Well, I haven’t posted here in a long time. I’ve been too busy with post-bacc program (second bachelor’s) school but grade-wise has been a disaster. My GPA from undergrad was 3.4, but now my Post-Bacc GPA is lower than that. I’ve gotten mostly B’s, and in the last two semesters, 3 C’s (Biochem II, genetics, and advanced organic chemistry – not taken all at the same time but with a few other classes. I took the advanced ochem to make up for B’s in regular Ochem). I am currently retaking the Biochemistry II, and I plan on retaking the genetics and advanced ochem.
So what am I doing wrong? Well, in looking over those courses in which I got a B or lower, the pattern I’ve seen is that I tend to do poorly on one or two tests, and that prevents me from getting an A despite doing better on the other tests.
The issue is not one of studying, but of recall; I am very diligent about studying, but don’t have adequate a recall ability for large amounts of material. My approach to studyin is to spend some of my time first trying to understanding the material, and then trying to memorize the material. I say “trying” because inevitably I find myself confusing one set of memorized material with another under test conditions. Some of professors suggested using the university’s disabled student services to get more time on tests, but my problem is not one of insufficient time, but not being able to retrieve the information and do so correctly. Having more time on a test won’t change anything. Several of my professors have suggested that this may be just a symptom of old age in my case. Yes, I know that there are older oldpremeds on this site who have no problem with recall (Presse comes to mind; I’ve always admired his ability to do well in his courses).
It seems that my chances of succeeding at anything that requires a good recall ability is beyond me. So that includes the MCAT, med school, and doctoral programs. (I originally wanted to do an MD-PhD but my biochem professor thinks that I would be too old to do a PhD).
So I am weighing on whether or not to give up. I know that one of the mottos on this site is “never give up” but perhaps it is time.
You aren’t interested in a Caribbean School? I know a girl who did 3.4 gpa and a 19 on her MCAT and she is working away on an Island on her way to her dream. What’s sad is, your grades compared to any other student are still great. It’s all relative. Testing can be a weakness for me, as well. My Psychology professor said to not beat yourself up. It lowers a persons self esteem and confidence. I hope you continue on and let someone else judge your abilities. As humans we are so much harder on ourselves than others may be.
- Kimberly_h Said:
Actually given the competitive nature of med school admissions, recent C"s in core (to premeds) courses can kill an application to a US med school.
IMHO, finding out the core of the problem is essential however difficult it may be to accept. I was Dx with adult ADD a few years ago and after taking meds and changing/strengthening my study habits, I went from a mostly "B" student to a straight "A" student in one year.
Don’t give up completely. There’s a kid at my college who gained acceptance with a 3.3 to WV.
A large group of us will not have a 3.4 after completing premed. The trending matters but who knows what can happen with a good MCAT and all the rest of the stuff.
Before you give up, why not listen to your professor(s)?
Disability services can do wonders for test taking issues - longer time, private rooms, test taking strategies, and more.
To me, if you give up without at least attempting to solve the problem, without listening to those gurus with PhD on their transcript, then maybe, you’re right - med school isn’t all that for you.
But if med school IS your dream - then listen to others who see a gaggle of students all the time and just want to help.
G’luck!
Hey, Nahani,
I know whereof you speak–I had difficulties in long-ago undergrad, in recent premed, and (continuing to struggle) in med school. This is just hard stuff for us mere mortals. I don’t know anyone who finds it easy.
Oh, there’s a couple of geniuses in my class who can ace a 56 question physiology exam in 30 minutes, while most people take 60 to 90 minutes and hope for a B. But it’s not clear that they’ll be particularly great physicians–there’s no proven correlation between high grades and quality of a doctor.
What you will need to do, to continue down this path, is figure out where your weaknesses are and address them. It’s easier when you have smart, perceptive people helping you in this. Idle advice like “give it up” or “you’re too old” is a cop-out and likely doesn’t address your particular issues. More useful would be to discuss how you approach a subject and how you prepare for an exam, and see where you can become more a more efficient and effective learner.
It’s understandable that you feel discouraged. Hardly a week goes by that I don’t wonder whether I’m doing the right thing–both for myself and for my family–but usually I get over it. It helps to bury oneself in one’s work, so as not to spend too much time navel gazing and wondering whether this is crazy. Of course it’s crazy! Just keep plugging away, one step at a time, and ultimately there is an end in sight.
Regarding your C’s–consider retaking those same courses and replacing them with at least B’s, and you will stand a better shot at getting into osteopathic programs where they count only your most recent (and hopefully best) scores, not every single course since freshman year as the MD programs do. This will at least help get you in the door for more interviews.
If it were me, I wouldn’t spend a lot of time on topics such as advanced organic chemistry unless you plan to do basic research and need that level of understanding. Orgo is an important foundation for the topics you’ll need to master in med school, but believe me that the subject of orbitals barely comes up. I don’t think I’ve heard the word since summer school orgo, in fact. Medical biochem has a lot of mechanisms, and it’s good to understand them, but no one will expect you to draw them out on an exam.
Also, evaluate your MCAT aptitude. If you find you are scoring low on practice exams, especially verbal, you have some work to do in exam taking skills. If you do well in verbal, it means you have your reasoning skills in order and you need to focus on the retention and regurgitation side which is what the first 2 years of med school are all about. There are all sorts of tricks out there–mnemonics, white boards, study groups, flash cards–you have to find the combination that works best for you. If you’ve never worked with a study group, give it a try–many people swear by them.
Don’t give up until you have to. You’re a smart person and this is do-able. Best of luck,
- ttraub Said:
Actually, I think what you have to learn depends on the school. When I took Medical Biochermistry, I distincly remember test questions such as on which carbons are the OH groups in testosterone! Yikes!! So no I didn't have to draw them but I sure as heck had to know quite a few structures.
Oh, BTW when I said “it’s sad your grades compared to any other students is great” I was referring to non-medical students as the “any other student”. I wanted to clarify that. I know that the competition is tough among your premed competitors
Maybe you are going about the way to “retain” information wrong…have you tried doing 1000’s of MCQ? some folks will not be able to retain loads of info but IF they apply it for some it sticks. Good luck.
The decision to stop your journey towards medical school is, of course, yours to make. However, unlike deciding to start the journey ending it should take a much longer time and consideration to do.
First of all, there are the feelings of failure. That you just could not do it. This may lead to a lot of self esteem issues that you will have to deal with for the rest of your life. It is what I call the “What if…” Syndrome. You will constantly ask yourself What if you decided to stick to your pre-reqs and apply anyway? What if you leave your classes now and decided to try again? etc, etc. These are questions that will eat you up from the inside out.
Then there are the questions from people who you have told what you are doing. And while I am a person that believes that it is not important what other people think it certainly IS important because it may affect how your socialize in the future. You may forgo going to this person’s party because they always ask if you are going to try again…etc, etc.
If you have taken out loans for your endeavor, they still need to be paid back and this may not sit well with you.
Among other things, I suggest you do not “knee jerk” the decision to stop trying without sitting down, taking a break, clearing your mind, and think about everything.
I once had the same issue with recall that you are talking about. It came down to being able to find a spot in the library and using a tape of White Noise (in this case a Thunderstorm) to prevent my mind from wandering and not getting distracted by things. Also, taping the lectures and just listening to them during my commute to work or to school or simply on the couch without typing notes helped.
The key to recall is repetition, repetition, repetition.
Take your notes, and then before starting the next set of notes read everything you prepared until that moment. If you need to, add visual cues to your studying so that you can have an association. In addition, do not get nervous before an exam. This creates a mental block and you will not recall things. If you see that you are doing this, take a moment, maybe 2 minutes and do a breathing exercise to calm down. And then begin again.
Medical school is simply recalling all of the information that you have been given. And while at the start is is daunting, as you repeat things you will notice that when you see certain key words or phrases, things just pop into your head and you recall them.
But please. Before ending your post bacc, think long and hard about it. Do not make any rash decisions. But in the end, only you can make this decision.
Good Luck.
Actually, I did listen to my professors and contacted them. The disabled student services program never got back to me; when I inquired, I was told that they didn’t think they could help me.
I’ll try again this upcoming week.
I took the advanced organic chemistry in order to make up for getting B on my third attempt at Organic Chemistry I (the order was originally D, then C, then B – I was hoping for an A). I also got a B in Organic Chemistry II). But I got that D and C in 1984, when I first went to college. Yes, I’m that old (mid 40s).
BTW, my sister-in-law went AZCOM. She is now doing a combined dermatology/internal medicine residency in Florida, a 5 year program.
Gabe, I agree that I shouldn’t make a rash, hasty decision. But, I am not optimistic at all. I’ve tried to emulate the study habits of those classmates who are doing well, but I have not been successful. For example, one of my friends – who has a 3.9 GPA and just got accepted to UCSF – likes to do frequent reviews while he is studying. He goes about things by reading a section or chapter or doing a problem, and then asking himself, “What did I just learn?” I tried his approach, but I can’t even remember something I just read a few minutes ago. I must go back and re-read it over and over again ad nauseum.
Lastly, Pathdr2b:
I am going to look into this ADD issue. Perhaps inability to focus in also a contributing factor. I am very easily distracted by noise and voices while studying. In order to concentrate, I must use these 
hearing protectors while studying; occasionally, I have even taken a test wearing them, but only if the professor approves. I find my ability to concentrate is much better. They block out about 29 decibels of sound although I can still hear noise through them but greatly diminished. Thanks for the insight; I’ll start with the disabled students program to find out if they have any referrals for ADD testing.
- gabelerman Said:
The key to recall is repetition, repetition, repetition.
Take your notes, and then before starting the next set of notes read everything you prepared until that moment. If you need to, add visual cues to your studying so that you can have an association. In addition, do not get nervous before an exam. This creates a mental block and you will not recall things. If you see that you are doing this, take a moment, maybe 2 minutes and do a breathing exercise to calm down. And then begin again.
Medical school is simply recalling all of the information that you have been given. And while at the start is is daunting, as you repeat things you will notice that when you see certain key words or phrases, things just pop into your head and you recall them.
Gabe, I'll try this approach with reading and re-reading. I am recording lectures; I find it helps for me to listen to the lectures and my retention does improve somewhat, I still get concepts confused or switched around on exams or simply forgotten. Sometimes I can recall the material when the exam is over, sometimes not.
Here’s a gem about learning I learned (I know redundant, LOL) when I took Neuropharmacology. It takes the brain seeing a piece of info 7 times, over a specified period of time, to commit it to memory. So as an example, when I was enrolled in med school courses this is what I did, and keep in mind that ALL of this is post ADD Dx and meds:
- Preview lecture
- PAY ATTENTION in class and make notes in margins. Much, much, much easier with meds.
- Go over lecture ASAP. At most, I had a 2 hour gap between when I was in lecture and when I could review my lecture notes again.
#4-7 depends on the class ie my apporach for histo was different than for biochem.
- Review notes, making notes in margin, of todays lecture that night. Or listen to taped lecture for difficult concepts, making notes in margin. For histo, I’d review slides + notes.
- End of week (Fri) - review each days lecture notes.
- Saturday, make note cards, study sheets, whatever I needed to study focusing on difficult concepts.
- Sunday, review note cards, study sheets the night before the next weeks lecture.
Also keep in mind that I had a 1.5 hour commute so I used that time to either listen to lectures or review note cards, especially if I had someting special planned wihtmy family.
I have always struggled with performing under pressure at exam time. My daily meditation practice and a perscription for Provigil has helped me quite a bit.
I hope to see many of you people in June.
M
PathDr2B:
Thanks for your study tips. My study regimen is similar, but the priority you place on tasks is different, so I will try that. Like you I wanted to do a dual degree MD/PhD (a social science PhD, not a biomedical one), but my grades and age do not make me a competitive candidate. I don’t know whether or not it is even worth trying. I’m just not that smart anymore; I seem to have gotten dumber over the years. Maybe your tips and a look into ADD will help.
You are very dedicated; I wish you well.
- nahani2 Said:
Thanks for your study tips. My study regimen is similar, but the priority you place on tasks is different, so I will try that. Like you I wanted to do a dual degree MD/PhD (a social science PhD, not a biomedical one), but my grades and age do not make me a competitive candidate. I don't know whether or not it is even worth trying. I'm just not that smart anymore; I seem to have gotten dumber over the years. Maybe your tips and a look into ADD will help.
You are very dedicated; I wish you well.
Thanks for the well wishes.
I just want to add that during my first year in my Pharm program I really did struggle academically (and publically in my blog, LOL). That entire first year I recorded the lectures and would listen to them to and write notes to clarify difficut concepts. Needless to say this took a TON of time and far more time than I would realistically have in medical school. But I learned how to listen for important facts and mentally weed out the rest. It also helped with my then poor note taking skills which is also someting I didn't know I needed help with.
And it's not that you're not that smart anymore, it's simply the fact that as you age, you learn differently, at least that's how I feel. I'm 1 million percent more visual now than I was in my 20's and since I know I have to see things to commit them to memory, I developed my study habits to accomadate that fact. Of course, the meds help tremendously with the being able to retain things I hear, but I still know I'm more visual.
Honestly, I think its just a matter of time before you get this all worked out and perform very well in school. You just need to be patient and fix what's fixable.