I feel for you DrDoug
It does seem unfair to have done something that you can not repair. I hope that you are able to find a suitable substitute.
On the other hand, is there a way to find out your own record? I am curious about my one juvenile incident…I do not want to lie on my apps, so I want to know if there is anything there or not…
I have seen the pay-for ones online, but to see your own there should be another way.
thanks
Dear Whuds,
Your kindness and apparent understanding of a very difficult situation in my life is amazing to me. I do want to point out one thing of great importance to me however…I did break the law. Not only did I break the law, but I behaved in a manner very unindicative of someone who should have the maturity to practice medicine, and I realize that I should have to pay for my mistakes. I DO NOT believe that I should just be given a blank slate…so-to-speak. I abused prescription pain-killers following a surgery that I had and then became addicted to them (many people undergo surgery everyday and DO NOT become addicted to their pain meds). I AM guilty of this indescretion, and I accept my punishment. I also betrayed the trust of not only the medical community, but our community as a whole, by attempting, and in a few cases succeeding, in obtaining these pain-killers by deception (calling in prescriptions for myself…pretending to be a doctor, when in fact I am not). I did not do these things as a minor or even as a ‘young’ man. I did them as an adult and I am responsible for my actions. However…I did these things…and this is not an excuse, but simply the reason for my behavior I believe…because I was already under the influence of drugs that impaired my judgement. I am guilty of these things…make no mistake of that. I believe that most psychologists would agree with me here though…that living your life under the influence of mind-altering drugs, especially opiates, is a wonderful way of delaying the maturation process. In that way, I have no doubt that despite my age (39), I have only the mental maturity of…let’s just say, probably a 24 year old. I cannot turn back time though. All I can do is stay clean and sober, and mature at a normal rate from my clean-date onwards…although, I think I may be experiencing a slightly accelerated maturation process because of the way society views me, simply because I am 39 years old and I’m having to ‘grow up fast’. I appreciate the things you have written, and I do agree that our judicial system makes it very difficult for convicted felons to re-enter society and succeed…it is true; there is a good deal of hipocracy in the system. Many people do break the law…some much more severely than I have, and don’t get caught…I saw a M.D. snorting cocaine when I was in the Bahamas one time, and have seen other doctor’s abusing drugs on more than a few occasion’s while I was working in hospital’s…not to mention the pharmacist’s! WOW! It is a known fact though, that these professional’s are at a high risk for substance abuse, because of their proximity and knowledge of the effects of these drugs. Nevertheless, I did break the law’s and covenant’s that are so important for the trust that is necessary to practice medicine. I fully recognize this and accept my fault in all of this. In the end though, I still must live my life and attempt to make this world a better place…that’s what I want to do with my life, and what I personally think is important…to myself anyway. I don’t think that society ‘owes’ me a second or third chance. I simply am asking for one…a chance…not to prove to society that I am right and that I am deserving of their compassion…but a chance to help other’s in a way that I believe I was given a natural talent for…in a way that I am passionate about. It is a huge thing to ask of anyone, let alone everyone, but I honestly believe that if given that chance, I can make a very positive difference in other people’s lives. I also think that my past experiences would help me to avoid the easy access trap that many doctor’s and medical professionals fall into. In any case, what it boils down to for me is…that’s what I want for myself…maybe I am not the best judge of whether or not I should be a doctor or not…that’s why we have medical boards…objectivity is important, especially when lives are at stake. The bottom line is that it’s not up to me at that level…I can learn as much as I want about medicine, patient care; about anything I choose to learn really…but it is ultimately up to the people in these positions of power to allow me to utilize what I’ve learned, and to let me help other’s in the way that I desire. Trust is a very hard thing to build, as I’m sure most everyone here knows…it is also a very easy thing to lose. I do believe that it should at least be POSSIBLE to be given the chance to regain that trust however. I know that from a practical standpoint, there are thousand’s of excellent and qualified people out there who want the same chance to make the kind of difference in other people’s lives that I want to make…using the same tools that I want to, and they haven’t made the mistakes I’ve made. Alas, I am stuck with me…and I can only try to do my best in this regard because I am responsible for me…just as I am responsible for my past mistakes. Thank you for your kind words though…I can certainly use any encouragement that I can get, regardless of what I end up doing with the rest of my life. Best of luck to you in your career, and by-the-way, I’m in awe of your courage and the courage of all of the people on this board who choose to undertake something as challenging as a medical education at this later point in life. It just prove’s that you are never to old to be what you really want to be in your life.
Misscompassion…I am by no means an expert in this area, but I believe you should be able to go to the courthouse and get a record of anything pertaining to your criminal record. I believe most of the courthouse’s call this division their Clerk of Court’s…I may be mistaken…obviously I am very aware of my criminal background, so I’ve never really had to do any research on this matter for myself. My mother does work in the courthouse in her hometown though, and I believe that’s what it’s called…or rather what the person in charge of it is called. I hope this helps. Good luck to you and thank you for your consideration of my situation.
Thanks DrDoug
I live 3000 miles away so I will call them on Monday. I just was granted acceptance to a school and want to be sure they will not see a blemish on my background check and reject me after my initial large deposit.
As for your situation, you show a great deal of maturity and responsibility and I think you are certainly qualified to help people in other ways since a medical license may not be obtainable to you. There are many groups that present to younger generations, self-help groups, etc., with the intent to either prevent people from making the same mistakes or help others through theirs. Maybe something like becoming a counselor could fulfill your need to better the world. anyway, I just hope you find what you need to fulfill that internal need. I feel it every day.
I know this is a different type of problem, but have you heard of David Pelzer? He was terribly abused as a child, has written books, and travels the country giving presentations to people educating them about abuse and helps victims get through their tough times. There is a need for people with your type of background, for better awareness on how to prevent or remedy the situation before it gets too bad. Others who are trying to recover their lives could certainly use the input of a survivor. I agree with the viewpoint of psychologists that being under the effect of an addictive substance alters your behavior. I see that from smoker friends of mine. I know they are caring people, yet they insist on smoking in front of me (i have asthma).
Whatever you choose, stay in touch. I would like to read of your success in whatever you choose in the future.
Dear Misscompassion,
Thank you for the way you choose to view me. I must say that it feels good to have you and so many other people on this board show such compassion and understanding given my situation. I have considered the counseling route…it is definately something that I could do with my background and it would give me a sense of worth…knowing that I might be able to prevent or at least curtail the self-destructive behavior’s that I experienced by helping others to see that very small decisions can drastically affect your life and in cases like mine, apparently keep you from doing what you truly want to do with your life. It’s certainly a serious consideration for me…and I have taken loads of Psych classes, so I think I understand a good deal of the psychological pathology behind these behaviors. I guess I will alway regret the fact that I can’t be an M.D. (or D.O.), because I have a love of the science part of medicine also, and I know that I would have been a good doctor. There is a saying though…that you do not choose your destiny, it chooses you. So perhaps all of this is God’s (or whatever power that you might believe in that governs the universe) way of steering me towards my true destination. Live is a journey and I have certainly had some interesting twists and turns. I will stay in touch with you and everyone on this site…I don’t think I have ever seen such honesty and genuine concern for others on any other board. This is a wonderful thing…it gives me hope for humanity as a whole and I am ever more convinced that people who choose the medical field, regardless of what path they choose within that field, are the people (with proper training of course) that should be taking care of other people. You said you have been accepted to a program…is this a medical school and is it your wish to become a doctor, or is it another path within medicine that you are pursuing? I apologize if you have already posted this information and I have simply missed it, but I sincerely hope your dreams are realized and that you are successful in your career choice. In my opinion, medical personnel are the closest individual’s to angels here on earth, whether they are EMT’s, R.N.'s, the various therapist’s or Doctor’s, because even though these are jobs and you may oneday become somewhat cynical about your job, I believe most all of you chose this field because of a genuine desire to help others. For M.D.'s, D.O.'s, CRNA’s, P.A.'s and many others, money is certainly a added benefit in some cases, but I don’t think we choose this field just for money…there are plenty of easier way’s to make money if that is all someone is interested in. It takes a huge commitment of time, energy and personal resources, not to mention a great deal of time and self-sacrifice to become a medical professional and then to do the job as well. I have to believe that most choose to do it because they really love the work. I know that many people have been critical of people who talk about the medical field as a ‘calling’…they want to emphasize that it is also a job, like any other job. I have to disagree there. It is a job, but it is not like any other job. It is a job that will break you apart mentally and physically if you are not passionate about it…in other words, I believe you really have to love what you do to be in this profession. Those that don’t usually find themselves leaving it if they are in it for the wrong reason’s…I’ve seen it happen to some people who didn’t have a true passion for their work. So, in short, I think referring to it as a calling is as good of a word as any. Take care to all of you and good luck…work hard and even if I cannot join you as a Doctor or Nurse, or any other medical professional, know that I am rooting for all of you and praying that you realize your dreams.
Oops! I forgot about your question regarding David Pelzer…I am familiar with his story and it is an inspiring lesson to all of us I think…not just myself or even those of us who want be in the medical field. His example is something that everyone could stand to learn from. I have to add that I am also flattered that you would consider me as someone who could someday accomplish what he has with his life, and overcome the terrible things that have happened to him. I hope this doesn’t sound insensitive, because I certainly don’t mean it to be, but his is a life that speaks to the saying that I mentioned earlier, regarding your destiny choosing you. Thank you for reminding me of his example Misscompassion.
Thanks DRDOUG, I learned many years ago never judge people and this board proves that many here think that way, we all make mistakes and I would hope we get chances to grow from them. I know I have.
I do know of ways to go to medical school and become an MD outside of the USA with what has happened to you in the past, but there are 2 problems with this if you cannot resolve it so it will not show up on a background check:
- You can go to school outside the US the check they want is a simple one and many times that gets by that simple check.
- Clinicals in the US most likely will require a background check before you start so you would have to do clinicals in another country like in South America ect…
- Residency in the US, background check so they get you there.
Your alternative as I see it is two fold:
- ( I really suggest this) Go to an Attorney who may be able to help you. if it is possible for expongement go for it!
- If you really have the Medicine “Bug” then consider outside the US to practice. There are millions in need of someone with your compassion. I have even considered Europe, like France or Spain in the past.
Good Luck to you and never give up your dreams, research as much as you can.
Dear Whuds,
I have been thinking seriously along those lines…I don’t really mind practicing outside of the U.S., and in fact, I have been considering moving to another country for some time now. My only concern with this route is the money. Usually those foreign med schools are very expensive, especially if you want to go to a good one, and I’m not exactly rolling in money at this time. If I can borrow the money and my background will allow me to borrow it, then I would be willing to do that. In the meanwhile, I am going to try and get as many of my pre-reqs out of the way while I’m here in the U.S. and see where life takes me from there…it may turn out that after taking O.C. I might decide to stay in the U.S. and pursue a degree that will lead me to medical research. At this point, I am just trying to keep my mind focused and my spirit up. I’m also trying to keep myself busy with work and volunteer activities that can make this world a better place…I am trying to cultivate a very ‘whole life’ approach to everything I do now. I do know one thing from my experiences, and that is that the more you can get outside of yourself and become a part of society, the more opportunities present themselves to you and the more you will be ready to meet any challenges that come your way head on. Thanks again for the suggestions…incidentally…in your opinion, what are the best foreign medical schools that you have looked at…if any?
One of the beautiful things about life is that we can learn from even the worst experiences - maybe especially from the worst.
DrDoug, it seems unfortunately likely that your history may prevent you from practicing medicine in the way you want most. If the empathy and insight in your posts here are any indication, though, I have no doubt that you will find the opportunity to use your experiences to help others.
The catch-22 in all this is, in my opinion, is schools don’t want to take you because of the strong perception that you won’t be able to get a license and a job. And of course you can’t get a license and job unless you get into a school.
In New York, if you have a felony conviction, you may after be eligible for what is known as a “certificate of relief from civil disabilities” (may be issued by court or parole board). This allows you to hold licenses. In New York, virtually all-professional licenses are issued by the Department of Education. If you have a felony, you are not barred from a license but require a “professional review,†which is usually an entirely paper-based review
During my graduate assistantship, I was a coordinator for a state college extension program in a state prison. Several of the inmates earned degrees and, when they were released, I assisted some in jobs placement, advanced degrees, etc. I assisted one such man who, after release earned an MSW (at Columbia no less!) and was eventually licensed. . The above mentioned MSW had gotten a “certificate of relief†and went thru this review getting of letters from professors, employers (he was working in a large social services agency, which he started while on work-release after a lengthy incarceration), etc and was licensed with little problem. It would seem to me that if you got into medical school and have 4 years of success, letters from professors, fellow graduates, etc, would likely lead to easy passage in a professional review. Basically, if successfully graduate medical school, you will get the license
So, the challenege is two fold. First you have to be able to explain on your application and overcome the hurdle the actual felony. Second, is to able to integrate and overcome the above catch-22 perception with the admissions committee.
my last comment here would be more “motivational.” for all the time, effort, and cost that you be incurring to complete medical school and residency, there is relatively little cost in trying (less than 10% of the time, effort and money to complete the training). You will be in nearly the same position if you go in life without applying as you would if you apply and not make it. You can only win.
Dear Rich,
Thank you for that information. That is what I’ve been looking for…a possibility that I can get licensed. If I can’t get into med school, well then I can’t get in…but at least I won’t have used up 4 or more years of my life just find out that I have an M.D., but can’t get licensed. Thank you for your comment’s and again, thank you to everyone else who has been so supportive here. I’m not going to give up yet. It’s my life, and I am at least going to try and live it the way I want to…with dignity, empathy and a desire to help other’s. If I don’t continue to try or if I just give up, then I will have commited a far greater crime than my felony conviction…the crime of not giving this life everything I’ve got! I can live with rejection…but I don’t want to live without giving it my best shot everyday…I can’t surrender…to me that’s failure. Thanks for the inspiration and best of luck to you as well.
- DRDOUG Said:
Dear Whuds,
I have been thinking seriously along those lines...I don't really mind practicing outside of the U.S., and in fact, I have been considering moving to another country for some time now. My only concern with this route is the money. Usually those foreign med schools are very expensive, especially if you want to go to a good one, and I'm not exactly rolling in money at this time. If I can borrow the money and my background will allow me to borrow it, then I would be willing to do that. In the meanwhile, I am going to try and get as many of my pre-reqs out of the way while I'm here in the U.S. and see where life takes me from there...it may turn out that after taking O.C. I might decide to stay in the U.S. and pursue a degree that will lead me to medical research. At this point, I am just trying to keep my mind focused and my spirit up. I'm also trying to keep myself busy with work and volunteer activities that can make this world a better place...I am trying to cultivate a very 'whole life' approach to everything I do now. I do know one thing from my experiences, and that is that the more you can get outside of yourself and become a part of society, the more opportunities present themselves to you and the more you will be ready to meet any challenges that come your way head on. Thanks again for the suggestions...incidentally...in your opinion, what are the best foreign medical schools that you have looked at...if any?
I have been thinking seriously along those lines...I don't really mind practicing outside of the U.S., and in fact, I have been considering moving to another country for some time now. My only concern with this route is the money. Usually those foreign med schools are very expensive, especially if you want to go to a good one, and I'm not exactly rolling in money at this time. If I can borrow the money and my background will allow me to borrow it, then I would be willing to do that. In the meanwhile, I am going to try and get as many of my pre-reqs out of the way while I'm here in the U.S. and see where life takes me from there...it may turn out that after taking O.C. I might decide to stay in the U.S. and pursue a degree that will lead me to medical research. At this point, I am just trying to keep my mind focused and my spirit up. I'm also trying to keep myself busy with work and volunteer activities that can make this world a better place...I am trying to cultivate a very 'whole life' approach to everything I do now. I do know one thing from my experiences, and that is that the more you can get outside of yourself and become a part of society, the more opportunities present themselves to you and the more you will be ready to meet any challenges that come your way head on. Thanks again for the suggestions...incidentally...in your opinion, what are the best foreign medical schools that you have looked at...if any?
Yes MD's outside of the US do make a lot less, but are just as respected. You still make a good living.
As far as schools? Well there are a host of Caribbean schools and some in Poland that are not too hard to get in. As long as they are WHO and EU recognized ( that is to say you could be Lic in the EU any of those countries) You would be good to go. Also you would have to consider the Language, You will also need to learn a new language to practice in those countries, It is doable if you want to. There is a possibility of even going to medschool and Practicing in England, if the school makes you eligiable for the Plab. then you would not even have to learn a new language. (Well sort of).
- whuds Said:
Thanks DRDOUG, I learned many years ago never judge people and this board proves that many here think that way, we all make mistakes and I would hope we get chances to grow from them. I know I have.
I do know of ways to go to medical school and become an MD outside of the USA with what has happened to you in the past, but there are 2 problems with this if you cannot resolve it so it will not show up on a background check:
1. You can go to school outside the US the check they want is a simple one and many times that gets by that simple check.
2. Clinicals in the US most likely will require a background check before you start so you would have to do clinicals in another country like in South America ect...
3. Residency in the US, background check so they get you there.
Your alternative as I see it is two fold:
1. ( I really suggest this) Go to an Attorney who may be able to help you. if it is possible for expongement go for it!
2. If you really have the Medicine "Bug" then consider outside the US to practice. There are millions in need of someone with your compassion. I have even considered Europe, like France or Spain in the past.
Good Luck to you and never give up your dreams, research as much as you can.
I do know of ways to go to medical school and become an MD outside of the USA with what has happened to you in the past, but there are 2 problems with this if you cannot resolve it so it will not show up on a background check:
1. You can go to school outside the US the check they want is a simple one and many times that gets by that simple check.
2. Clinicals in the US most likely will require a background check before you start so you would have to do clinicals in another country like in South America ect...
3. Residency in the US, background check so they get you there.
Your alternative as I see it is two fold:
1. ( I really suggest this) Go to an Attorney who may be able to help you. if it is possible for expongement go for it!
2. If you really have the Medicine "Bug" then consider outside the US to practice. There are millions in need of someone with your compassion. I have even considered Europe, like France or Spain in the past.
Good Luck to you and never give up your dreams, research as much as you can.
I looked up the CA code on expunging charges (which would include felony drug charges) and see that an individual who has charges expunged can legally answer "no" to any questions regarding criminal background except in three cases: running for state office, working for the state lottery, and certain licensing. The licensing part would include medical licensing. Based on previous posts on this thread, it may be possible for an individual to be licensed in some states with previous felony drug convictions. The immediate question for DRDOUG would appear to concern medical school applications and clinical background checks. If charges were expunged, I would think that DRDOUG could answer "no" on criminal background questions on applications including medical school applications. This could possibly be complicated by the AMCAS institution next year of uniform background checks on all applicants. My understanding of expunged charges is that they do show up on background checks, but as “dismissed†(this is different than sealed records- they are destroyed). Alternatively, expunged charges can show up as convictions followed by notations that the charges were later dismissed by the court. So, would dismissed charges show up as “hits†on a background check for medical school admission? Would dismissed charges show up as “hits†for clinical rotations? The CA penal code is as follows:
1203.4. (a) In any case in which a defendant has fulfilled the conditions of probation for the entire period of probation, or has been discharged prior to the termination of the period of probation, or in any other case in which a court, in its discretion and the interests of justice, determines that a defendant should be granted the relief available under this section, the defendant shall, at any time after the termination of the period of probation, if he or she is not then serving a sentence for any offense, on probation for any offense, or charged with the commission of any offense, be permitted by the court to withdraw his or her plea of guilty or plea of nolo contendere and enter a plea of not guilty; or, if he or she has been convicted after a plea of not guilty, the court shall set aside the verdict of guilty; and, in either case, the court shall thereupon dismiss the accusations or information against the defendant and except as noted below, he or she shall thereafter be released from all penalties and disabilities resulting from the offense of which he or she has been convicted, except as provided in Section 13555 of the Vehicle Code. The probationer shall be informed, in his or her probation papers, of this right and privilege and his or her right, if any, to petition for a certificate of rehabilitation and pardon. The probationer may make the application and change of plea in person or by attorney, or by the probation officer authorized in writing. However, in any subsequent prosecution of the defendant for any other offense, the prior conviction may be pleaded and proved and shall have the same effect as if probation had not been granted or the accusation or information dismissed. The order shall state, and the probationer shall be informed, that the order does not relieve him or her of the obligation to disclose the conviction in response to any direct question contained in any questionnaire or application for public office, for licensure by any state or local agency, or for contracting with the California State Lottery. Dismissal of an accusation or information pursuant to this section does not permit a person to own, possess, or have in his or her custody or control any firearm or prevent his or her conviction under Section 12021.
- njbmd Said:
- DRDOUG Said:
I have pretty much come to the same conclusion. The truth is that I really would rather practice medicine than go the nursing route. In either case however, I will have to deal with my felony background, and that should be taken care of first. I am also interested in doing medical research. Therefore I think, while waiting for enough time to pass to get my record expunged, I will go ahead and pursue a degree in biology or genetics (maybe chemistry even). That way, even if I am not allowed to practice medicine, I might be able to do medical research with a Ph.D. instead. Again, I really do appreciate all of you taking the time to address my 'situation'. Thank you and good luck to all of you in your career's...maybe, with a little luck and some more hard work, I can join you in the medical profession someday.
Hi there,
At this point,just about every hospital is requiring a criminal background check of every employee or person rotating through their facility. If you have a felony conviction, it is like to show up on that background report. These are done through the police and FBI.
I recently had to vote on whether or not to allow a student to attend clinical rotations because their background check came up with hit. I elected NOT to know what the HIT was for but I voted against allowing this student to continue. (When this student started, the medical school did not require a background check now the clincial affiliates require the checks)
The hospitals will only allow this student if we (a member of the faculty) constantly supervise this student. Constant supervision by a faculty member would draw undue attention to this student and would constitute treating this student differently from other students on the same rotation (besides being impractical for the faculty) so I voted with the majority. The student doesn't rotate.
This degree of criminal investigation was previously not in place even two years ago but it's in place now. I would really doubt if you could have your record expunged to the degree that these checks require for clearance. Even convictions as a minor will red flag though we are not given the details of the nature of those convictions.
This medical student is in a very bad situation because we cannot clear them for clinicals (we become liable to the facility if we do). You better bet we are doing some detailed background checks before we admit students now.
Natalie
Dr. Belle,
Would you be able to answer the question of whether or not expunged charges (showing up on a CBC as "dismissed") would be considered a "hit" for purposes of medical school admissions, clinical rotations, or residency? You may be in a unique position in being able to answer this question definitively.
Hi everyone! Well, I haven’t been on this board in awhile, and as a result, I forgot my old logon name and password. So I created another one…the one I’m using now…in short, DRDOUG and SECONDCHANCEMD are both me, the same person. I posted an introduction to myself under this logon name however, and someone recognized the similarities and posted a link to this line of posting…so thank you to that person for helping me find the responses to my initial post’s. It has been two years, and I am 2 years closer to being able to get my record expunged (although I don’t believe that will help me in any case!) and I also took some PRE-nursing courses (I was never accepted to nursing school, nor did I even get to the point of applying). Anyway, I pulled straight A’s in all of the courses I’ve taken for pre-nursing, but I’ve also become convinced that it is a waste of my time to pursue a degree in nursing…I don’t believe it will be any easier for me to become a nurse than a doctor due to my criminal history. What I have decided is that I will continue to take as many courses that will allow me to hopefully gain admission to a medical school in another country. My plan now is to try to become a licensed physician and practice medicine in another country where, perhaps, the need for an intelligent and devoted doctor out-weighs my past indescretion’s. I am still “keeping my nose clean” as someone else put it above, and I am not concerned about whether I practice medicine in the U.S. or not at this point. I really have no special attachment to the U.S., it’s simply where I was born and raised, and I am not a huge fan of some of the political activities here anyway (I won’t go into detail, as it has nothing to do with being a doctor). It may be that I am needed more in another country, especially a third-world nation, anyway…and being a doctor has never been about money to me anyway. I want to be a doctor, whether it’s in the U.S. or in some other country…it doesn’t matter to me where. Once again, I would like to thank everyone who has posted here in response to my post’s. Your help and honest opinion’s are greatly appreciated! So, thank you!
Sincerely,
Doug aka DRDOUG aka SECONDCHANCEMD