Foreign Schools

I’m wondering if anyone else is considering foreign schools, Carib or otherwise? I have been checking into them for myself, because I graduate in December and can’t do anything to “improve” my application by June and am unwilling to wait over another year to apply to US schools if I do not get an acceptance this year. After I graduate in December, it’ll be back to full time (plus) with my home health agency where I do pedi nursing, but no classes in the Spring as of right now. Just wanted to hear froms others here. Went to another site for foreign schools, and the posts of the people who are apparently at the schools are pretty scary, in terms of lack of maturity, etc. sad.gif
Kathy

Hi Kathy,
Well, the Carib, St. Georges, was the first school I talked to way back when I started to get into this. They kinda fell into my lap. They called looking for my son who expressed an interest years ago about the vet school (he has already graduated and moved on), and I asked them about the med school. I always liked the idea of moving further south, and the carib was doing that big time - I liked that a lot, still do.
Everything I have found out about the St Georges is great - except the price. There pass rate is as high as US schools. Now that I'm much deeper into it and see that the cost is high for all schools, save your state school, then St George is still high, but not too bad.
I've applied to 20 schools, and the count is: 2 rejections, 1 hold, 1 interview with no decision yet. I'm with you when it comes to applying - I'm not sure I want to wait another year - not sure that I can since the industry I work in is going down the tubes. So I may be applying to offshore. Either St Georges or St Christophers, the later being a very new school. I don't know enough about St Chris, yet.
PM me if you want to talked more indepth about this stuff.

BACMEDIC,
I PMd you but i appreciate hearing from you. You never hear most people at my school talk about international schools without a sneer in their voice, and so I don't. Part of me tends to berate myself, because I think of Linda Wilson applying the second year with ten extra years on me (her age), but i have to do what feels right for me. Right now, I cannot see going through this process again here.
Kathy

Kathy and BACMEDIC<
Many people do look upon the offshore schools as being inferior and there are substantial obstacles to being able to practice medicine in the United States after graduation. Currently, many residency programs will not offer interviews to foreign medical grads even if they are US citizens. Many residency program directors have a very ugly bias against foreign grads. If you understand that fact going in and are willing to pay the price(usually offshore schools are pretty expensive and want money up front), then there is nothing wrong with attending medical school anywhere that you can get accepted. Many foreign medical schools produce fine physicians. It is really not the medical school but the residency that determines your style of practice.
Remember, no one can make you feel inferior without your permission. If you graduate from an accredited medical school and meet the requirements set by the RRC, then you should be allowed to enter residency and practice once residency is successfully completed.
Most folks in this business with strongly caution against attending an offshore school because of the difficulties getting back into this country. There are plenty of folks walking around this hospital who graduated from offshore schools that were not able to get into residency programs for various reasons. Some have elected to attend nursing school and are RNs; some are working as pharmacy technicians and some are working as lab techs. While many off shore med grads do make it into residency, some do not. Just be sure that you understand the rules (these are constantly changing too) and have a good idea of what you are getting into. It may be cheaper and better in the long run to re-take the MCAT or another class than to invest $100,000+ in a degree that you will not be able to use. Also understand that federal (sub and usub) loans are not applicable to offshore schools so you have to have some pretty creative financing.
You can put up with the “sneering” as long as you have that MD and the ability to practice.
Natalie

Nat has, as usual, summed it up beautifully. If you know the situation before you take the leap & are willing to accept those risks - then I say go for it. However, before I jumped into the deep end of the pool - there are no lifeguards here - I would certainly exhaust my opportunities stateside.
On another note, this is a purely anecdotal obsevation, there seems to be less scrutiny/bias against folks who have obtained European or Australian MD/MD-equivalents verus Carib MD grads. I know there are several programs in EU & AUS who accept Americans.
AUS: programs in Melbourne & I thin in Sydney (there are two there that accpet US citizens, 1 definitely in Melbourne, the other I think is in Sydney)
EU: several options…JP might chime in on this for us…there are at least 2 in Ireland, at least 1 in England & there are programs in Krakow, Poland & Prague, Cxech Republic. We used to have an OPMer in the Krakow program - but they long ago lost contact. The program in Prague is at St. Charles Univ and their adverts claim that all courses are taught in English.
Personally, were it me in this situation, I would go to the EU or AUS long before the Carib. According to the Carib grads I have worked with, there have been several, most of the folks in the Carib schools are people who could not get in in their home countries. So, your options to the US may not be the only limitations on where you can/cannot practice. At least with a EU or AUS degree, you might (check this out for certain) have the option of remaining in one of those areas to practice & those are primarily western-culture countries.

NAT AND DAVE HAVE MADE EXCELLENT POINTS, oops caps lock stuck. Anyway. There are factors to looking at this objectively. One is finding out what clinical situations are and how they stack up. The other is finding out about licensing eligibility and what the rules are. One last point is finding out what the students are saying and what the graduates are doing. I came here because the residency match and placement is 100%. Several students I just met that got finished only back in Sept. already got offers off match and were asked to start in January. I think both were for IM spots somewhere in NJ.
St. George’s does a great job of placing its students and is also close to $200k from start to finish. That is pretty pricey for an MD degree. I will get thru with under $100k in tuition debt. I did talk with several PD’s and they liked what we were doing here and I was encouraged by what THEY said. This is not a hasty decision to make.
I like the direction the school is headed. We added a new Dean last week in Dr. Poulter who was former head of the Royal Free Clinic and Medical School. He has credentials that are second to none and he really is excited to be here. In the UK, they are just now starting to charge fees for medical school. The fees are around $1700 a year for medical school. The protests are unbelievable. I laugh and wonder what they’ll do when it hits real money to get a good education in medicine.
SC is a private medical school based in England but not a formal UK school. The PhD programs will be as they will be based out of Dr. Poulter’s programs, I think they are in Dublin. So if someone wants to nit pick I let them. Frankly, once I get to clinicals in 14 more months, I can tell you more about that aspect of it. Our clinical students are getting rave reviews in the States.
We had one letter posted in the school from Brian Lapari who blew away the staff at a Yale affiliate Hospital and honored over NYU and NYCOM students. The hospital was using him for a “trial”. The hospital later contacted the school to ask for a formal contract to train our clinical students. SC must be doing something right.
Unfortunately, I can not comment on other schools as I know little to nothing about them. Do the research and make sure you like what you are buying…even if it is in the states. I know a lot of people who hate their school, but are stuck. They’ll still graduate.

Howdy Joe!
On a slightly different note, what is the percentage of non-UK (and specifically American) students in your class and do you think this is typical for other classes and other UK schools?
I’d be awfully tempted to go to school in either the UK or Australia just for the cultural opportunity alone!
I’m glad to hear things are going well for y’all over there.
Take care,
Jeff

Kathy,
your story of the pre-med office screwing up your paperwork has me wondering: are your applications complete and under consideration at any of the schools to which you’ve applied? I am too lazy to go back and look through other things you’ve said, but (correct me if I’m wrong) I think I’ve gotten the impression that the application process has been anything but hassle-free for you.
I ask because I do think that when you say, “I don’t think I can do this [apply US schools] again,” that you haven’t actually really given yourself, or the process, a chance if your apps haven’t been “clean” and at the schools for some period of time.
I know, I know, YOU have still put in all the work involved in getting secondaries done, etc. Not to mention taking the MCAT again, which is a whole 'nother realm of work to do. But – I just get the feeling that you’re not giving yourself, or your applications, a fair shot. Things weren’t done and in the offices early enough for you to give up on them IMHO. I know you’ve gotta do what you’ve gotta do, but this application year has hardly been ideal for you - my own suggestion would be to strive to make the NEXT year “ideal” and only go offshore if that doesn’t work out. JMHO, of course.

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Howdy Joe!
On a slightly different note, what is the percentage of non-UK (and specifically American) students in your class and do you think this is typical for other classes and other UK schools?
I’d be awfully tempted to go to school in either the UK or Australia just for the cultural opportunity alone!
I’m glad to hear things are going well for y’all over there.
Take care,
Jeff


Right now, only 5% of our students are UK. However, I’d add 5% more to that for students who are planning on staying here. With the BBC story on the school just coming out, I know that will change.
Rumor is, and you know how those are, is that the BMA is offering full UK accreditation if the school makes changes to the curiculum(sp?) is made. IOW, we make it a 6 yr program. US students like myself are not into that. The Directors also acknowledge that as well I think and who knows what will happen. The UK is short some 5000 docs here and they are hurting for medical professionals. (see above for the additional fees riot going on here)
Why should we change a thing here? I can do rotations at Yale and Hopkins! Why trade that for Ealing and some hospital in the middle of Essex?
In other schools in the UK, the reverse is true. 5% Americans or other nationality students. The UK system is having its lunch handed to it. But that is only my opinion.
I’ll let you know how Switzerland was for Christmas…skiing…ahhhhhh!

I too am looking at foreign medical schools, especially in the Caribbean. My credentials and age make me a good fit for these schools. Look at valuemd.com for a general and a specific web sites for many, many, med schools. And, Joe has been a help to me in evaluating St. Chris (England)too. I plan on going to Luton, UK soon for a personal visit. Financing med school is with MedAchiever and Teri private loans which are very accessible with interest rates at 5% or less for their products. If you have the patience and time, stay here in the USA, but check out your options too. The consequences of uprooting a family to a strange land should also be considered. Be careful out there! Aloha.
Surfergene

I am still several years away from applying to medical schools, but Kathy’s post and responses have me wondering if this could be a topic for discussion at the next conference in Denver. What are the challenges those attending foreign schools face over their U.S. counterparts? How easy/hard is it take the licensing exams and/or go into residency in the U.S. from a foreign school? What are the costs of tuition and “switching over” to the U.S. upon graduation? What about practicing in another country (the country whose school you attend)? Can you do that with a U.S. citizenship? What is the maximum time you can stay in that country without being deported? I realize that depends on the country. But, these are just a few questions I can think of off the top of my head about attending foreign schools. Perhaps Joe could give a presentation on what it is like to attend a foreign school. How do their curriculums differ from those here or do they differ? Sorry to get off the original topic, but I’m interested in what others can share on this topic. Thanks.
Love,
Stacy

Mary,
You’re right, with the pre-med office screwing me over, things got out VERY late from their office and may JUST NOW be making it to the schools. I don’t know what will happen from this point. This is my concern: If I reapply in the US, I will be a reapplicant and am obligated to show my application has improved. Since I am graduating in December, all I can really improve is the MCAT (tho it could use it!) The only other thing I could do is take some post-grad science courses (somewhere OTHER than UTD!). What is your opinion on that?
Kathy

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Perhaps Joe could give a presentation on what it is like to attend a foreign school. How do their curriculums differ from those here or do they differ? Sorry to get off the original topic, but I’m interested in what others can share on this topic. Thanks.
Love,
Stacy


Sorry for the lag here, but of course, I have been busting it. It’s an interesting question, with a relatively short answer. You get the same exact material, at least here, that you get at any US school. The main differences are in the PBL schools, we do only a little of that. We do mainly class time lectures. It is a US requirement that we attend 80% of our classes (which sucks), but it prevents the old carribean practice of only flying in for the exams. That practice was banned for Foreign Medical Schools that want their students to get licenced.
We have Clinical Pathology conference on Thursdays where a case is presented and students talk thru the issues. We do all the same classes that most lecture based courses do. We may do things a bit differently in some respects, but that is due to where we are being trained.
Hope that answers your questions.

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This is my concern: If I reapply in the US, I will be a reapplicant and am obligated to show my application has improved. Since I am graduating in December, all I can really improve is the MCAT (tho it could use it!) The only other thing I could do is take some post-grad science courses (somewhere OTHER than UTD!). What is your opinion on that?
Kathy


Kathy, sorry I haven’t answered before this. Unfortunately the reason is because… I don’t have a good answer. I know that when I was fretting that I wouldn’t get in off the waitlist, I had this exact same concern. I had NO idea what I would be able to show as improvement in my application. In fact, the one course I started taking during my application year, I dropped when I realized that I just wasn’t paying enough attention to do well in it. I am pretty sure that being manager of my daughter’s skating team wouldn’t have been a significant accomplishment even if they DID get a gold medal!
Hopefully someone will see this response to bump up the discussion and maybe provide an answer for your question. Here’s a thought: what happens when you withdraw an application that has been in an AdCom office for some time? Is your slate wiped clean that way? I’m not advocating that you do it, but I am wondering - since you’ve gotten this horrendously late start - and in fact if I am understanding it correctly, you are not sure that your application is complete to be considered yet? - would it be feasible, smart, stupid, I don’t know, to just pull it outta there and start afresh for next summer? Honestly these are all totally clueless questions - please don’t think I’m suggesting this at all. I am really at a loss to know what would be the best way for you to proceed since you’ve had this extremely unfortunate series of events. sorry