For those interested in Caribbean

Nontraditional Premed Discussion
1

For those interested in Caribbean schools and how they work I would be happy to discuss it with you.


There are at least 10 decent Caribbean schools that have “approvals”


Any school with WHO and IMED listing a student can take the USMLE


I think many people get confused easily about Caribbean schools.


Caribbean schools are no different then Foreign Medical schools as far as the Match and all else.


For instance the Government of Aruba (Aruba is a Sovereign country) approves my school and its listed in WHO and IMED.


Ok that said the best Caribbean schools are those with a good track record:


AUC


SGU


Ross


and


SABA


these schools have been around 20+ years with many many practicing Physicians


None of these schools are accredited in the USA (LCME) ( The schools love to confuse people about this and make people think they are “Accredited in the US” no school outside the USA is accredited in the USA.)


California approved the 4 mentioned for Practice there


Federal student loans are available for the first three and private loans for the rest.


I think any of those 4 would be fine.


Another misconception is “Third world country” and “4 years on an island”.


Both are untrue.


I had cable and internet and all the food ( cheaply) I wanted. Fedex, At&t and other wireless 100% available on the islands.


No one spends 4 years on the island unless they are premed there or fail. Medical school is 1.5 to 2 years for basic science then the good ole USA for clinicals. ( Yes along side us students, like I did mine)


BTW do not think about the Caribbean as


Cheaper


Quicker


Easier


Its the opposite of all this


Costs the same (In some cases may be a little more)


Not quicker


Not easier

2
  • DRFP Said:
There are at least 10 decent Caribbean schools that have "approvals"



which approvals are you referring to? the California List or Federal Loans/USDE?

  • DRFP Said:
Any school with WHO and IMED listing a student can take the USMLE



It should also be noted that getting a WHO and IMED listing is shockingly simple. A school needs to be charted by a recognized governmental body; it does not have to be national or even provincial. A local city or town can charter a school and then the school sends a letter to the WHO, by UN charter must accept it. This gets the school listed in IMED and now any student from such a school can sit for USMLE

  • DRFP Said:
Caribbean schools are no different then Foreign Medical schools as far as the Match and all else.



Yes, these schools are in the NRMP (ie US allopathic residency matching system) but overall the match for US citizens who are IMG is 50% compared to US MD which is 94%.

The 50% figure covers all the foreign school graduates who apply and I speculate it varies widely by school. As DRFP pointed out Ross, AUC, SGU, and Saba have the best records. While match rates and USMLE are likely available from NRMP from each school (as opposed to self-reported rates), I wonder what the applicant profile, matriculant profile, drop out rate, and other important stats from these schools.

  • DRFP Said:
For instance the Government of Aruba (Aruba is a Sovereign country) approves my school and its listed in WHO and IMED.



Kinda. Aruba, which has no administrative subdivisions, is one of the four constituent countries that form the Kingdom of the Netherlands, together with the Netherlands, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten which citizens share a single nationality: Dutch citizen. On January 1, 1986, Aruba officially became an autonomous country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Aruba has basic autonomy on most internal affairs except for defense, foreign affairs, final judicial review, and such Kingdom matters as human rights and good governance.


3
  • gonnif Said:


which approvals are you referring to? the California List or Federal Loans/USDE?

It should also be noted that getting a WHO and IMED listing is shockingly simple. A school needs to be charted by a recognized governmental body; it does not have to be national or even provincial. A local city or town can charter a school and then the school sends a letter to the WHO, by UN charter must accept it. This gets the school listed in IMED and now any student from such a school can sit for USMLE

Yes, these schools are in the NRMP (ie US allopathic residency matching system) but overall the match for US citizens who are IMG is 50% compared to US MD which is 94%.

The 50% figure covers all the foreign school graduates who apply and I speculate it varies widely by school. As DRFP pointed out Ross, AUC, SGU, and Saba have the best records. While match rates and USMLE are likely available from NRMP from each school (as opposed to self-reported rates), I wonder what the applicant profile, matriculant profile, drop out rate, and other important stats from these schools.

Kinda. Aruba, which has no administrative subdivisions, is one of the four constituent countries that form the Kingdom of the Netherlands, together with the Netherlands, Curaçao, and Sint Maarten which citizens share a single nationality: Dutch citizen. On January 1, 1986, Aruba officially became an autonomous country within the Kingdom of the Netherlands. Aruba has basic autonomy on most internal affairs except for defense, foreign affairs, final judicial review, and such Kingdom matters as human rights and good governance.



1. http://www.caam-hp.org/

This is a recognized org by the US DOE,WHO and the Netherlands.

A few schools have this and a few more working on it.

2.It is not easy to get IMED and WHO listing anymore, I know of more then a few schools rejected and went out of business because they lost IMED. ( This happened after the St. Christopher's scandal and a couple of other schools who did not have everything properly )

The rules at WHO and IMED changed back in 2006-07

I followed it closely myself since I was at a Caribbean school.

3. prematches and outside the matches is not included in the official match data, I have argued this for years. US students are quick to point out the 50% yet the real number is higher.

Still for some people this is the best option and the match rate of the 4 schools I mentioned is around 70 to 80%.

4.Not Kinda, Aruba is not part of the Netherlands , Curacao, Bonaire and Saba all are different and are attached to the Netherlands still. Some of the information on the internet is wrong. Since I lived on the islands and did read about the details per the local papers, Aruba enjoys autonomy in running the Island government now, that means they can sponsor a medical school if they want to. The other islands with medical schools, like Saba, had to get approval from the Netherlands. Of course I only lived there during this time.

Believe me as quick as you are to put me down, I'm the first to say there are always risks when you do not attend a US school, yet the US physician work force is 40% FMG......... I think that says a lot already. Caribbean schools accept students who did not succeed as high in college as the accepted US students did. Although I like to point out that US medical schools have a minimum application GPA of 3.0 or none at all for application qualifications at most US schools I have looked at. Caribbean medical schools then have a lower success rate then US medical schools because not all who attend a Caribbean medical school are able to pass or pass the USMLE. I would not have it any other way.

I caution everyone looking into a Caribbean school because of poor grades to understand Desire does not equal ability.

There are more then a few FMG's in residency, you will have them where you are.

I feel I need to be on the defense for some reason? I never thought of OPM as a US student only club?


4

I didn’t post on OPM for a long time because I was so busy studying and finishing medical school.


Also I did not have loans for my school.


Not my fault, The schools lost the loans in the financial mess here in the US. It caused many problems the past couple of years.


Sallie Mae did not grandfather us in, they just dropped us, for me right after basic science.


I had to struggle to get through Clinical sciences.


Nothing has been fun.


Now that I graduated I can BREATH!



5

I did not sense Gonnif was putting you down as much as he was clarifying his thoughts and knowledge on a topic that is somewhat controversial.


Controversial ONLY because of the rates of USMLE passage vs US based med school students.


As many older students look to run like lemmings away from the business world (me, I’m 46 almost 47), the Caribbean schools might be a route for us… good to have ALL sides compared and knowledge going in, rather than like you, find out half-truths and harsh realities after getting there.


Thank you for posting the information - I truly appreciate the insight you provide as I consider my options going forward.

6
  • Adoc2be Said:
I did not sense Gonnif was putting you down as much as he was clarifying his thoughts and knowledge on a topic that is somewhat controversial.

Controversial ONLY because of the rates of USMLE passage vs US based med school students.

As many older students look to run like lemmings away from the business world (me, I'm 46 almost 47), the Caribbean schools might be a route for us... good to have ALL sides compared and knowledge going in, rather than like you, find out half-truths and harsh realities after getting there.

Thank you for posting the information - I truly appreciate the insight you provide as I consider my options going forward.



I'm sorry to that I was upset, just many people in the past are quick to post things that are not 100% true.

I end up bringing out the data I have collected through out the years, charts and even names of Doctors who are FMG's

My point is the US is a US medical club, Nurses and Doctors. FMG's are not welcomed in many places not because they are not as competent as US medical professionals but because they did not go to school here in the US.

This is ugly and one day I hope it stops.

In clinicals this was not an issue, I spent a year in Baltimore doing Cores and none of the residents ever treated me or other Caribbean students differently then the US students.

But what I was hoping to do was steer people from the scam schools, the schools without decent faculty and clinicals.

AUC, Ross, SGU and SABA all have good decent campuses and in fact the first three are just as good as many US schools.

Saba is small but all 4 are approved by California.

All four have decent match rates.

But and this is a biggie

all these schools have a large fail rate during Basic science

15 to 30% some classes.

and this is simple, you accept someone with a 2.8 and 20 MCAT and its a gamble. For the school and them.
7
  • DRFP Said:


  • DRFP Said:
prematches and outside the matches is not included in the official match data, I have argued this for years. US students are quick to point out the 50% yet the real number is higher.

Still for some people this is the best option and the match rate of the 4 schools I mentioned is around 70 to 80%.



As I said in my original posting the 50% inlcuded official data for ALL IMG/FMG w while the "big 4" had much higher rates. This points out that other schools have to be examined carefully as their rates must be considerably lower

  • DRFP Said:
.Not Kinda, Aruba is not part of the Netherlands Curacao, Bonaire and Saba all are different and are attached to the Netherlands still. Some of the information on the internet is wrong. Since I lived on the islands and did read about the details per the local papers, Aruba enjoys autonomy in running the Island government now, that means they can sponsor a medical school if they want to. The other islands with medical schools, like Saba, had to get approval from the Netherlands. Of course I only lived there during this time.



I was under the impression that Aruba still didn't issue its own passports

  • DRFP Said:
Believe me as quick as you are to put me down...



I feel I need to be on the defense for some reason? I never thought of OPM as a US student only club?



If I came off curt and cynical I apologize. OPM is open to all students to show them the options and opportunities that they have in pursuing their dreams to become physicians. OldPreMeds has received much support from various foreign medical schools as sponsors and exhibitors at our annual conference, including AUC,AUA, Ross, Sint Eustatius, IUHS, Trnity, Oceania and others. In 2007 we were sponsored by St, Matthews and this year we are sponsored in part by University of Guadalajara. Personally, when I had to undergo surgery to remove a section of colon, I had no trouble to have a surgical resident work on me from SGU and the GI fellow went to Saba

By the same token, OPM's mission is also to provide accurate information to students and many of the off-shore medical schools and their recruiters sell dreams without accurate, verifiable statistics to back up their claims. Students ask me hard questions and I ask the medical schools the same. I have seen too many students get seduced by the lure of a possible MD in the Caribbean only to come out beaten and poor
8
  • gonnif Said:


As I said in my original posting the 50% inlcuded official data for ALL IMG/FMG w while the "big 4" had much higher rates. This points out that other schools have to be examined carefully as their rates must be considerably lower

I was under the impression that Aruba still didn't issue its own passports

If I came off curt and cynical I apologize. OPM is open to all students to show them the options and opportunities that they have in pursuing their dreams to become physicians. OldPreMeds has received much support from various foreign medical schools as sponsors and exhibitors at our annual conference, including AUC,AUA, Ross, Sint Eustatius, IUHS, Trnity, Oceania and others. In 2007 we were sponsored by St, Matthews and this year we are sponsored in part by University of Guadalajara. Personally, when I had to undergo surgery to remove a section of colon, I had no trouble to have a surgical resident work on me from SGU and the GI fellow went to Saba

By the same token, OPM's mission is also to provide accurate information to students and many of the off-shore medical schools and their recruiters sell dreams without accurate, verifiable statistics to back up their claims. Students ask me hard questions and I ask the medical schools the same. I have seen too many students get seduced by the lure of a possible MD in the Caribbean only to come out beaten and poor



I'm sorry as well, Its been a hard 6 years for me and a lot of lessons learned and thought I could start posting again.

I'm well aware of the need for accurate information, I have debated it here and other places for years.

Some of the problems is the information is at times skewed and meant to portray the FMG in a negative light.

IN reality its not as bad as posted on other forums ( Student forms ) and not as easy as believed too.

I have issues with two of the schools you mentioned, one has many many problems and last I checked I wonder if they are still operating?

I also have experience with students from other Caribbean schools who's clinical knowledge was so poor we just about excused them from Patient care during the rotation.

I have a genuine interest to help people make a good decision. I moderate ( as I have for years) on a premed / Medical student site and try to work through the options one has, Options have always been what I believe the strength of these web sites. Helping people see the real options they may have.

Currently times are changing where I'm not sure going to the Caribbean is the best Idea anymore unless its the 3 or 4 I mentioned.

With the new schools opening up across the US and DO schools becoming more mainstream, the need to go to a Caribbean school is less in 2011 then back in 2003 when I started to look myself.

Bill.




9
  • DRFP Said:
  • Adoc2be Said:
I did not sense Gonnif was putting you down as much as he was clarifying his thoughts and knowledge on a topic that is somewhat controversial.

Controversial ONLY because of the rates of USMLE passage vs US based med school students.

As many older students look to run like lemmings away from the business world (me, I'm 46 almost 47), the Caribbean schools might be a route for us... good to have ALL sides compared and knowledge going in, rather than like you, find out half-truths and harsh realities after getting there.

Thank you for posting the information - I truly appreciate the insight you provide as I consider my options going forward.



I'm sorry to that I was upset, just many people in the past are quick to post things that are not 100% true.

I end up bringing out the data I have collected through out the years, charts and even names of Doctors who are FMG's

My point is the US is a US medical club, Nurses and Doctors. FMG's are not welcomed in many places not because they are not as competent as US medical professionals but because they did not go to school here in the US.

This is ugly and one day I hope it stops.

In clinicals this was not an issue, I spent a year in Baltimore doing Cores and none of the residents ever treated me or other Caribbean students differently then the US students.

But what I was hoping to do was steer people from the scam schools, the schools without decent faculty and clinicals.

AUC, Ross, SGU and SABA all have good decent campuses and in fact the first three are just as good as many US schools.

Saba is small but all 4 are approved by California.

All four have decent match rates.

But and this is a biggie

all these schools have a large fail rate during Basic science

15 to 30% some classes.

and this is simple, you accept someone with a 2.8 and 20 MCAT and its a gamble. For the school and them.





This is my bad; I came off combative (an obnoxious arrogant new yorker, what are the chances). But Bill made me realize its not the docs that are issue. Once your in residency and in practice 99% of your colleagues won't care where you went to school; they'll care whether your competent. It is the schools that get to me where they seduce so many students who shouldn't be there.

And even that I shouldn't put all on them. Too many students are romanced by the idea of becoming a doctor. And so many nontrads get hit with this urge, this panic that they are old and that to hurry up and do it all as quickly as possible. Besides the ones who then take too much too fast in post-bacc and crash and burn, are the ones who jump into off shore schools without knowing enough. It happens osteopath schools as well, but to a lesser extent and even in ivy league med schools on occasion.


10
  • gonnif Said:


It happens osteopath schools as well, but to a lesser extent and even in ivy league med schools on occasion.



Would you please expand on this statement regarding the osteopath schools? I am applying this summer and would like to know of any downsides that I might be blinded to.

Thanks as always.


11
  • Ltap93 Said:
  • gonnif Said:


It happens osteopath schools as well, but to a lesser extent and even in ivy league med schools on occasion.



Would you please expand on this statement regarding the osteopath schools? I am applying this summer and would like to know of any downsides that I might be blinded to.

Thanks as always.



When the expansion of Osteopathic schools was occurring over the past decade, and during the first half of the decade when DO school applicant pool wasn't growing as fast, there were some less than qualified students who would get accepted, usually into newer programs trying to fill seats and who withdraw/fail out first year.

Actually, thats not quite correct. It wasn't that they were unqualified as much as it was really not being prepared for the rigors of med school. More the absolute drinking through a fire hose/life style change with family that was the killer. That has happened to a few OPM members who in addition to having dreams dashed have large loans to deal with.

But I have also seen it with a member who went to Ivy League UG, then to Ivy League Post-bacc and Ivy League medicine who with family changes and issues had to withdraw.

It one of the reasons that I recommend indepth post-bacc for students. It is isnt just to show med schools what you can do; it is for yourself to find out as much about the process and life as you can. If you are thinking of spending 10-15 years of your life in training and hundreds of thousand of dollars, then a part-time post bacc at a state school for several thousand dollars seems a worthwhile investment. Better you find out then, before you rack up huge loans
12

There are two more thoughts I would like to add to this


GPA, is how well you study, do the work through time


Also it shows how well you “Mastered the Material”


MCAT is how well you can think through problems


Together its a snapshot of you the person’s academic ability.


GPA and MCAT together = Ability


the MCAT and Step one correlate with each other, Low MCAT score will = a low step one score.


Too many people just do not understand this and try to skip the foundation for medical school.


I skipped a few classes in premed and it cost me


I would never tell someone to do what I did.


But I know only some will follow my advice.


If you read my old posts remember I have grown a lot since then.


And with growth comes change.


While I think the big 4 (AUC, Ross, SGU and Saba ) are decent Caribbean schools understand that if your GPA is low and MCAT low and do this, you are taking a chance. I know of people who are pretty smart and could not pass Step one or even get the chance to take it because they could not pass the courses, despite the belief, Caribbean schools have no problem failing people out. Understand this is not bad but a good thing.


Do you want your Doctor taking care of you be the one who couldn’t pass Basic science for real?


Or the USMLE?



13
  • DRFP Said:
[Saba is small but all 4 are approved by California.



Can you expand on this, please? What do you mean by approved by Californiz?

I thought AUC/Ross/SGU had hospitals connected with them for MS 3 and MS 4.


14

The California Medical Board maintains it’s own list of approved foreign medical schools. Graduates from foreign medical schools on this approved list can be licensed in California. Graduates from foreign medical schools not on the approved list cannot be licensed in California. The California list is considered the most restrictive in the nation and many other states (I think 13 states in all) use the California list as their list of approved foreign medical schools. Generally, if a foreign medical school is on California’s approved list, then graduates from that foreign medical school should be eligible for a medical license anywhere in the United States.


And, yes, the big 4 Caribbean medical schools offer stateside clerkships. You can find out more about this on ValueMD.com .

15

I know about AUC and Ross’s ability for clerkship but that does not mean licensure.


What I am surprised about is that states do not list what schools are approved for licensure; worse, one could presume that clerkship means okie-dokie for licensure and then come up fail upon applicaton.


To me, that is a big black hole - valuemd does not really single that out either (I’ve been a member there for a few years after the snotty doc told me, given my age, I should consider the Caribbean - with my fancy 3.7 and 32+ MCAT score no less… jerk!)

16
  • ihopetobeado2 Said:
The California Medical Board maintains it's own list of approved foreign medical schools. Graduates from foreign medical schools on this approved list can be licensed in California. Graduates from foreign medical schools not on the approved list cannot be licensed in California. The California list is considered the most restrictive in the nation and many other states (I think 13 states in all) use the California list as their list of approved foreign medical schools. Generally, if a foreign medical school is on California's approved list, then graduates from that foreign medical school should be eligible for a medical license anywhere in the United States.

And, yes, the big 4 Caribbean medical schools offer stateside clerkships. You can find out more about this on ValueMD.com .



The other states may USE the Cali list but its not the final word. Licensing is on a Case by Case basis and even Grads from AUC for instance have been turned down in some states.

Most of the Caribbean schools have stateside Clinicals but

there are Greenbook

and Bluebook clinicals to consider

Some states require Green book and others Blue book are ok still others there are no requirements

I'm not a big Fan of Value MD, there are agents from schools recruiting students and causing chaos on the site at times, a lot of misinformation is posted there as well.

Read what you will and double check everything.


17
  • Adoc2be Said:
  • DRFP Said:
[Saba is small but all 4 are approved by California.



Can you expand on this, please? What do you mean by approved by Californiz?

I thought AUC/Ross/SGU had hospitals connected with them for MS 3 and MS 4.





LOL yeah connections, these are payouts to the Hospitals to allow the students to do clinicals there.

Last year when I did clinicals in Baltimore, the school paid about 2 to 3k for me to be there.

I'm not sure US schools pay for anything, I think it may be covered under medicare like residency but I may be wrong.

Also no school can give you a residency, this has been posted about the Big 3 in the past, its another misconception.

Residency is separate from Medical school.
18

Here’s California’s approved medical school: http://www.medbd.ca.gov/applicant/schools_rec ogniz…


The Caribbean big 4 are on the list.

19
  • ihopetobeado2 Said:
Here's California's approved medical school: http://www.medbd.ca.gov/applicant/schools_rec ogniz...

The Caribbean big 4 are on the list.



Any school on the list is better all around then the others I would add.

But the story of how Cali approves schools is interesting. It does not mean as much as some believe.

I think the CAAM approval means more when you understand the two.
20
  • DRFP Said:
Most of the Caribbean schools have stateside Clinicals but

there are Greenbook

and Bluebook clinicals to consider

Some states require Green book and others Blue book are ok still others there are no requirements



eh, can you explain what that means?

Also, what do you mean in your post after this one abour residency... I thought match was based upon course completion, USMLE, and interviews? So, at that point, medical school attended means a bit less (unless trying for Johns Hopkins or something like that)...

Also, the state of Minnesota licensing board response to where I could find the list for MN of approved schools, was a link directing me here:

http://www.faimer.org/resources/imed.html

Which really confuses me because as you and Richard have been saying, any country can get an IMED designation (any being loosely used here)... So what would that tell you from the MN Board's perspective?