Hi,
I’ve been lurking for awhile and reading through as much as I could but still feel really overwhelmed/confused/etc…
short back story - I’m 31, getting ready to graduate Law School in May 05, have an almost 1 yr old baby, fiancee who has supported me through law school at a job she’s been ready to leave for a few years, and have wanted to become a doc for years.
I chose law school over med school for a number of reasons, including the low undergrad gpa of 2.2…But also because I didn’t have the pre-reqs so figured the 2 year+ of pre-reqs plus finding a med school, then going through it etc…was a much longer road to expect my fiancee to “wait” through…But basically through the whole law school experience I’ve had the nagging “want to be a doc” thing going on…
I’ve mentioned it a few times to my fiancee and she rolls her eyes at me…Ive gotten the statements that maybe I’m just a professional student etc etc…but I really think this is something I want to do, if I can.
The tentative plan (in my mind) has been graduate law school, work for a few years as atty while doing pre-reqs, show that I can do it(to fiancee and self) after do that, then apply and go on…But as I’m getting loan information together from law school I’m starting to get alittle worried…
I’m going to be saddled with almost 100k in debt before even beginning pre-reqs…
I hear the stories of docs making 50k a year, and it’s not about the money but to some degree it is ya know…I can’t justify going another 150k into debt to make 50k a year…
But then I read posts about some specialties making 150-300k … which seems more in line with what I had thought the salaries were…
Then there’s the whole malpractice insurance stuff…With some people saying that docs are fleeing profession because can’t afford to practice, while others are doing fine…
What’s the real story? What is an average guestimate of a salary for a doc after graduation etc…?
Is it likely that me with a 2.2 undergrad gpa and a 3.0 law gpa can do pre-reqs and get into a med school program?
If I have 250k of debt after that med program will I be able to pay the loan repayments and take care of my family? Or thinking just financially should I just be an atty and make 50k a year at that and volunteer once a week or something?
Can anyone help? does this post even make sense? I apologize for rambling and will probably need to clarify stuff, but any help would be great…
Thanks
Hi JD,
Why so quick to start another long-term commitment before knowing whether or not you’ll love working as an attorney, or in something related to your law degree?
I don’t mean to be negative, but what’s going on?
Some things to consider:
1. $250k in student loan debt is a lot, and that’s if you finish. What happens if you finish your pre-reqs, but don’t have the time, inclination, energy, etc., to go through with med school? That could be another $10k - $20k of debt.
2. You have to do very well on the MCAT to make it into medical school. There are roughly half as many medical schools as there are law schools. There aren’t too many slots open for average MCAT scores. Let’s say you go through all the pre-reqs, add on more debt, and then pull down a 22 on the MCAT. What then?
I guess you have to do what you have to do, but, given your situation, I’d give law a shot before even thinking about med school.
Thanks for replying…
Biggest reason that I’m sitting here not graduated and already looking at the next school is that the longer I’ve been in law school the less and less it feels like what I want to do…
But rather than starting and quitting I decided it might be better to finish out and graduate…
Additionally I’m thinking that I’ll probably spread the pre-reqs over a 5-6 year period, giving myself a chance to “try” legal employment just to make sure…But if I had to do it over again I’d not have gone to law school…
I figured I’d need a higher than average MCAT score, but just concerned on whether or not I’d even be viable with a good/decent MCAT and let’s say a 3.5 on the pre-reqs…when combined with my previous 2.2 undergrad and my 3.0ish law gpa…
along of course with all the other considerations from the original post and some others I didn’t even mention…
Okay let me start by saying that it’s probably do-able if it’s what you decide to do, and really making the emotional commitment to the process is something we can’t help you with. We’re good for the nitty-gritty.
So here’s a few thoughts on the nitty-gritty of it.
First of all, your goal in post-bacc prerequisite coursework is not a 3.5, but a 4.0. While I concede that it’s a hard thing to achieve, it’s what you need to shoot for and expect of yourself. Given your weak undergrad GPA, you need to impress. Half As and half Bs is okay but it is NOT impressive, unfortunately. Hard as it is to fathom, the average med school applicant has something like a 3.5. You need to be well above average.
Second, I don’t know what your undergrad education was in but you may need to think about doing more than just the prereqs simply to show that you’ve got a kick-a$$ aptitude for science. The core prereqs that don’t change from one school to another are a year each of gen-chem, o-chem, physics and biology - plus math if you didn’t take it previously in college. Taking one course at a time would take 3-4 years; I’d certainly advocate starting out with just one class and only ratcheting up the workload as you thought you could handle it while working.
I could go on and on about the tactics and strategy of being a pre-med but those are the first two thoughts off the top of my head.
As for the money: hey, I hear ya; no need to apologize. While it’s possible that you’ll get scholarships or grants, it’s reasonable to start out thinking that you’re going to be $150K in debt from four years of med school. Following med school, you’ve got a minimum of three years of residency. Right now the average salary for a resident is a little under $40K/yr - there are some regional variations but this is a fair estimate. At the conclusion of residency you’ll get a job with a starting salary anywhere from $80K (pediatricians in my area - I’m hearing the third-year Peds residents discussing this now) to $200K or more (emergency medicine and anesthesia to name a few). To SOME extent, starting salary correlates with number of years of training - that is, we primary care folks who train for three years in residency tend to start out at lower salaries than the more specialized folks who train for longer. Again, someone can always cite an example to refute my generalizations but I’m not trying to spout off a zillion statistics, just give a general sense of the field.
As a starting family practice doc I expect to get a salary of about $120K, hope I’m right!
While in residency, your loans can be deferred. If the loans are subsidized, the government continues to pay the interest on them. If they’re not, the interest continues to accrue but the rate is currently so low that it’s not much of an issue. You have to start paying back your loans three years after you graduate from med school - which is tough for the specialists who are in residency for more than three years, but suits me (a family practice doc with a three-year residency) just fine. Again, there are some details regarding loans and payback that I won’t go into at this point.
Bottom line is that yes, medicine is still a decent-paying profession and you’re eminently employable – but that can also be said of law. So how you sort it out is really up to you and your stomach for additional debt, not to mention family disruption.
Good luck! Keep talking to us and hopefully someone will say something that helps put this dilemma into focus for you.
Mary
The one thing about law though is there are so many law students churning out. Going it will make it harder to find a decent paying job out there for a lawyer.
Thanks for replying
I thought I replied to your message yesterday so hopefully this doesn’t pop up twice…If so I apoligize…
Thanks for the general info, it seems to be in line with what I’ve found so far…
I decided to post a what if with a 3.5 rather than a 4 just to see if it really is possible rather than a pie in the sky kind of thing…Of course I’ll be aiming for straight A’s but that would be a very windy, narrow road if I ‘had’ to get an A in every class I touch, and max out the MCAT, just for a shot…If it’s possible with a 3.5 gpa and doing well on the MCAT that’s something different…So when I do get a better GPA, that’s just gravy rather than “not perfect” enough…
I’m glad to read that you are hearing salaries that are alittle more in line with what I’d been able to generalize rather than the 50k ER doc stories I’ve heard.
I am curious though how there can be docs out there complaining that they have to close up shop/stop being a doc because their insurance is too high to make a profit…
There’s one locally, a family prac, that’s decided to forgo his insurance entirely and practice without, because he says that even though he’s never personally been sued, his insurance is so high that to keep it he’d make 0 profit each a year…
Assuming he makes even 80k is it really that likely that his insurance is that high?
I’d thought I’d spread my pre-reqs over atleast 5 years for a number of reasons, including spacing them out so I don’t overwhelm myself too early…But also because my fiancee has worked at a job she hates for years now because she was the only one earning any income…I figure it’s fair that I let her lean on me for awhile…Of course that assumes I can even find a legal job but that’s a whole nother forum altogether.
I heard once that the way to figure out what you want to do with your life is to pretend you didn’t have to do anything and then see what you’d choose to do…After having gone to law school I feel confident that I made the wrong choice…I was teetering between the two, med or law, before going to ls, but decided on law for a number of reasons, almost all practical(shorter time, need an income, etc…) rather than live the dream stuff…Now that I’m through, well actually about a year into it, I kinda realized it wasn’t what was advertised…But I chose to stick it out rather than be a quitter etc…
Also by completing ls I at least have a profession that I should be able to earn a decent wage at while I earn pre-reqs and go on…Not to mention I’d read some stuff on here that a history of failure/quitting schooling and training probably wouldn’t make for a stellar app anyway…
Insert woah is me if I’d only known now what I knew when I was 22…but can’t go back can only go forward…
I am just hoping that going forward is something doable…The fear of putting everything into this basket and it turning out that I was too old, or GPAs just too low, etc…would be horrible…It’s good to read alittle that it is doable…
I read somewhere on here that one of the big differences being an older pre med is that we have other things to concern ourselves with when making decisions than just ourselves…families, houses, jobs, whatever…Something more than getting a new roomate in the dorms…
Thanks for all the help and hopefully I can find more information that will really bring things into focus, eg make the target seem that much more attainable and less something down a foggy tunnel…
Thanks
My wife’s an attorney and, at least here in Minnesota, the market is flooded and salaries for the typical attorney are FAR from what people imagine. While she loves what she’s doing (executive director and lawyer for legal aid program), her income is far from stellar. In fact, my sister working as an accountant without a college degree has a larger income than my wife who has her JD. But, as with so many of us here, she does it because of her passion.
Bottom line, at least here where we are, it seems that, much like doctors, being a lawyer ain’t what it used to be.
ya it seems that way everywhere I look…
In the meantime, you may want to consider law in a field where you could get some medical exposure. It may turn out to give you some of what you want from medicine–it might be enough in itself–and/or, give you a good bridge from one to another. One ideal place might be trying to be counsel within a hospital where there are lots of bioethics issues to chew on. Another might be to do legal advocacy for people with medical problems. Or working for a policy/thinktank/whatever else kind of organization that works on healthcare issues. There is the whole world of malpractice–but sadly that’s probably not the ideal from a medical school admissions point of view unless you only do defense!
Either way, you’ve got a bit of time to decide, so I think the most important thing to focus on is doing excellently in law school and getting a job that will make you as happy and engaged as possible.
Good luck
joe
There are probably lots of volunteer options available for lawyers too that might be good for you. For example my sister runs a law center for refugees that uses one paid lawyer and several volunteer lawyers. If you do apply to med school, doing something like this would also show your interest in helping people in need.
Thanks for the post, I’m in my last semester of law school and graduate in May so essentially there’s not much left to do but find a job.
I’ve considered looking for a healthcare related atty position but at this point I will need to take/find whatever job I can at first.
You are right on the timeframe thing though, if I’m planning on 5 years to complete pre-reqs and before applying I should have awhile…I’ve just been concerned about the whole process and whether it’s something I should reasonably be considering…
I know that at this point, my family will not be the most supportive people of the idea of med school…And to some degree I can certainly understand their concerns…
From an outside looking in I might consider myself a professional student too…it does seem selfish to graduate law school and then roll straight into preparing pre-reqs to go to medical school…
But like I’d mentioned earlier, I feel confident that I made the wrong choice 4 years ago when deciding between med or law school…But rather than bail on law school I decided to finish it out and then pursue med school…
I suppose that now looking at graduation and the expenses of the student loans I’ve already accumulated, plus now having a 1 yr old son, I’m wondering whether it’s something that I should even be considering…
at this point the estimates on 100k loan repayment is somewhere around 3-400 a month…
So putting aside any other expenses like rent/mortgage, insurances, utilities, food, etc…I’ve got a 400 bill each and every month to consider…
If I go to med school and 150k is the added debt load, then I suppose I’m looking at close to 1k a month in loan debt for the next 30 years.
Considering numbers like that I start to wonder whether it’s even viable to go to med school…
Which is why it might seem like finances are one of my big questions, cause they are…
I appreciate alot of the posts I’ve read on here about the fact that going into medicine shouldn’t be about the money, and as an older pre med it definitely shouldn’t be, but I just want to be able to say as definitively as possible, that if I incur a debt of 1k a month for 30 years, that I can cover that and support my family…
Specifically making it worth it to go live “as a student” for 7 or so more years ya know?
This is really more than you posted but figured I’d elaborate here…
If anyone has any information that could help clear up my concerns about the likelihood of not only success getting into med school as a 36 year old with 2.2 undergraduate, 3.0 law gpa and say an estimated 3.5 pre-req gpa with a good MCAT(or what kind of MCAT would be needed) but also my worries about earning enough to cover 1k a month for 30 years in addition to life expenses I would really appreciate the info…or any other info that anyone thinks is useful for that matter.
Does any of that make sense?
thanks
thanks for posting
Ya I imagine there are probably some volunteer options out there…I’m not sure how viable they are for me to look for when I’m actually looking for a paying job at this point…But maybe later on once I’m more secure in my situation I can afford to volunteer somewhere…
There’s actually some suggestion that if I can’t find work before or after I graduate that volunteer work is the way to go to build up a resume to actually be able to find work.
So certainly in that unfortunate state, I’ll probably try to aim my volunteer work to maximize it’s effect.
I would hope that volunteer work like that would be helpful as a bridge of some sort on a med school app…But at this point I’ve really got to focus on finding full time paid employment…
but thanks for the idea,