I was just wondering if anyone here had attended a medical school that gave grades during the first two years, and if so, what importance those grades have during residency matching.
I am leaning somewhat towards attending a school that does give grades. I know many people talk about how much they appreciate pass/fail. I am not sure that for me, personally, having classes be pass/fail is a number one priority. I will come right out and say that sometimes I kind of like knowing that I need to claw my way to a certain score on tests. (Not that this characteristic will necessary survive through med school! I might not even be ABLE to attain the scores I want.) I’m not saying I wouldn’t appreciate pass/fail, just that I could probably survive emotionally without it.
On the other hand, some of the residencies I could see myself being interested in down the road might be somewhat competitive. For example, what if I want to do a combined Emergency/Internal Medicine residency? It looks like there aren’t very many positions! I have no idea how “well” I will do as a first or second year medical student. So I am really concerned about the importance those grades might have at residency matching time. If I do poorly in a first or second year class (or 2 or 3 such classes), will that doom me for residency? Conversely, are there any disadvantages to NOT having grades? Does anyone have any experience in this area, or interest in talking about it? Does the pass/fail issue seem like something I should weigh heavily insofar as it will pertain to my options for residency?
If anyone wants to talk about this, thanks!
By the way, let me add that what I was saying with that comment about not minding grades is that I know myself pretty well–and having external motivation is pretty important for me! I’m NOT some mean spirited freak gunner–hope it didn’t sound that way! 
Trust me on this…you will still be clawing your way to get good grades no matter what the grading system. Pass/fail is nice because once you get into medical school ALL your classmates are the top of the top so getting good grades among all these brilliant people may not be as possible as in undergrad just fyi. Medical school is hard enough as is so think about this really really hard.
pushkin,
I know this doesn’t answer your question, but not all ‘pass/fail’ systems are so simply ‘pass/fail’.
My sister is an MSII at a school that is pass/fail. She found out along the way that, while they are told what the passing grade is, the school keeps the percent number in a computer somewhere and uses that somewhere down the line.
She says it doesn’t really matter to her, but then again she’s very zen about the whole thing.
For what it’s worth . . .
M
Exactly, and passing is just “not” that easy as it was in undergrad where getting a 75 was a piece of cake. Nobody that I know of at least in my school is complacent and their goal is to “just” pass. Averages are pretty high in my class mid 90’s many times. So again do not assume that passing/fail is going to be a “laissez faire” environment, it is just not as cutthroat as if you had grades for real more cooperation and less issues with gunners.
Oh hey, I totally understand that my classmates, wherever I go, will be really hard to keep up with! That’s the essential reason why I’m concerned about going with a graded curriculum. I realize that I very likely will never be in the upper echelons on exams and stuff. Now, if and when this shows up on my transcripts, how will that affect me when I’m applying for residency?
I’m not sure whether pass/fail should be a critical issue for me in deciding where to go. I know that for a lot of people it is. Also I’ve read several posts here on OPM where people are talking about how much they like the pass/fail system–and that has really influenced how I think about this! I feel like there are good reasons to weigh that factor heavily, since people speak so highly about pass/fail. But my options aren’t so neatly arranged that I can just choose between two otherwise similar schools where the grading is the only major difference.
I hope it did not sound like I was saying that I think pass/fail is less difficult or demanding. I certainly don’t have that illusion–I’m just looking for a more concrete way to compare the two systems, such as their impact on residency matching. Oh, and I was only trying to clarify that I feel like I can probably be equally satisfied even if some of my classmates ARE gunners as if we are all one happy family. I meant that only in a personal sense.
So many schools are now on pass/fail systems that it really has no impact on residency. The clinical grades, USMLE are two huge components of residency placement not so much the pre-clinical grades or not (pass/fail) unles you are AOA or something to that effect.
I was one of those people who wanted to go to a school with grades for some of the same reasons you mentioned. However, in hindsight, I would definitely have prefered a school with straight pass/fail (not the multiple-tier version that’s no different than grades). It would have been nice to have gone somewhere that I could have felt that my goal was to learn the material and not “play the grade game” for the test material.
Also, in some idealistic way, I think it may promote a more mature, collegial atmosphere, instead of a competitive “if I share this fact with you, you may score higher on the exam than I do” atmosphere.
Just my two cents,
Tara
And lets not forget cheating. I imagine a letter grade system would encourage MUCH, MUCH more cheating. So I’ll be highly ranking my lists of schools to apply to based on the pas/fail system.
Quote:
I was one of those people who wanted to go to a school with grades for some of the same reasons you mentioned. However, in hindsight, I would definitely have prefered a school with straight pass/fail (not the multiple-tier version that’s no different than grades). It would have been nice to have gone somewhere that I could have felt that my goal was to learn the material and not “play the grade game” for the test material.
Also, in some idealistic way, I think it may promote a more mature, collegial atmosphere, instead of a competitive “if I share this fact with you, you may score higher on the exam than I do” atmosphere.
Just my two cents,
Tara
That is interesting to hear. I can see where I might feel the same way a little ways down the road. I can also imagine that I would get tired of feeling competitive towards my classmates very quickly. I’m going to keep your perspective in mind as I think over my options.
I definitely understand that there are differences among the various “pass/fail” systems too.
I am a big advocate of pass/fail for the reasons above… but to play devil’s advocate: I also got lovely evaluations for my tutorials but sucked it up on the boards. I probably would have known better the extent to which I knew boards-y “it’s on the test” kind of stuff, and what I needed to make up for, if I’d had grades. I wouldn’t have been happy about it, but I would have known better.
j
Check with schools that are pass/fail some do let you know your grades in your written evaluations so you do know where you stand…
My school is pass/fail for the first two years, with straight pass/fail, not tiered (well, there was Conditional Pass, but that was essentially the same as failing). I really, really, really liked it. Did I mention I liked it? The reason is that like Tara suggested it did promote a really nice atmosphere of helping each other out, sharing information, etcetera. I could ask any of my classmates for an explanation of something without any hesitation. I could (and did) walk into study rooms at 11:00 on the night before an exam and got clarification on something. And I did the same for others. I was nice and made 1st and 2nd years a lot more bearable. Not that it meant that it was “easy” to pass! I think that just to be certain of passing, most people studied as hard as if there were letter grades-- it was just nice to know I was competing with myself to do the best I could, not with others. We DID have a system in some classes where a letter could be put in our file if we had a certain percentage in the class, but that was based on a set standard, and as many people achieved it could get a letter. Frankly now, in third year, I wish our system was either straight pass/fail, or else we had high pass included! We still have set standards and as many people as achieve the standards, based on evaluations, shelf exams, and performance on orals or problem based assessments can honor the clerkship, so we aren’t competing with each other, but it’s still damn hard to honor. I wouldn’t mind that High Pass option!
At our school, my understanding is that the only information from our first two years that goes in the Dean’s Letter is a paragraph that basically states we were successful. We don’t have any rankings at all (I have no idea where I’m ranked in my class), so that doesn’t go in the letter. My understanding is that the 3rd and 4th years are all that really matter, with the exception, of course, of if you have failed a course-- which will show up on the transcripts.
So, while I am clearly biased, I would highly recommend pass/fail… but not at the sacrifice of going to a school where you really want to go. It’s just one consideration.
I really don’t know how residencies look at it, but I would think they’ve gotten pretty used to it by now.
Hope that is of some help.
Epidoc
My school used to give grades. It made things very competitive.
Some people say that pass/Fail is nice. However, even with this system in place, there is still a way your class ranking can be known.
Although your ranking will not be released, they are still maintained internally. One way they are communicated to others outside your institution is via your Dean’s letter, without which you will not be offered an interview. There are certain code word adjectives to describe your rank, I will give just a few in parenthesis: for top 5% (AOA), top third (outstanding), middle third (excellent), and bottom third (solid).
Another way are board scores.
Letters of rec (and the code words in them) also are helpful for determining your competitiveness among your peers. For instance, good descriptors are “best student I have had in years,” “someone I can see as my colleague,” etc. The following double entendre is a known fatal blow to one’s hopes: "I would waste no time in recommending this person."
Anyway, I would not worry about competitive programs not knowing about your outstanding class ranking. This will somehow be conveyed to the program you are interested in.
The people who really benefit from the pass/fail system are those in the bottom 10% of the class – basically, as long as they can make up for a lackluster performance in med school with better board scores, then they are virtually indistinguishable from higher ranking peers in the bottom third of their class. I don’t think it hurts the others in the class.