I will be applying to medical school this summer and am curious how others are choosing which schools to apply to.
Since this is my first post it is perhaps helpful if I provide some background information. To make a long story short- I was a horribly inconsistent student when younger. I did very well some semesters and horrible at other times (I have a number of F’s on my transcript). I changed majors many times, dropped out of school several times- basically I created maximum academic carnage. At 24 I joined the Air Force although I was only six credits from getting my degree. The Air Force was exactly what I needed. I gained direction and spent six enjoyable years as an X-ray technologist. While in the Air Force I discovered my interest in medicine. Unfortunately I am burdened with my previous academic indiscretions. Following my separation from the Air Force in January 2005, I enrolled in a small public university in Texas. While there I completed my long delayed degree in biology. In the process of completing my degree I completed approximately 50 semester hours of biology and chemistry courses earning all ‘A’s except for one class in which I got a ‘B’. I took the MCAT last April. Currently I am working toward my MSPH in parasitolgy at Tulane and will complete this degree in May 2008.
My stats are:
GPA- 3.25
Science GPA- 3.25
MCAT-32R (13V, 10B, 9P)
I am retaking the MCAT this May. I have been told by several Texas schools that they would like to see at least a 35 given my low GPA. Since the first MCAT was taken without any preparation I am confident I can increase my score with the necessary preparation. I know a 32 is a decent score but I do not like that 9 in the physical science section.
I am a Texas resident so I will obviously apply to all the Texas allopathic schools. I will also apply to Tulane. Beyond that, I am having difficulty deciding which schools to apply to. Are there schools that are more forgiving of past indiscretions? Are some schools traditionally non-traditional friendly? What is an appropriate number of schools to apply to?
Any advice anyone can provide would most appreciated.
Don
Hi Don,
I would like to first welcome you to OPM. I only joined about a month ago but I found a lot of support from the other OPM’ers.
Are you looking at both allopathic and osteopathic schools? While I think that how you have turned yourself around and your MCAT score is very impressive, allopathic schools are a little more narrow-minded. DO schools on the otherhand would probably look very favoritively on your scores as well as your EC activities.
I’m sure that the other OPM’ers can give some more imput, but I think that with your refocusing yourself and really proving yourself, you should have no problem.
Again welcome,
Krisss17
Welcome DON, I do not think the MCAT is the problem its the GPA, It needs to be a bit higher.
You run the danger when you have a very good MCAT, 32 is very good of getting a lower MCAT then you are doomed to take it a third time to prove the 2nd one was a fluke. The MCAT’s are good for 3 years of applying so this is what I would do, Apply widely to Both MD and DO schools, do not limit yourself to TX.
Plan on attending a Post Bac program, it’s a year and you can apply to medschools next go around while in, if you get accepted then great if not the next go around you should be ready for acceptance.
Hold off on the 2nd MCAT I think and do this and you should succeed.
Tulane I think is very competitive but the DO schools are more forgiving of GPA all around.
Good Luck
Why did you take the MCAT w/o preparation? I would not divulge this as you go about on interviews.
- efex101 Said:
I didn't plan on taking it without preparation-it just worked out that way. I had already registered for it but my semester ended up being busier than I anticipated. I was going to skip it but my advisor told me that I might as well take it since I had already registered. Honestly, I don't see how it would come up in any interviews but if it did I am not going to lie. They use your MCAT score to gauge how well you think not how many hours you study. A 32 with no prep time is better than a 30 with an entire summer of preparation.
Back to my original question- what method have others used to decide which schools to apply to? I have went through the MSAR a number of times to find the schools with the lowest GPAs but I don't think that is a good technique. Those schools seem to get nearly 7000 applicants a year. How does one stand out in such a large pool of applicants? Two schools I have thought about applying to are Drexel and USUHS. There must be other schools out there that are receptive to applicants like me.
Don
- dtrainer Said:
- efex101 Said:
I didn't plan on taking it without preparation-it just worked out that way. I had already registered for it but my semester ended up being busier than I anticipated. I was going to skip it but my advisor told me that I might as well take it since I had already registered.
Don
These people are so bad at their JOBS it's unbelievable, really you think this is good advice? Like you said you didn't think to take it without prep, you only get 3 times to take and maybe a 4th with permission, but Admission committees may ask why you retook the test after getting a good score. If you need to take it a 3rd time it can count against you, even the 2nd possibly could in some ways. Thats why I say leave it be and work on the GPA. But thats my opinion.
- whuds Said:
- dtrainer Said:
- efex101 Said:
I didn't plan on taking it without preparation-it just worked out that way. I had already registered for it but my semester ended up being busier than I anticipated. I was going to skip it but my advisor told me that I might as well take it since I had already registered.
Don
These people are so bad at their JOBS it's unbelievable, really you think this is good advice? Like you said you didn't think to take it without prep, you only get 3 times to take and maybe a 4th with permission, but Admission committees may ask why you retook the test after getting a good score. If you need to take it a 3rd time it can count against you, even the 2nd possibly could in some ways. Thats why I say leave it be and work on the GPA. But thats my opinion.
Thanks for the comments but they tend to be addressing an issue that is not really relevant to my question. The 32 wasn't some sort of fluke- I am sure I can do better the second time. If someone asks why I took the MCAT again then I can honestly say 'because I was told to'. The admissions coordinator at UTMB told me I needed a higher score (around a 35.) I am not really in a position to work on my undergrad GPA. I am fortunate to have received a vector-borne ID fellowship slot at Tulane which pays for my MSPH in parasitology. I am committed to that plus taking additional courses will not raise my GPA a significant amount. I possess so many credits that it is hard to make a dent in my GPA. I hope that schools will note the 3.93 GPA during the 54 hours I took after I got out of the Air Force.
Don
Don,
Your undergrad GPA is going to remain a 3.25 no matter if you do a post-bac, MS, PhD or even a second BS. Having said that, go through your fellowship slot at Tulane and go through your MS program. You’ll have a ‘new’ chance, so to speak, to show you are very capable of handling the rigors of medical school. Come out with a very good GPA(I’d say 3.7 and up, but if you can get a 4.0, then do it) in your MSPH and you’ll be ok. If you cannot get in anywhere after your grad studies, then it may be worth retaking the MCAT. Make good connections while doing your studies/fellowship at Tulane. Go see what’s going on in the med school from time to time, talk to admissions people, see if you can go to one of the nearby hospitals for a shadowing or two from time to time.
Good luck 
- dtrainer Said:
- whuds Said:
- dtrainer Said:
- efex101 Said:
I didn't plan on taking it without preparation-it just worked out that way. I had already registered for it but my semester ended up being busier than I anticipated. I was going to skip it but my advisor told me that I might as well take it since I had already registered.
Don
These people are so bad at their JOBS it's unbelievable, really you think this is good advice? Like you said you didn't think to take it without prep, you only get 3 times to take and maybe a 4th with permission, but Admission committees may ask why you retook the test after getting a good score. If you need to take it a 3rd time it can count against you, even the 2nd possibly could in some ways. Thats why I say leave it be and work on the GPA. But thats my opinion.
Thanks for the comments but they tend to be addressing an issue that is not really relevant to my question. The 32 wasn't some sort of fluke- I am sure I can do better the second time. If someone asks why I took the MCAT again then I can honestly say 'because I was told to'. The admissions coordinator at UTMB told me I needed a higher score (around a 35.) I am not really in a position to work on my undergrad GPA. I am fortunate to have received a vector-borne ID fellowship slot at Tulane which pays for my MSPH in parasitology. I am committed to that plus taking additional courses will not raise my GPA a significant amount. I possess so many credits that it is hard to make a dent in my GPA. I hope that schools will note the 3.93 GPA during the 54 hours I took after I got out of the Air Force.
Don
DON I did address your post, I have posted twice, the GPA IS THE PROBLEM. But all you are worried about is the MCAT, sure I made a comment about advisors not off topic since thats your excuse for taking the MCAT without prep. Truth is the 32 is ok and does not need that much attention the 3.25 GPA is the problem and may keep you from being accepted since the average is 3.6 and 3.7 now.
Yes they will noticed how well you did, and you did well but understand they look at thousands of apps and when there are enough that apply with 3.6 GPA's they usually take those first for the positions. Just the way it works most times and being accepted for one course of study at a school does not mean that you will get into medical school there, in fact some schools do not take that many that study at that college as an internal rule, Johns Hopkins does this for instance.
Also these people at the schools are not saying if you have a MCAT of 35 you are in, what they are saying is if you want a chance of acceptance then a 35 is what they want to see with the 3.25. Really you should have gone into a POST BAC for getting into Medschool, these exist for that purpose, people who have that GPA with just a little lower and need something to boost the app without retaking classes.
You are doing something else I see, get a good GPA and that should stand out, Just remember they still look at undergrad GPA closely I would not just apply to the competitive schools because to them you are not that competitive I would just focus on getting in somewhere and apply broadly this means you may have to move to go to medschool.
Good luck.
I brought up that point (and sorry to go OFF the main topic of your question) because IF you retake the adcoms will more than likely ASK WHY. Taking the MCAT w/o preparation in THEIR eyes is not prudent regardless of what someone told you. The expectations for non-trads are a little different in that they expect us to know about the process and what certain elements entail. Your MCAT is NOT the problem as others have stated it is your GPA and that is what you need to focus on.
Your original question is where to apply to. I would say apply broadly. There is a program on studentdoc.com which you plug in your GPA and MCAT scores and it will tell you if you are very competitive, competitive, and less competitive. Just looking at Texas you are “very competitive” at Texas Tech and San Antonio. “Competitive” at A&M, Galveston, and Houston. Finally you are “less competitive” at Baylor and Southwestern.
That being said. The easy way out is your MCAT. However you are not factoring what happens if you score lower than 32. Stop and think about that for a second. With no disrespect put your ego aside and really think about how it will look if you score lower.
There’s a term in surgery which says “the enemy of good is better” You have a good MCAT but you think it can be better. In reality you have a great MCAT. Your grades are the problem. However fixing your grades will require work and retaking the MCAT doesn’t.
Be careful taking what may seem the easy way out.
Maybe Judy will comment and give you an opinion?
She is very Knowledgeable and experienced one of the few Advisors I listen to! She’s great!
Everyone,
Thanks for the comments. In retrospect I wish that I had not placed my stats in my original post. I am well aware of my substandard GPA and wish there was something I could do to raise it substantially. However, there is not. Nor am I in the position to apply to a program like Georgetown’s SMP. I have thought long and hard about retaking the MCAT and know there is a risk of getting a lower score. To gauge the validity of my score I took two AAMC practice MCATs and received an estimated 32 and 33. I am confident (not egotistical) that I can increase my score with solid study. Will I get a 40? Unlikely. Is a 36 possible? Sure. So in summary- I know my short comings and wish there was a way I could remedy them but at this time there isn’t.
Now, what I have gleaned from the previous responses is to:
- Apply to M.D. and D.O. schools
- Apply broadly
In regard to the second point, how many schools should I apply to outside of Texas? 10? 20? What have others done? I put my numbers into the studentdoc.com website and identified a few schools. Honestly, the process seems so arbitrary. I wonder if I should put a list of school names on the wall and throw darts at it to identify the ones I will apply to.
I apologize if I seemed egotistical or as if I were ignoring people’s advice. That was not my intention. I have a mental tape on continuous playback that says “your GPA sucks.” I have been hearing it for four years. If I think about it too much I become despondant. I have tried to put those negative thoughts behind me and move forward with what I can easily change. I have been fortunate to meet a number of Tulane med students with 3.2s, even 3.0s in their undergrad courses. The common thread amongst them was that they all had MCATs of 34 or better. Nevertheless, I realize some people disagree with this approach and I respect that.
Thanks again,
Don
The process is not arbitrary at all IMHO. Now what is arbitrary is which school you will get accepted into. First of all you need to stop listening to just ONE admission person and get the input from more. You need to apply to MANY schools. What does this mean? apply to as many as you can possibly afford and to schools that if they were the only ones to accept you, you would go. I applied to 30 and had a very high GPA with an okay MCAT. I applied looking for scholarships and to get a sense of what was out there and to maximize my chances. I did this knowing that I would NOT go to all interviews IF enough schools invited me. I received secondaries from all (but this is no surprise for most do not screen) and was given ample interviews. Here are some ideas why I got so many…first of all my AMCAS was in on the first day (the early bird gets the worm) and secondaries were returned within 48 hours. I had interviews as early as August. This is huge! applying early is often one of the major factors in folks with soso numbers getting interviews. So again apply to as many as you can, before you apply contact the schools see what THEY say about your situation and go from there. Just because one person said you need a 35 does not mean that holds true for all. I know for a fact that a 30 will put you in a nice place and if you have recent excellent grades which it seems you have…you may be pleasnatly surprised.
Many folks that do not get in make a couple of mistakes:
*applying late (big bad mistake)
*not applying to enough schools
*applying to only top schools
*not having enough EC’s
*no healthcare experience
*making assumptions that non-trad status gives a leg up
*not realizing just how competitive this process is
I write all this so maybe you can glean some info that may help. Take it for what you will.
I would say 10 or so outside Texas. Choose schools that do not give a HUGE advantage to in-state students. MCW might be okay for you, especially if you write to Michael Istwan and ask how you should present your recent grades so that they best offset your older grades.
Also, I’ve heard Judy Colwell recommend you write to schools to ask for a second look if you are rejected out of hand. I think that with the disconnect between your older and recent grades you’re exactly the sort of person who should do that. If you do get rejected, just ask them to take a look at that difference between your older and newer grades (without making any sorry old excuses for your old grades, but I’m sure you know that) and see if you get another chance.
Yes, your old grades suck. But your new ones are shiny, so it’s not impossible you can get a fair shake.
I think if you’re getting those practice scores with no study, you CAN bring your MCAT up two or three points, assuming the questions you’ve gotten wrong are related to formulae or basic facts you have forgotten (be sure you go over your practice exams and verify this before you go further with studying). Good recent AMCAS practice exams taken closer to the exam date can give you a good idea of how much you will improve so you can decide whether to cancel or go ahead and take the shot. Be sure to save a nice tough one like exam 7 or 8 for this purpose.
I don’t think you’re trying to avoid hard work here. Be aware lots of us do disagree with each other about the best course and we’ll sometimes state things strongly to you when we’re really disagreeing with the person who posted before us. I’ve done it myself. I do agree with the advice to get more advice from admissions officers if you can.
You have lots of choices here and I think there is plenty of hope for you.
Ok- I’m going to chime in. First, I have a question. When you talked to people at the schools, did you just tell them your GPA and MCAT, or did you also mention your great GPA in your last 50+ hours? I ask because, as you realize, you’re not going to be able to do much to raise your GPA.
My experience has been that most medical schools will look at your entire application and notice that you have done very well in your most recent coursework. I had an undergrad GPA of 2.78, and even with all A’s in my pre-reqs, I only raised my overall undergrad GPA to a 3.19. My MCAT was a 31 (11VR, 10PS, 10BS). I was accepted to all five schools I applied to, including two that are considered fairly competitive. (UCinci and Ohio State).
So, to my point . . . if I were you, I would go ahead and apply without retaking, unless you are absolutely convinced you can do much better. Even though you may stand to improve your PS and BS sections (which are both above average), you risk getting a lower VR (a 13 is outstanding). I think that your current MCAT and recent grades are enough to get you an interview, assuming that the rest of your application looks good (ECs, clinical/research experience, that kind of thing). In an interview, they will ask you about your original poor grades and give you a chance to explain yourself (sometimes this opportunity is on the secondary applications). They MAY ask you about your MCAT prep - I was asked about mine at a couple of interviews and I was honest. I also did pretty much zero prep - I finished organic chem Monday and took the MCAT on Saturday. To be truthful, the interviewers who both said that they were impressed that I had the score I did without much prep. If you had a mediocre to poor MCAT, I would agree that adcoms would not be impressed that you did zero prep. Since you have an MCAT that is at or above average at many schools, I tend to think that they will either be impressed that you did so well with so little prep or not really care. (Again, this is my opinion only).
I think if you apply broadly, you stand a decent chance. If it were me, I would go ahead an apply. If you don’t have any interviews and/or acceptances by say February, then you might want to go ahead and retake the MCAT and reapply the next year. If you have no problem with attending DO schools, go ahead and apply to DO schools as well as MD schools. However, if you truly have no interest in attending a DO school and would sit there debating whether or not to take your only DO acceptance vs reapplying, then don’t waste your time or money. (Note, this is NOT anti-DO, I’m just tired or listening to people debate whether or not they should go to a DO school or reapply and attempt to get into a MD school).
Good luck with your current studies and good luck with your applications.
I was not trying to discourage you at all and I think if you apply broadly then you have a good chance, just I would not apply only to competitive schools, Like Emergency said they did get accepted to a Competitive school with lower stats.
Your undergrad of 3.25 does not suck it’s just that it is just below the low end of most accepted. You can still get accepted into some programs especially with the 32 MCAT. That is really good and this is something I and others keep telling you.
Just realize we are trying to tell you our opinions and that is what you asked for. I personally think your not in bad shape at all.
Good luck.
Thanks again for the comments. Now I need to figure out which schools are less competitive. If you don’t mind I would like to post a list of schools that I am considering in order to get your feedback. Perhaps something that looks less competitive in the MSAR is actually really competitive and some school I had dismissed is actually less competitive.
You guys (and gals) are great! Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
Don
Just remember that when you look at the numbers in the MSAR (or elsewhere) that those numbers are AVERAGES. The numbers in and of themselves do not necessarily determine the competitiveness of a school. Just because your numbers are below average for a school doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t apply there.
Some schools DO have “cut-off” numbers, MCAT scores and GPA’s below which they rarely interview people, but most don’t. For some schools, it might be worth your while to call and find out if they have such cut-offs. The downside is that most of them don’t have any formal policy and whether or not they will tell you what the unofficial cut-off is may depend on who you talk to.
In addition to what was mentioned above (like not applying to schools who are very heavily biased against out of state students), also spend some time thinking about whether or not you would be happy living in a particular area. If you hate, hate, hate cold weather, then maybe you don’t want to apply to schools that have pretty brutal winters.
I am obviously going to have start calling and/or emailing schools to find out more about their selection process.
Here is my rough (extremely rough) draft of schools (not including TX schools). Are there any obvious ones that are missing that I should consider?
Loma Linda (CA)
George Washington (DC)
Georgetown (D.C.)
Rosalind Franklin (IL)
Stritch SOM – Loyola (IL)
University of Kansas –I have significant Kansas ties
Tulane (LA)
USUHS (MD)
Creighton (NE)
UMDNJ-Newark (NJ)
Albany Medical College (NY)
New York Medical College (NY)
Medical University of Ohio (OH)
University of Cincinnati (OH)
Drexel (PA)
Jefferson Medical College (PA)
University of Utah (UT)
Eastern Virginia Medical School (VA)
Medical College of Wisconsin (WI)
As for choosing a school based on its location- I subscribe to Richard Burton’s motto: Omne solum forti patria- every place is a strong man’s home. I can be happy anywhere as long as I am getting the education I desire. Granted, I have my preferences but someone like me can’t afford to be picky.