat it too much, guys. My understanding is that there are very few schools that actually state a policy of absolutely not accepting any CC credits. Most of them state the dreaded “prefer” clause, just like they “prefer” that your pre-reqs not by more than X years old. Every individual has to do what is best for themselves considering location, finances, schools they want to attend, what is available, etc, when making choice as to where they take pre-reqs.