I had a discussion yesterday with my premed advisor who pointed out a unique dilemma that I face as the deadline for applying to med school approaches (June 2012). As one who has messed up his post-bacc GPA, most U.S. med schools will automatically disqualify me based on that alone. So even if I do well on the MCAT (I am putting a year studying for that), those schools will never see that MCAT (assuming I do well), nor will they see the tens of thousands of hours of long-term health work and the dozen projects that I’ve done or started and run domestically and internationally, all of them offering free medical and surgery, and all with the poor, the outcast, and medically underserved.
How can I get med schools to look at my application in its entirety if they turn you away by dint of GPA alone?
Apply DO? Grade forgiveness getting poor grades turned into O’s?
I got nothing else. Bueller?
Call a few MD schools admissions office and see what they say?
How messed up is your post-bacc? Can you extend your post-bacc and use DO grade replacement?
datsa,
You have a very impressive background that I’m sure is bound to resonate with an adcom somewhere.
It is true that there are some schools that do process the primary applications they receive through a computer that will automatically screen out applicants that do not meet some preset MCAT/GPA threshold (UC San Diego is one school that I know of that does this) such that applications not meeting this threshold will never be seen by a decision-making human being.
It is equally true, though, that most medical schools do not engage in this practice, especially outside of California. Therefore, not every school you apply to will automatically disqualify you, meaning your application will make it into the hands of live human beings that will look over the entirety of at least your primary application before making a judgment call. So even if you were to get screened out of the applicant pool, it would likely not be the result of a computer automatically excluding your application based on some “automatic” cut-off.
In all reality, however, if your cGPA, BCPM GPA, and, especially, post-bac GPA are ALL <3.0, AND with a downward trend, you are in for an extremely difficult time and overt rejection is a staunch possibility. It will be near next to impossible to get into any medical school (DO vs MD would be irrelevant). Even SMPs (especially those with linkage) require a minimum GPA of 3.0 for admission.
So just exactly how bad is the damage? Are you willing to share this? Is your post-bac GPA <3.0?
Did you trend downward? It’s hard to give specific advice without knowing the specifics of your situation.
Sorry - a technical glitch has forced me to split this into 2 posts.
datsa,
You can take heart that most med schools will see that MCAT (assuming you do well), and yes they will they see the tens of thousands of hours of long-term health work and the dozen humanitarian projects that you’ve done or started and run. It will be important for you to carefully choose (a lot of) schools to apply to that share the same values & vision that you do (working at here and abroad with the poor, the outcast, and medically underserved) when the time comes next year to apply. While you may have to leave California to follow your dream, I don’t think you will necessarily have to leave the country just yet.
Alot of DO schools have an auto-secondary for those applying so you would be able to get more of your story in front of a committee member.
Thanks for your feedback on this. I have written about my situation before, but at that time I believed I would have fared better. I was gravely mistaken.
My Post-Bacc GPA (mostly sciences, but some social science) is 3.26. I won’t be able to extend it beyond this semester; the school is making me finish with a second bachelors double major in Biochemistry and Microbiology. I had a downward trend for a number of semesters, but it has gone up in the past few semesters. I just got far too many B’s; my school does not give out +/- grades so if you miss an A, you get a B. There are no A- nor B+. If there was, my GPA would be higher. Maybe I can raise it a bit after this semester, but I am not optimistic. But I also have a few C’s, a few W’s and two retakes in which I did not do any better than previously. I was told that these alone would disqualify me.
How do I know which schools automatically disqualify based on post-GPA and which do not? There would be no use for me to apply to those that would automatically reject my application.
I had hoped to apply in-state, not only for tuition purposes but that some of the underserved populations with whom I have been working are unique to this state, but I will apply outside of California as well.
I am debating whether I should abandon applying to MD at all given my grades and just apply DO as well as to the Caribbean schools. I am currently trying to find a DO that I can shadow and perhaps get a LOR.
Datsa if you don’t mind what is your cumm. GPA? My postbacc might be better than yours but I also know that my cumm. on the MD scale is only around a 3.1 and I have an interview at 1 MD and 4 DO. So I don’t know that your 3.26 is really a death knell, if you are willing to apply outside of CA.
I second that a 3.26 is not bad and won’t ruin your life.
Definitely go shadow a DO and see how you feel about it, and ace the heck out of your MCAT. Don’t consider Carribean right now - if you can perform well on the MCAT there’s no reason to go that route.
I am not sure if the MSAR (for MD schools) lists details about post-bacc, but they do list cutoffs for cumulative. You can just buy the online version, the real life book doesn’t have any added value and sends you online anyways.
@BaileyPup: I am unsure of my cumulative GPA. I finished my first undergrad with a 3.4 over 170 or so semester units at the end of a long positive upward trend, which I attribute to finally finding my academic niche. My first few years in a different major were disastrous. But along the way, I also picked up several AA degrees at a community college (while still in the midst of getting my first bachelors) with a 3.95 over 60 or so semester units. However, I think those 60 units were wrapped into those 170.
My current 3.26 post-bacc GPA is over 180+ semester units, all but 18 of which are biological, chemical, and physical science courses.
So 170 + 180 = 350 or so units are a lot, which means every A that I get only changes my GPA my a miniscule amount. And I suspect that my actual unit count is probably much higher (> 400 units).
The fact that my post-bacc GPA is lower than my first undergrad GPA does not bode well for me. However, as I have just stated, my original undergrad major was not in the natural sciences (although my minor was in Natural Resource Studies and so I did take a few science courses such as water quality, pesticide chemistry, and soil chemistry).
In your case, BaileyPup, you showed an upward trend in post-bacc, which probably made your application favorable in the eyes of AdComms. I essentially have no such trend.
@PixieSanders: I am looking at shadowing DOs now. I have significant hours working alongside MDs but never any DOs. I may try going to Western U to see about their volunteer opportunities; they are about an hour’s drive from me.
dat, I understand about the upward trend, but I think your GPA will prevent you from getting screened out, which should mean that your secondary will get a look. I understand your frustration, but I think you are selling yourself a little short. Once again I encourage you to llok outside CA if at al possible. I say this as someone who hasn’t been admitted anywhere yet so hopefully one of the more professional opmer’s will know.
As Richard says… BREATHE.
I echo Bailey - you are letting your self doubt and assumptions bring you down. Perhaps you are right, and all is lost, but I doubt it! Call admissions at a few of those CA schools, tell them your story and ask what they suggest.
And if you’re reading SDN, just get off that site for a few days. Those kids are negative to the nth degree and don’t think ECs matter, except to say that a 3.9 and 39 MCAT mean nothing without 3 checklist ECs. 
WesternU is having a preview event this weekend - not sure if you can get into it, but its worth a try. If not, they do them 2 or 3 times a year. If you want advice on getting in touch with a DO let me know, I’ll post a million more things here.
Hey Datsa - I agree with Pixie and Bailey. I also think that you could put a positive spin on your educational experiences over the last couple of years. If I remember correctly you spent some time trying to figure out learning techniques to get around test taking issues. Or maybe that was someone else - sorry if I am getting things all muddled. Regardless, if you did do anything like that you can talk about what you learned and how you turned things around. Sort of like when they ask you in an interview about your weaknesses and you are supposed to pick a couple that if you twist them actually end up sounding like strengths you are working on.
Definitely think about DO. They are much more interested in the complete person and at least at KCUMB, the service aspect of a person’s story.
Lynda
- BaileyPup Said:
It's not just DO schools. Most of the MD schools (80%) that I applied to during my application year had auto-secondaries as well.
- datsa Said:
Geez, from the way you were carrying on I would have thought you had a 1.95 or something. 3.26 is honestly a little on the low side for accepted applicants, but it is by no means a deal breaker especially for someone with your amazing background if you apply early, broadly, and with a decent MCAT (28+ for DO or 32+ for MD).
I mostly agree with the advice the other posters above have given you, except I am going to be the lone dissenter and say I think you could go for an MD. The national average for accepted applicants is ~3.7 at BOTH DO & MD schools so if you're non-competitive for one, you would be non-competitive for both. Might as well apply to both.
Besides, AACOMAS grade replacement mechanics won't work for you if you cannot take any more classes beyond what you've already taken.
I disagree with this widely held notion that allopathic schools are all cold-blooded numbers driven automatons that don't value you for the whole person nor the entirety of your application and all of the special talents and unique backgrounds applicants like yourself can bring to the table. Sure there are more than a few research-driven MD schools that do everything they can to inflate the stats of their incoming class to attract NIH grants and inflate their "prestige", but this is not every allopathic school, or even the majority.
datsa,
Since you are in southern California, I highly encourage you to look into the joint UCLA-Drew MD program. My former research PI & boss, a psychiatry professor, was an adjunct faculty member at UCLA Geffen SOM and I can tell you that applicants with your background would be highly sought after by the Drew program. I don't think your GPA would be your undoing as long as you dominate the MCAT and have one heck of a personal statement. FWIW, there was another OPM'er - twistqueen - who got into that program and I believe she had some past GPA "baggage" as well.
- datsa Said:
You were told wrong.
- datsa Said:
This I'm not sure about. You may have to make some phone calls and send some e-mails to med school admissions offices. Expect delays in responses until about March when the current application season is over.
I can tell you from having worked as a staff research associate at the UCSD School of Medicine (my PI was on the adcom that year) that UCSD will automatically screen you out. But this was back in 2003 so I'm not sure if that's still the case.
Thank you all for your responses. I think my premed advisor’s “dressing down” of my current GPA circumstances put the fear in me regarding “my chances.”
@PixieSanders: I will see about going to the Western U event this weekend. And, yes, I would like your advice in getting in touch with a DO. But I would like to do more than just talk to one; it would be nice to work or volunteer with one, especially if they are working with the medically underserved.
BaileyPup: I am looking outside California. Because my current medical interest is in rural health, both domestically and internationally, I am especially interested in applying to those states schools that have strong rural health medical programs. I will also apply to more urban programs as well since about 2/3 of my less recent but long-term ECs are urban-related.
LJSimpson: Yes, I do have some reading disabilities, in particular, I read too slowly ~ 1/3 the rate of most students. I have had speech and reading problems since childhood, but most never interfered with my learning. But the reading issue does explain why in some courses, it would take me hours to read a few pages of a textbook, and in some courses I never finished the exams so I got a lower score. I never realized this until my biochemistry professor pointed it out and sent me to the disabled student’s program for testing. For the past year, I have been working with a reading tutor, who has helped me increase my reading rate through both comprehension exercises and eye exercises. That paid off well last semester. I hope I will be ready for the MCAT this Spring since it is a timed test.
TicDocDoh: Receiving auto-secondaries would be nice. I will look into the UCLA Drew program; Drew Hospital has had some problems recently with their accreditation but perhaps their med program is still okay.
My general opinion of pre-med advisors at universities is that they are typically faculty of the Biology department whose job seems to be to tell people not to go t med-school. I had one tell me this 15 years ago and am now in the position I am in because of it.
Not saying advisor’s need to be cheerleaders, but many seem to be ivory tower academians, who love to crap on your dreams.
- BaileyPup Said:
Exactly!
As far as most premed advisors trying to steer people away from medicine as a career, my take is that:
- Most premed advisors are PhD’s not MD’s so they naturally want you to go into what they know best, PhD scientist fields.
- They feel that most premeds are not going into medicine because they want to further medicine or do things for humanity, but because of the money. Maybe our society needs to start paying PhDs on the same scale as doctors, or perhaps our society should just pay doctors significantly less.
- Many premed advisors are forced into that role; they’d rather be doing research and teaching than advising applicants to pursue an outside pursuit (MD) rather than one the track they know.
- datsa Said:
1. Most premed advisors are PhD's not MD's so they naturally want you to go into what they know best, PhD scientist fields.
2. They feel that most premeds are not going into medicine because they want to further medicine or do things for humanity, but because of the money. Maybe our society needs to start paying PhDs on the same scale as doctors, or perhaps our society should just pay doctors significantly less.
3. Many premed advisors are forced into that role; they'd rather be doing research and teaching than advising applicants to pursue an outside pursuit (MD) rather than one the track they know.
I see where you're coming from, though I'm personally a bit less harsh towards advisors. I think that many of the issues that Nontrads experience is due to the advisors simply not being geared towards us.
Their experince is largely limited to traditional students. This can have several effects. I'm going to make some generalizations here, so please take em with a grain of salt, and understand that it's not my intent to badmouth anyone, or say that we're necessarily better; just to share a bit of possible perspective.
Many "regular" premeds don't know what they're getting into. They don't know what a real job is like, let alone a job in medicine. Their motivations may be skewed. I'm pretty sure the number of "premeds" at the start of college is significantly bigger than the number by the end, which itself is bigger than the number that get into med school. A lot of the attrition in this process occurs in the undergrad phase. So advisors are going to be cynical.
For many traditional students, the perception is the need for perfection. If they don't have 4.0s, they'll never get in! So they think. And advisors know this isn't entirely true. Still, numbers are one of the biggest differentiating points among applicants, especially the boring ones ;). And a lot of undergrad grade issues come from distractions - partying and the like. I know that was an issue for me. So an undergrad with bad grades, and already questionable motives and perspective... and an advisor may be discouraging in that case.
Now, as nontrads, we often carry a somewhat different perspective. And I think a lot of the advisors aren't used to that, as what they generalize from 95% of their students may or may not be applicable to nontrads.
I don't think it's an issue of malice, or intentional discouraging of our wants and dreams. I think it's more a difference in perspective.
And again, all of this is obvoiusly an overgeneralization. And "we non-trads" aren't necessarily any different or better than the foibles I mention above, just like they probably don't apply to most tradtional students.