Hi,
I was wondering if any polls have been done here, or if you could make comments on the thought of women having an advantage over men when it comes to an older non-trad applicant. The reason I say this is that I can concieve a senario where schools could consider men who are in their 30’s, 40’s, etc… and who have not figured out their career yet as a sign of weekness, or of being a loser. I am not saying that is how I feel, in fact I am 45 yo male and am considering med doc school, I am just saying I could see society, and hence med schools, as having this outlook. However, in the case of women, they have the perfect excuse in saying that they have been busy raising children and being a stay at home mom. Women can fit the steriotype of being a “Dr. Mom”, where there is no such equivalent for a man, i.e., no such thing as “Dr. Dad” in society. So I wonder if we could get some sort of a poll going that considers woman getting accepted and men getting accepted or getting interviews.
I’ve never seen stats for this question. While your idea that women have the baby excuse but men don’t sounds reasonable at first, I don’t think it works. Here’s why. Although there are a few of us gals who were busy raising kids before applying to med school, a great number of female OPM’s had careers as nurses, engineers, lawyers, teachers, etc. Matter of fact, most OPM’s I know had a different career, even when they did have kids. Even I, a current SAHM, have a career under my belt.
So I don’t think having a “baby excuse” benefits women or hurts men in any way. People make career changes all the time. We just happen to be making one of the harder ones! And as you may already know, admissions overall is about 50/50 for men and women.
Come to think of it, due to the competitiveness of the app process and the need to “prove yourself,” I would think any applicant who hasn’t done anything outside of raising kids for, say, 10 years would be at a distinct disadvantage.
AAMC collects, and posts, all kinds of data for appplicants/matriculants at http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/start.htm. Unfortunately they don’t include an age breakdown.
Happy Holidays!
Judy
Judy
The AAMC apparently has the data of applicants via gender and age.
Their complete databook table of contents lists the following charts:
Women Applicants, Accepted Students and Matriculants to U.S. Medical Schools
Women Enrollment and Graduates in U.S. Medical Schools
Accessing that data requires a subscription to the data book and/or membership in the AAMC. Their web site states “Academic society members are 501c3 organizations with primary missions that include advancing medical education and/or biomedical research.”
Perhaps OPM can/should join.
A quick search gave some other possible places for info/data (see below). Anyone is a member of the AMA Women Physicians Conference and/or has a
JAMA subscription may be able to get the info.
(I recieved my MA in Sociology under a demographier, who was formerly at Columbia P&S school of Public Health; I’d love to get a complete set of applicant data and produce any stat we want)
AMA Women in Medicine 2003
For further information please contact the AMA Women Physicians Services
Department at (312) 464-5678 or join online at
http://www.ama-assn.org/go/wpc.
*****************************************************************
Source: JAMA, September 3, 2003-Vol 290, No.9 , 1190-1196. Educational
Programs in US Medical Schools, 2002-2003.
JAMA:Medical School Education in US 2003
Data Sources The Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) Annual
Medical School Questionnaire, the Association of American Medical
Colleges (AAMC) Databook, and the AAMC Data Warehouse: Applicant
Matriculant File. The authors of this, Barbara Barzansky, PhD; Sylvia I. Etzel,
have annual JAMA articles on this going back several years. Abstacts are available online for free
Quote:
However, in the case of women, they have the perfect excuse in saying that they have been busy raising children and being a stay at home mom. Women can fit the steriotype of being a “Dr. Mom”,
Presumably, anyone who applies to med school later in life would be asked what they’ve been doing up til now. The only women who would fit the “stereotype” you describe are the ones who’ve actually spent those years as stay at home moms. There is no reason to assume that that’s what most women who apply have been doing. Some have, of course, but many have pursued other careers. Anyone who applies to med school will have to explain why they’re there and what else they’ve done in their lives.
Quote:
Hi,
I was wondering if any polls have been done here, or if you could make comments on the thought of women having an advantage over men when it comes to an older non-trad applicant. The reason I say this is that I can concieve a senario where schools could consider men who are in their 30’s, 40’s, etc… and who have not figured out their career yet as a sign of weekness, or of being a loser. I am not saying that is how I feel, in fact I am 45 yo male and am considering med doc school, I am just saying I could see society, and hence med schools, as having this outlook. However, in the case of women, they have the perfect excuse in saying that they have been busy raising children and being a stay at home mom. Women can fit the steriotype of being a “Dr. Mom”, where there is no such equivalent for a man, i.e., no such thing as “Dr. Dad” in society. So I wonder if we could get some sort of a poll going that considers woman getting accepted and men getting accepted or getting interviews.
Hi there,
The most important determining factors for acceptance to medical school, at any age, is going to be your GPA and MCAT scores. After those, you are expected to have some meaningful experience, volunteer or paid, in the healthcare or community service arena. If you are a marginal candidate in terms of GPA, you can help yourself with a strong MCAT. You can have good letters of recommendation from faculty (who know you well) at your undergraduate or graduate institution and place of employment.
The other unwritten qualification for a person applying to medical school in ther 40s and 50s is a very high energy level. I look at Kaye Blanchard, MD, Ph.D who has recently finished her General Surgery residency at Mayo Clinic. She started surgery residency at age 49 and never looked back. She has a very high energy level in spite of looking her age and having gray hair. When you meet her, you can’t help but be impressed by the energy that she emits especially when she speaks about the practice of surgery.
I have another friend John Dutton who graduated second in his class from GWU a few years back. He is an MD, Ph.D who should be finishing his residency in OB-Gyn. When I used to run the bike trails along Interstate 66 going into Washington, DC, I would often run into John who would be doing the same thing. He started medical school at age 48 and graduated well above 50.
As I have posted in other posts on this same subject, I had two male classmates when I started medical school at age 46, who were older than myself. I don’t know of studies but if you are looking for a reason not to apply to medical school, age and gender are not the reason that you seek. Medical school can be successfully completed and residency can be successfully completed after age 50. The folks above are good examples.
If there is a bias for non traditional students, it would be toward those non-traditional students who are determined to have the career that they want. The bias is in the direction of folks who refuse to take No for an answer and find a way to do what gives them the most satisfaction.
There are sacrifices along the way. Most non-traditional students have families and things like mortgages that may present substantial obstacles. You have to be willing to sacrifice quality of living unless you have a pile of money lying around to invest in your education. Life and family obligations can create substantial obstacles for the non-traditional medical student.
UVa, my current institution has several student over age 40 both male and female. Again, all have very high energy levels. In terms of residents, I am by far, the oldest resident at UVa followed by both males and females in their 40s (in family medicine, internal medicine and psychiatry). Out of the total residency corps of about 150, there are at least 20 who are older than 40 and one who is older than 50 (me).
Any poll that we start on this website is going to be pretty meaningless because acceptance to medical school is a very subjective matter. Medical school is not a reward for having a high GPA and MCAT score. You must bring something else (a total package) to the table besides your numbers on paper. One of my friends who was totally traditional with a GPA of 3.8 (double major) and MCAT score of 42 did not get into medical school on his first try. It took two tries for him to get in. He kept bombing his interviews and it took a couple of years for him to catch onto what he was doing wrong. You can be traditional and not get in as many people this year will find out. In terms of numbers, women applicants to medical school were greater than male applicants this year (a first) and in the classes that started last August, males to females were about even. Does this mean that if you are female, you are more likely to gain acceptance to medical school? I don’t think that you can make those conclusions just based on numbers alone. If you are a well-qualified male or female male, you are very likely to gain acceptance to medical school. If you are looking for a reason not to apply because the “odds are stacked against you from the start”, you can’t use age or sex as that reason. Too many of us old folks getting in and doing well and have ignored most of what “society” believes we should be doing at age 50.
Natalie
Natalie,
Eloquent as usual.
Quote:
The AAMC apparently has the data of applicants via gender and age.
Their complete databook table of contents lists the following charts:
Women Applicants, Accepted Students and Matriculants to U.S. Medical Schools
Women Enrollment and Graduates in U.S. Medical Schools
Accessing that data requires a subscription to the data book and/or membership in the AAMC.
Yes, I know it’s available as I used to see it all of the time (those stats came out monthly) when I was at Stanford. But unless you are able to access those data through an admissions office, they are difficult to get, if at all. Until recently I was also able to access the Consortium schools’ age data (due to a glitch in Stanford’s public web page), but that’s now offline.
Cheers,
Judy
Quote:
But unless you are able to access those data through an admissions office, they are difficult to get, if at all.
The data is publically available for a fee, either a yearly hard copy ($110) or a monthly subscription ($160) for a “non-profit non-member”
AAMC Data Book Order Form
“…After all, facts are facts, and although we may quote one to another with a chuckle the words of the Wise Statesman, 'Lies–damned lies–and statistics, still there are some easy figures the simplest must understand, and the astutest cannot wriggle out of.”
Leonard Henry Courtney
… and the data are NOT going to be worth those prices, trust me. Why? Lots of reasons: insufficient sample size, widely disparate backgrounds of applicants, schools with very different approaches to applicants outside the mainstream. Also don’t forget AMCAS only has data for allopathic schools - while I maintain that ANY med school can be OPM-friendly, osteo schools certainly have a better/longer track record for welcoming non-trads.
Bottom line for the OP, an older applicant regardless of gender needs to be able to make a particularly good sales pitch. I’ve been told that, in addition to the usual good grades, solid MCAT scores, and strong recommendations, an older applicant can expect to be held to a higher standard when it comes to maturity and a sense of direction. Maybe someone could cry “unfair!” that the standards are different for us, but frankly, my maturity and sense of direction ARE selling points for me both in getting into school and doing well. (Just about every one of my clinical evaluations has commented on this.)
These - grades, MCATs, LORs, and sense of purpose - are things that are under your control. Embrace them and make them work for you. You can’t change your age or your gender, nor can you go back and do a re-take on parts of your life that didn’t work out so well… so don’t spend any time fretting over those things. (do be thinking about how to positively package things like frequent job changes, unemployment, etc. - those are potential red flags)
I agree with soon-to-be Doctor Renard whole-heartedly, hence the “Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics” reference. From an individual basis, no matter what trends that aggregate data would show, it is completely meaningless to the individual effort that all of us must make in order to achieve this goal. The challenges of pre-reqs, MCATs, volunteering experience, and alike, are well-known. Yet, it is the presentation of a individual candidate as a whole that is judged by the admissions committee.
It is misleading and perhaps self-defeating to view this challenge as a competitive foot-race against a field of other candidates. Rather, I believe, you must view it as a climb up a mountain. There are many routes to take. Some will easily sprint up a straight path. Others will laboriously trudge over longer and less defined routes. Yet, no matter how you make it to the top, the view will be same. You must have the confidence and committment to make the climb for yourself and not as a race against others.
“Our belief at the beginning of a doubtful undertaking is the one thing that ensures the successful outcome of our venture." William James
“Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” T.S.Eliot
Rich makes a wonderful point that I think is often overlooked because of the competitive nature of the med school application process. Sure, there are lots of other people trying to get in. But how the Adcoms react to them is not something you can do anything about. All you can do is sell YOUR application. It’s YOUR climb, it’s not about how you look compared to someone else.
MARY… NATALIE… WELL SAID!!
I just joined the OPM site last week and so I just saw this post. But from everything I’m reading so far the first cut for the entering freshman class at any med school is GPA and MCAT.
NOT GENDER or AGE
There’s still hope for us slightly older dudes! 
Thanks
Randy
I agree with what everyone has said, but can I point out something else? I have NEVER EVER EVER heard of any bias on the part of medical schools that makes things easy for moms in their 40s. Quite the contrary. And yet, moms in their 40s do get into medical school, and so do dads, and others too.
So, there may be many things that hold you back, but the hordes of gunner old moms edging you out at interviews with their hypercompetitive tales of carpooling and little league practices will not be among them! I mean, really, please. There are so many things to worry about as a premed that your failure to be a mom in your 40s shouldn’t be tops on your list.
Seriously, all you can do is explain your own life. It sounds like you are feeling that you can’t explain your own life as well as you’d like. Make that job #1. Ask other people, people who are prouder of you than you are of yourself, what’s interesting and valuable about what you’ve done so far. Listen. Then start telling your story to yourself in a different way than you’re telling yourself. When you’re feeling lousy because you stack up badly compared to moms in the pre-med process, you’re telling the story wrong. The stories we’ve heard on this site about the ways moms are sometimes discriminated against in the interview and admissions process should put your concerns to rest, unfortunately. Seriously, I really do wish medical schools had a bias towards moms and gave lots of credit for motherhood; the world would be a better place if they did; but, in general, they don’t. So don’t worry about it.
Good luck, and welcome to OPM.
An (admittedly not quite as) old guy,
Joe
I guess I feel compelled to jump in at this point to back up joe’s point. I am one of those stay at home mothers. I have four children and I have been home with them for about 12 years. The idea that this has given me me any edge at all is completely laughable! In fact, I have a lot of explaining to do. Even though I have been very active in lots of ways, nothing can beat the feeling that I have invested in the lives of these four boys… but does this “count” as a long-term “extra curricular activity”? I would say I am at a distinct disadvantage in this endeavor, not to mention the internal challenges I need to overcome (I am just a mom, what will happen to my kids if I pursue this, does my husband REALLY understand what he is signing up for? How will we pay for all that childcare?). I am also the support person for my extended family since we live with my mother (my siblings are all busy family doctors) and I am here to look after her. Again, does this “count” in the eyes of the adcoms? Who knows, but it will be up to me to market myself, as I am, to them. Fortunately my husband is a marketing person, and he enjoys helping me present the best “total package”.
Liz
Here is a link to AAMC Age statistics. I don’t have comparable stats for DO schools.
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/archive/famg122001a.htm
Look carefully at the second table. The 99th percentile (meaning the very OLDEST 1% of matriculants) dropped from age 39 to 36 for women and from 37/38 to 36 for men in the last ten years. The 95th percentile, the oldest 5 in 100 women matriculants, dropped from age 32 to a not very old 29 in the same ten years.
Compare that table with this one for applicants:
http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/archive/famg112001a.htm
The number of older applicants is holding steady while their acceptances are dropping. Also note that the table shows older students are rejected at a higher rate than younger students.
Signed,
Call me “99.99th percentile”
Hi there,
While the number of older applicants rejected is larger, age (alone) is not reason for the rejections. Many older applicants have the extra burden of supporting a family and taking pre-med requirements. This is a very challenging task. Many older applicants have some “damage control” to do for previous experiences in college. This can amount to having to take a substantial number of courses to get that GPA up to the an acceptable level. It can also mean that as an older applicant, your recent academic work can be a 4.0 but your older work may keep your cumulative GPA less than 3.5. This puts you at a distinct disadvantage compared to a traditional applicant with a 3.7 GPA.
The competition from traditional applicants has gone through the roof. Many traditional applicants have posted very high GPAs, good volunteer experiences and high MCAT scores. With the economy being pretty bad, applications to medical school across the board, are trending up.
I still believe that any well-qualified pre-medical student, regardless of age, can get into medical school. Any non-traditional applicant should be taking advantage of our own Judy Colwell. This is money that is well spent because she has the experience to get you past the statistics and into medical school.
Statistics change from year to year and the competition is pretty rough traditional or non-traditional. If I had looked at the statistics for a 45-year-old Africian-American female getting accepted into allopathic medical school in 1997, I would have seen dismal numbers but the statistics were meaningless for me because I got into six out of six allopathic medical schools that year. If I looked at the MATCH rate statistics for a categorical general surgery residency match for a 52-year-old African-American female, I would find dismal statistics (probably non-existant) but I am now a categorical General Surgery resident at Cleveland Clinic Health systems coming from the University of Virginia (both very strong academic programs). In short, you have to ignore the statistics and pursue what you want to do. None of us is saying that this process is easier for a non-traditional applicant but it’s not impossible if you have your eyes firmly focused on your goal and take the necessary steps to reach it. Our whole purpose here on this Message Board and with Old Premeds is to state emphatically, " We wholeheartedly support our non-traditional colleagues in their quest for a career in medicine and we know that as more and more of us attain our goals, others will follow". No matter what the statistics say, if you can dream it, you can do it and we will support you and provide you with the best information that we can.
Natalie
Quote:
The number of older applicants is holding steady while their acceptances are dropping. Also note that the table shows older students are rejected at a higher rate than younger students.
Actually I don’t see that you can conclude anything about the NUMBER of non-traditional applicants based on this data. You can conclude that the applicant age for 95th and 99th percentile has essentially stayed the same, and you can conclude that the mean matriculant age for 95th and 99th percentiles has gone down a little. Since there is NO information about the size of these groups, we have no way of knowing if these are statistically significant trends.
When I was applying, matriculant data showed that people over 32 y/o had a much lower chance of getting into med school. As Natalie points out, this same demographic is more likely to have problematic applications (e.g. old bad grades) and with competition for med school spots heating up, it only makes sense that those with less-than-sterling applications would be less likely to make it in. I also recall seeing a chart with average MCAT scores - guess what, for the oldest age group (forget if the cutoff was 32 or something higher), average MCAT scores were lowest. Well, I for one am not going to scream “discrimination” if a 40 y/o with a 3.2 GPA and 26 MCAT doesn’t get in while a 22 y/o with a 3.8 GPA and 32 MCAT is accepted. Come on. I don’t think anyone on this forum claims that the numbers aren’t important - we might wish that were the case but we know the reality.
So I agree, it is harder for OPMs to get in. My question is, what’s your point, LaserGuy? Your past posts lead me to think that you’re rather bitter about what you perceive as discrimination. I don’t see it that way, but more importantly, I don’t see any value to that point of view. It seems to me that the lesson for OPMs to take from this data is, “Your application has to be the strongest possible to give you a decent chance.”
Another point to consider is that many non-trad may attempt to rely on “lived experience via age” as “I am qualified to get into medical school, I really know…” not true. You still have to demonstrate via the big three IMHO GPA, MCAT, and the SOFT componets (volunteering, clinical exposure, leadership,strong LOR, etc…) that you are a competitive candidate. Here at my school there are many non-trads that are exclusively relying on the “I am older hence I know better and have lived more” song to gain acceptance and I am afraid they are barking up the wrong tree with the song. Regardless of age you still have to jump through the same hoops that everyone else does if you want to get in period. Again, like Mary once said “It is their game and you have to play by their rules” Cheers.
I guess the point of my letter was that adult applicants are at something of a disadvantage and should not be asking favors from Admissions committees. Several forum correspondents have wanted special treatment for various reasons that seem good to us (family issues, etc.), but would not impress AC’s. I definitely applaud any older student going through this process, but I don’t want them to damage their chances. Remember the saying about Caesar’s wife!
Keep quiet about any special favors or postponements until you have a written acceptance.