Hi! First of all I wanted to introduce myself and say I am SOOOOO glad I found this forum. I have always wanted to be a doctor since the time I was about 6 but I had a lot going on in college and graduated with a 2.7 GPA from Harvard with only half my pre-reqs done and figured there was no hope of getting into medical school. I took a job in finance, hated it, returned and did my post-bac back at Harvard and came away with a decent 3.6-3.7 GPA but still fearing that schools would never forget my undergrad gave up before taking the MCAT. Fast forward three years later and I am pretty satisfied with my life except my career - I need to at least try, really try to get in before I settle on something else. So that leads me to forging my game plan . . .
So far the plan goes as follows:
MCAT this year
Leave current job in January post-bonus, get a job closer to medical field
Take biochem to boost coursework
Apply in 2009 for 2010 (I’ll be 30 in 2010)
Get in yay, don’t get in try again one more year
So my questions are:
(1) Would pursuing a MS or MPH next year help my chances?
(2) I have no letters of rec from undergrad or the post-bac - how the heck do I get some academic references??
(3) Will letters of rec from work people count?
(4) How competitive are NY state schools?
(5) Alternative plan - DO versus Caribbean??
My school has awesome advisors but they pop out mostly straight shooters. I’m not sure how many people struggled in college and are trying to turn it around.
Any help would be SO appreciated!
Hi MichCap79
First of all, welcome to the forums. There is a lot of information and well-meaning folks.
I am not that well-qualified to give advice but I can tell you my experience. I graduated with a degree in English and taught for 20 years and just got my first acceptance for next fall to my first-choice DO school and I have another interview next week at a school that I am really interested in also.
1.Doing more post-bacc pre-reqs can be done outside of a formal program but should be done at a four-year school.
2.Get LOR’s from your professors in your next series of courses.
3.I thank that I used a work LOR for one of my applications that needed a lot of letters.
4.I know nothing about competitiveness of NY schools - so a search here and find out the answer will probably be “it depends” (your scores/grades/school’s location etc.
5.There is a lot of info that you can search for here about the DO vs. Caribbean route. In general the answer is a US degree makes it easier to match into a residency however there are always a few that match well. There are more details you will find in those threads.
I did all of this without pre-med advising (although it was available at my school) and researched everything on my own. That worked for me but there are many on this site who have been pleased to use a consultant like Judith Colwell (her ad is here and she posts sometimes) No affiliation.
Best of Luck!
- MichCap79 Said:
(1) Would pursuing a MS or MPH next year help my chances?
I am not qualified to answer that question. I would say it could help but how much, I am not sure. Have you calculated your BCPM and non-BCPM GPA? That might give you better insight.
- In reply to:
I am sure you have some recommendations but not ones tailored for medical school admissions. Don't be afraid to go back to those professors that gave you recommendations and ask if they would write another one for medical school. The worse they can say is no. If that is the case you still have other options. You can talk to your post-bac professors and maybe they might be willing to write you a recommendation. Also, if you did a formal post-bac at Harvard, I think they will be willing to write you a committee letter since you did so well there.
- In reply to:
Yes. Its better to get it from your boss than a coworker though.
- In reply to:
You can visit the school websites and check that information out for yourself. It will tell you how many applied and how many were actually accepted. Whatever the case is - all medical schools are competitive especially now since applications are on the rise. They are difficult to get into but certainly not impossible (so many people here are living proof of that).
- In reply to:
I am not sure I would be comparing the two. First question you have to ask yourself is do you want to be an MD or a DO. If you want to be an MD, the Caribbean should be your only 'alternative' plan. If you want to be a DO, then you have no alternative plan - your primary plan is to be a DO so only apply to DO schools. I apoligize if I am reading too much into what you wrote but it sounds like you are just looking to get in anywhere. I understand but I do not think that is wise. Whatever school you go to will shape the type of doctor that you will be. The philosophies of osteopathic medicine and allopathic medicine are different. Unless you embrace both with an equal amount of zest, you shouldn't have both as a backup. Its one or the other in my opinion.
- In reply to:
Post-bacs are always in the minority but most schools will help you nevertheless.
I think you have a good plan. Take the MCATs, biochem courses, and get more real-life exposure to the world of medicine. In a year, reevaluate where you are (and don't be afraid to ask your school counselor for advice either) and if you are comfortable with what you have done - apply. You seem like a smart person and I am sure between yourself and advisors you will know if you are in the position to apply immediately for medical school or maybe do more course work in the forms of a masters degree.
- the dude Said:
Actually I have to disagree with this. Many people on here are applying to both MD and DO. And since DOs end up in the same specialties as MDs, you really can look at the educations as two slightly different means to the same end.
Don't get too hung up on that "DO philosophy" stuff. It's really pretty much the exact same education (of course with the addition of OMM). You'll see stuff flung around about "holistic" this and "philosophy" that, but it's more PR than a real distinction. I got holistic stuff in my allopathic school, too. What you *bring* to your medical education in terms of a philosophy of serving others is going to be far more important than whether you do DO or MD.
Mary
I still don’t buy either being a backup school, especially DO schools. Even using your argument that there is little difference between DO and MD schools, DO schools should not be treated as a backup. Its not a given anymore that its easier to get into a DO school than it is an MD school. It really all depends on which school you want to attend. You can’t just look at the program anymore and make general assumptions. Again, this is just my opinion.
I would have to agree with Mary.
While I specifically wanted to be a DO because I absolutely love osteopathic manipulation, I applied to both schools. Had I been accepted into an MD program and not a DO, I would not have hesitated to go. OMM can be studied post graduation from medical school whether you are an MD or a DO.
As to the philosophy, I have known good DOs and MDs that are very compassionate and others that are not. I don’t really think that has to do with the philosophy so much as the person.
For me, the important part was becoming a physician.
Mary & Linda are on the money - the overwhelming majority of the holistic-ness & “treating people not just diseases” is advertising hype…not to mention, I feel, a underhanded slight to my MD colleagues. You will far more variation in philosophic approach to medicine & pt-centered b/t individual schools than you will b/t DO vs MD programs. I went to the founding DO school & did my 3rd & 4th years alongside a group from Mich St’s MD program - their program was an order of magnitude more touchy-feely than mine was!
On the same note, you cannot take someone who is an ass, put him/her thru a DO program & expect Mother Theresa to come out. Nor could you expect Albert Schweitzer to morph into Adolf Hitler merely from going through an MD program. All of that crap is way overblown!!!
The kind of physician YOU will become is rooted in the kind of person that YOU are now.
The training in MD & DO programs is equivalent, not necessarily identical, but equivalent. Legally, they indistinguishable degrees that yield the same thing - the opportunity to train as a physician.
Oh, by the way, graduating from medical school does NOT make you a physician - finishing a residency &/0r fellowship does that. All completing med school does is grant you a doctral-level degree that allows you to apply for post-grad training in the healing-art of western medicine. Without the last piece, you cannot & should not practice medicine. There are a ton of things you can do with the degree, but working as a physician is NOT one of them.
Another point, most all of us have trained with, are training with or will train with both MDs & DOs. I challenge any of you to be able to divvy up the MDs & DOs simply by the way they practice medicine…if you think you can, you just have not been there yet.
Earning your stripes in medical practice requires so much more than a fancy diploma from a big-name school or which pair of letters live at the end of your illegible signature. You earn the respect of your teachers, allied health staff, colleagues & patients by doing the best that you can with the info that you have all the time, every time & by treating them, all of them, just as you would want to be treated if you were in their position. Believe me, this is not easy & may actually be the hardest part of all of your medical education & training.
So, if your heart’s desire is to become an MD - then only apply to MD programs. If your heart’s desire is to be a DO - then only apply to DO programs. However, if your life’s dream is to become a physician, be smart & apply to both MD & DO programs. If you are not successful in landing a slot in a US-based program after a couple of well-directed attempts, then & only then would I consider going to a non-US program.
Furthermore, prior to considering the Caribbean programs, I would personally pursue some of the more well-established European or Australian programs. From speaking to many Docs who attended med school in the Carib, it is populated not just by folks who struggled to get into US-based programs. The students in the Carib are the ones who struggled to get into their native country’s med schools from all over Europe, India, the US & Pacific nations.
I am certainly not saying that you cannot be an excellent physician having attended a Carib program. I have worked with many good physician who started there. What I am saying is that there are stigma attached to earning your MD degree there that can place additional hurdles into your career path. For some folks, the Carib may be their only option & if that is the case & you are willing to accept the additional scrutiny & risks - go for it. But do it from a knowledgable perspective. One of the risks is that you may not be able to return to the US to train. I suspect it is not common, but no one publishes stats on this; so no one can know or profess to know the truth on this.
I still don’t understand why you would look at the DO schools and Carribean schools as backup schools (which was the question I was originally arguing and still not a proponent of).
I am sure happy I got into both because it seems even though you guys seem to be arguing the quality of physicians who graduate from both schools are equivalent, you would prefer to be a MD than a DO.
- the dude Said:
I think you need to reread those posts. No where in the preceeding posts does it state nor imply that any of us advocate using DO programs as a backup. We all three clearly state that you will not perceive, in the real world of medicine, a substantive difference in how DOs practice vs. MDs. Furthermore, the take home message that I am trying to convey is that this is much larger than the letters behind your signature.
- the dude Said:
Again, this inference you are making is a about as far off base as you could get. Linda wanted to be a DO above all. I wanted to be a physician & choose the DO route and have had no regrets along the way. Frankly, I could not care less what my degree is/was, proving myself as a clinician involves far more lofty parameters than what my degree is or where I went to school. If you are entering your training expecting extra cookies & milk during your residency merely due to what degree you have, you are in for a rude awakening.
The quality of physician that graduates from any medical school, be it Harvard or KCOM or UCSF or PCOM or any one of the umpteen programs out there is purely a product of what YOU put into it. The name of your school & $2 will get you a cup of coffee...believe me, when you elbows deep in some dude's guts, he could give 2 shits where you went to medical school. He does care deeply about you knowing what you are doing & that you care for him as your patient.
Lastly, my remarks about opting for the Caribbean - for some, that will be their only option. There are some very good docs who have come out of Carib programs. But, even the best of them face additional hurdles BECAUSE they came from a Carib program. My strategic suggestion was that if you are not successful in US-based programs (that is MD & DO...just so we are clear & that I leave no room for creative re-interpretation) that I would look into the more reputable European & Australian med schools that accept US citizen applicants purely due to the additional scrutiny that accompanies being a Caribbean graduate.
Does this make my intent & that of the others (Linda & Mary) more clear?
Dave,
I understood what you all said but let me explain to you how I am interpreting it in a PM. I think we are starting to get away from what the original poster was asking - which I am probably at most blame for. 
First I definitely bear some of the responsibility for getting this topic off-track because I was the one who took exception to the distinction Dude made between MD and DO - a distinction that I think has been pretty well debunked above. It wasn’t the main point of The Dude’s reply, and it actually had pretty much nothing to do with the OP’s main question. But since it’s getting a little murky, here’s what the OP said in relation to DO / Caribbean:
- MichCap79 Said:
In many parts of the U.S., people **do** see applying to D.O. schools as some sort of alternative or backup plan, at least until they look into it. I take the OP's question as coming from this perspective - just not really understanding, yet, that DO schools aren't significantly different in terms of admissions from MD schools.
On the other hand, I don't think there's anything incorrect about viewing Carib schools as an alternative or backup. My definition of a "backup" is a plan that'll work if my first choice isn't working, and by that definition, Carib schools absolutely qualify because people who cannot get a seat in a U.S. med school (M.D. or D.O.) get accepted at these schools. I am pretty sure that Carib is not anyone's first choice. (unless they simply cannot countenance taking the MCAT for some reason, and then some Carib schools would become a first choice because they don't require the MCAT)
Back to the OP's most burning question: work LORs. OP, I can tell you from experience that I got LORs from some folks at work and those letters were actually pretty awful. (they sent me copies; I didn't ask) They were written by highly-educated professionals and fortunately were sent only to my pre-med committee at George Mason, where I did my prerequisite courses. I didn't see the letters that were written by my professors from my coursework, but I have to suspect that they were much better!
I served on an AdCom while I was a student at GWU and so I got to see all sorts of LORs. A good LOR for a prospective med student needs to address his/her ability to do really well in an intensive **academic** environment. Med school is not really much like work, even a tough intensive job that requires lots of smarts. An employer who understands academics may be able to write a good LOR but I'd be vee-e-e-r-r-r-r-rrrry careful who you ask and what you expect.
This is really long-winded, sorry!
Mary