My stats: Hi all, I'm a 30 yr old woman, single, no kids. Currently started to look into post bacc pre-med programs.My dilemma:
There's a possibility that I will get accepted into Law school-I will know next month.However, I've been considering the field of medicine instead. I feel that unlike law, it would allow me to help people on a global level, whereas law would be restrictive. I do realize the difficulty of med school, residency, etc. and am ready to face the challenge when the time comes. From my research and talking to other law students, law school doesn't seem like it would have a return on investment as compared to medicine, financially. For example, Law school is just as expensive as medical school from the info I've read, yet lawyers on average only earn 60-70K. Even worse, the legal marketplace is oversaturated. The competetion to get a job is fierce, unless you go to Ivy League. 60-70K is not bad, but given the amount of debt I already have from undergrad, that's not much really. From what I understand, doctors earn significantly more. I know it seems bad to be focused on the monetary aspects, but it is important to me to have financial security, especially after such an expenditure. I'm just trying to be practical. As far as knowing if I'd fit in with medicine, I'm pretty sure I would. I've worked with terminally ill people before, I enjoy science, and I am intent on eventually helping patients in underserved areas, especially in the third world (where I am from, by the way, so it's dear to my heart). Any thoughts, anyone? Thanks in advance.
I would focus on what you would enjoy the most.
I would give some thought to what “tier” the law school is in. You are right that a low-ranked law school may yield a low paying job. However, as far as I can tell, medical school is not a the best path to money. It is a great path to stable earnings, but not to wealth. The reason is you run up very large debt (significantly more than law school if you are comparing private institutions to private institutions) and then you have a long residency period where you are just treading water financially. If money is a critical issue for you, go into investment banking or become a mortgage broker - - don’t go to law or medical school! Honestly.
I am attorney who has considered health care transition for alot of reasons - - but not for the money. If you go to a good law school and do well, you will have very strong earning potential. The reason the average numbers for lawyers are so low, I think, is that many lawyers choose to work in non-profit or state government jobs, which are VERY low-paying and because there are people who go to very bottom tier law schools that don’t have a lot of options, end up working outside of law, etc. The private sector has very different pay scales. The partners at my large law firm make on average 1.3-2 million dollars per year. Associates at my level make 170-220k. This is a very high-grossing practice but I also know attorneys in much smaller practices that clear a million dollars a year. If legal practice is your passion and you go to a good school, I don’t think money will be an issue.
Think about what you would enjoy the most. I have personally seen quite a few wealthy people, doctors (in a few select specialties) and lawyers (in their own practices or large firm practice) who are MISERABLE. Both of these professions have significant dissatisfaction rates, though I think law is higher because, at least at present, the hours are worse.
Hope this helps and good luck!
Thanks for replying! To clarify a bit, I am not looking to become “wealthy” as in 200K,
just “very comfortable” even with large debt. If you don’t mind sharing, may I ask why you are considering moving from law to medicine? What pros and cons do YOU see? Thanks.
Going into medicine for the money is for suckers. Reimbursement patterns will change, and so will health care generally. I'm sick of doctors complaining about all the money they're not making and I'm not interested in adding you to the list.
It doesn't sound like you're called to medicine quite yet, but it does sound like you're having some doubts about law. I think you need to reassess your goals; you want to be happy and fulfilled but you're prioritizing money. You've got to choose one or the other and then hope the other one follows. I personally would recommend choosing happiness; you'll do OK financially and you'll keep your sanity. If you're from the Third World you'll recognize that any of these professions will allow you to make much more than 99% of the world.
So, spend some more time thinking about what would make you happy; shadow some doctors; get real in-depth exposure to the kind of healthcare you imagine yourself doing. See if it fits. But put the question of money aside while you figure it out.
On the other hand, if you feel like finances need to come before choosing fulfillment, then don't choose medicine, because the amount of money you'll make is essentially in the control of healthcare policy, not in yours, at least within rough orders of magnitude. You won't be poor but you might lose perspective on that if you're like many doctors of the past who did get into this for the money.
joe
No, I don’t mind sharing at all but I hope I don’t discourage you because I decided not to pursue either! Basically, what I didn’t like about law practice is the long hours, stress, and relatively repetitive or uninteresting work. I also like to interact and work with people more. I talked to alot of doctors and lo and behold the ones who were unhappy didn’t like the long hours, stress, and relatively repetitive or uninteresting work. The unhappy ones also noted that medicine was interesting to learn about but after your zillionth hypertension treatment or endoscopic procedure it got boring. The ones who stayed engaged seemed to 1) love people so much that each person was fascinating and rewarding even if each medical encounter was not; and/or 2) work in academic practice.
So, for me (and this is a very personal decision so please don’t let me influence you), I realized that friends, family, lifestyle, and interesting work were my top priorities. While school and work have come pretty easily to me, what gives me real pleasure is having time for walks, exercise, long lunches with friends, taking an art class, etc. while having an interesting job that pays pretty well, gives me alot of intellectual automony, etc. Anyway, I decided to pursue law teaching (as a prof.) which offers an unbeatable lifestyle, much free time in the summer, a flexible 4 or even 3 day week, interaction with students and a chance to research interesting issues - - plus a salary that rivals at least primary care docs at about 50% of the time commitment. I am going on the teaching market next year - - the down side is that jobs are tough to get and you need to be willing to move.
If I can generalize, I think that legal practice can be particularly tough because of the large amount of lawyers, dealing with conflict all the time as your job, and you are frequently sorting through tedious stuff that no one else wants to deal with (hence, the high pay!). Though I have some friends that absolutely love law - - it really is about personal fit. I think medicine is hard - - I have some background here as my husband is an internal medicine resident - - because the training basically consumes a decade of your life if not more, the lifestyle is frequently pretty lousy, physicians just don’t have the same amount of respect/compensation as they did in the past so people are often disappointed by their (extremely high) expectations, and there is a huge opportunity cost (i.e., you want to be darn sure its a passion before spending ten years of your life in what is frequently unpleasant stuff - - tests based on mass memorization, call, residency, etc.).
Also, I know your goal is to be “very” comfortable and I certainly empathize but with medicine you do need to adjust your time frame for that. You will be comfortable (I don’t know about very, depends what you go into) but it may not be until your mid-forties (let’s say you start med school at 33, start residency at 37, finish residence between 40 and 43). If you go to a private medical school you will have around 200k in loans, if you go to a public school around 100k. You are talking about paying about 1000-2500 per month in med school loans alone depending on the interest rate and the amount of your debt. People really underestimate the hole that puts in your income - - and if you have a family you will no sooner stop paying off your loans than you start paying your kids’ college. My husband and I have met alot of unhappy residents and young doctors who don’t have the lifestyle they envisioned because they were in training while their friends were saving, buying homes, etc. If you want to be a doctor, go for it - - but accept that financial security won’t happen for about 10-15 years and if the compensation is an issue for you, consider specialty and location carefully.
Anyway, what I realized for myself, and I see it in many people that debate law versus medicine, is that I have a strong drive for prestige and good income. It took alot of soul-searching for me to realize that the prestige and the money were not making me happy! Further, there were so many lemmings like me throwing themselves at law and medicine that the lifestyle and/or compensation in these jobs were much less due to the competitition - - my truly wealthy friends are self-employed business owners who found a very specialized niche.
If I were you, I would talk to as many lawyers and doctors as you can and I would job shadow as much as you can. Also, I would try to learn about different careers - - when you don’t have alot of professional role models you tend to immediately think lawyer, doctor, or banker without exploring all the other really cool jobs out there.
Good luck!
I am also a dissatisfied lawyer. I found this more mostly because I was “just curious” to find out what older med strudents are like. Right now, it would be financially impossible for me to attend medical school, but if I had the opportunity, I would go for it no questions asked. That’s partly because throughout high school, all I was interested in was medicine. Then I took chemistry. By the time I reached college, I new I wasn’t going to make it through all the chem classes, but I never really thought about doing anything other than medicine, so I was lost. I decided to go to law school almost “by default” - I wasn’t going to be a doctor, so what’s next on the list.
Unless you can get a job at a big firm, and want to put in the hours, law is not lucrative. Strange thing, I always heard good things about the “friendliness” of small firms, but even that depends. I worked for an attorney and it was just me, him, and some paralegals, and the pressure to bill hours was the same. Besides, this guy was nuts - before he hired me, he had gone through 3 associates in 2 years. I managed to stick around for 3 before calling it quits from the formal practice of law. I now work for a legal publisher. I enjoy this job because I get to read different and interesting cases and no longer need to deal with the personal conflict that was law practice. But the pay is terrible. And let me emphasize the personal conflict aspect of law. If you like being in the middle of a dispute, you will thrive. But remember - once people get into court, the conflict has really escalated and they no longer think reasonably. I’ve proposed what I thought were good settlements that were rejected because my client just wanted to "get even."
The other posts are right - if money is your motivation, go into sales. Seriously. Look into becoming a real estate broker.
Personally, I think going into medicine would bring in a better salary than law, but you need to love what you do.
Finally, look into becoming a PA. I would say that the salaries of PAs are roughly comparable to what associates make at small to medium-sized firms.
Correction
I should have stated that I found this site, and I participate in it, more from …etc.
SMS has made some excellent points.
One final note - I mentioned the possibility of becoming a PA. On the law end, don’t foreclose the possibility of becoming a paralegal. It’s true that some attorneys look down on paralegals, which I always found to be very stupid. (I always treated my paralegals with respect, BTW.) I think that comes from insecurity. Law is presented as this very challenging, intellectually stimulating profession. Well, it ain’t, and it ain’t rocket science either. Again, it depends on what you do. A multinational securities transaction is probably pretty cool. Patent law is really cool, but you need a science background; it’s not optional. I personally like tax law because I’m wierd that way, but again, to get a job most firms want to see a CPA, an LLM, or BOTH. If you do the “bread and butter” work - divorce, criminal, bankruptcy, personal injury - there are plenty of these types of cases to go around. But these are high conflict, stressful areas, without much intellectual satisfaction. I once talked to a bakruptcy attorney who said that he could take an intelligent high school graduate with no college (let alone law school) and train that person to do what he did. Perhaps that was an exaggeration, but it was not too far off. In my opinion, you could get rid of that last year of law school and turn the entire thing into a 2-year masters program and still have competent practitioners. I would even say that you could create a bachelors degree in “law” that would prepare students to practice law. Accountants, engineers, and nurses all practice in their field after completing a bachelors. I don’t think that law is any more difficult than these fields that I mentioned.
But I digress. Becoming a paralegal will get you started making money and will let you see what law practice is like. If it’s not for you, you can take pre-med classes while working as a paralegal, and the legal knowledge, IMO, will be of great benefit to you as a physician. The medical community is starting to see that a doctor with a legal background is valuable. There are several schools that currently offer a dual MD/JD degree, which I think is totally unnecessary.
I think I'm like sms92-- well, except for the fact that I'm a 2L in law school right now. I always wanted to go to med school, but in college I started having problems with Chem, decided it would probably wreck my gpa if I kept at it, and so decided law school would be a good default. Now, I got to a top 10 law school, will be over $100K in debt at graduation-- and still have dreams about being a doctor. I am wondering whether I should cut my losses now, or simply stay the law school course. What to do?
I guess my advice is to follow your passion-- and not worry about the money. I wish I would have realized this sooner-- I'm trying to figure out what to do now. Also, the suggestion of shadowing doctors and lawyers is an excellent one. I really enjoy being in school, but my summer internship has made me realize that the last thing I want to do for the rest of my life is sit behind a desk, reading paperwork all day. It's extremely isolated and I love interacting with people.
Hope everything works out for you.
I’ll echo what others have said: it’s got to be your passion. Med school is hard and the relationship casualty incidence through med school and residency is nothing to be slighted.
Most med schools nowadays look for folks who have had some experience with healthcare, whether through a lower-level medical occupation (phlebotomists; nurse’s aides, etc) or through volunteer work.
I have a niece-in-law who was talking about going to med school and then discovered that she couldn’t stand the sight of blood! Good thing she discovered that early!
Follow your passion. If you don’t do that, then you’ll end up like me, at 53, still dreaming about medical school. (And believe me, these days, it’s almost as short a period to go to medical school as it is to go to PA school: many require you to have a couple of years of health care (“direct patient contact”).
When you add that up: it’s maybe 2 years to get into an occupation in which you have direct patient contact (you are responsible for the well-being of a patient)-another 1-2 years practicing; and then another 2 years or so to go through PA school. Of course, you will have been out there making money for a couple of years.
By the way, someone said something about nurses having bachelor’s degrees before practicing nursing. Actually, most RNs graduate from a 2-year community college RN program. However, they usually have spent another year or so fulfilling the prerequisites to get into the RN school.
ciao,
heart
| QUOTE (claudette737 @ Jun 17 2003, 10:17 AM) |
| My stats: Hi all, I'm a 30 yr old woman, single, no kids. Currently started to look into post bacc pre-med programs.My dilemma: There's a possibility that I will get accepted into Law school-I will know next month.However, I've been considering the field of medicine instead. I feel that unlike law, it would allow me to help people on a global level, whereas law would be restrictive. I do realize the difficulty of med school, residency, etc. and am ready to face the challenge when the time comes. From my research and talking to other law students, law school doesn't seem like it would have a return on investment as compared to medicine, financially. For example, Law school is just as expensive as medical school from the info I've read, yet lawyers on average only earn 60-70K. Even worse, the legal marketplace is oversaturated. The competetion to get a job is fierce, unless you go to Ivy League. 60-70K is not bad, but given the amount of debt I already have from undergrad, that's not much really. From what I understand, doctors earn significantly more. I know it seems bad to be focused on the monetary aspects, but it is important to me to have financial security, especially after such an expenditure. I'm just trying to be practical. As far as knowing if I'd fit in with medicine, I'm pretty sure I would. I've worked with terminally ill people before, I enjoy science, and I am intent on eventually helping patients in underserved areas, especially in the third world (where I am from, by the way, so it's dear to my heart). Any thoughts, anyone? Thanks in advance. |
If you're looking at the two fields as far as earning potential, graduating from the right law school will allow you to far exceed your earning potential as a physician, by several orders of magnitude. It's also a much shorter course of study (3 yrs with no residency vs. at least 6 years (2 years as a resident)).
Claudette,
I will not go attempt to compare law v. medicine. This is my story: I am a 30yr old graduate of a top 25 law school. Years ago I faced the same dilemma. I chose law because as a young man I thought I could not do the work required to gain admission to medical school. (I was wrong) Law was my second choice. Four years have passed since my law school graduation. In that time, I have done more interesting work than most lawyers will see in a lifetime. Ie…U.S. Supreme Court litigation and clerkships with federal and state judges. I have opened the doors to heaven and shared time with the nine gods of law.
Nevertheless, I too have found this board and my way back to the pursuit of healing as my life's work.
Money is important. You are absolutely right to be concerned about security and the ability to provide for a family. It is intelligent to consider potential compensation in making this decision.
That said, all the money in the world would not make me love practicing law. You can make millions as a lawyer. You can make millions as a doctor (several of my uncles have done it). You can make millions robbing a bank. You can make millions as a savvy businessperson with a 4th grade education. (This person happens to be a friend of mine.)
The point-don't take the easy way out. I did and I regret it. Go with what you love or think you will love. Many people in this world live happily on much less than $70,000.00 per year. Some are not happy with millions.
You are writing the story of your life. Make it your own.
Bill
Dear felicity,
I am sorry to hear that you find yourself in this position. Make the best of it. Finish law school and then start taking your prereqs for med school. Try to get into a state som. Your debt will be manageable. The JD will only add to your value as a doc or academic.
I wish you the best!
Keep us posted!
Bill
Hi there,
One of my colleagues is an MD/JD having received both degrees at the same time from the University of Illinois. She is currently on leave from surgical residency to work in the office of a US senator as a legislative assistant. My cousin is also an MD/JD and practices both pediatric neurosurgery and health care policy law. She loves both. Why not look into the possiblity of doing both at the same time? University of Illinois has this program as does GW.
Natalie
| QUOTE |
| If you're looking at the two fields as far as earning potential, graduating from the right law school will allow you to far exceed your earning potential as a physician, by several orders of magnitude. It's also a much shorter course of study (3 yrs with no residency vs. at least 6 years (2 years as a resident)). |
From a total earning POTENTIAL viewpoint, this is right but its also true for business. Going into business is the absolute most lucrative POTENTIAL there is. However, there is also a high chance of failure also.
According to the Labor Dept, the average lawyer hourly income is $38.77 while the average doctor income is over $60 per hour.
Now if you are comparing the top 10% of all lawyers vs all doctors, then its a different story. Lawyers have more outliers on the upper income scale than doctors do.
I know some lawyers who cant get a legal position that pays well, and have to do other things for a living. These people didnt go to Harvard or Yale Law so their potential income is vastly lower and they may even face the spectre of unemployment. Medicine on the other hand, is basically a guaranteed job. You wont be beating out the top lawyers, but you will definitely be better off on average than most lawyers.
I think MD/PhD slave is right on - law has a lot of outliers. The top lawyers in the country make millions, but they are few and far between. On the whole, a “run-of-the-mill” doctor will probably make more than your “run-of-the-mill” lawyer.
Felicity - Since you are already a 2L, you might as well finish law school. It’s only another year, you’ll get that degree under your belt, and can even earn some money before going to med school.
Thanks for the supportive posts. This site is GREAT!
I think I will stick it out until the end of law school- it can't hurt, really (unless you count the years of my life ticking away!)