I’m former Navy and was wondering how many here are thinking about or are Health Professions Scholarship Program (HPSP) participants?
I still have 3 semesters of prereqs to finish but vacillate intensely with applying to USUHS (military medical school), having the military pay for med school (HPSP), just taking out loans but joining (FAP) during residency (FAP), going reserves, or kissing the military goodbye forever.
I’m not currently in. I did 10 years and that is the rub. By the time I payback the time from medical training I will able to retire from the military with a $45k/year pension and no school debt…then the flip side is I also am earning 50-60% of what I could earn as a civilian so in essence I break even…?
Any thoughts or guidance? It’s not really that far down the road to start thinking about this. I mean I could apply broadly and if am only accepted by USUHS then my decision was made for me. 
Anyhow I figured another topic on financing education couldn’t hurt.
Croooz;
For some folk, the military is a superb option to reduce your debt. TEC (Tara) is one of the OPMers who took this route. Also, fortuitously, at this years conference, we are having a military & medicine discussion panel to explore this very option.
In my opinion, if you know what you are getting into & the pluses & minuses of the military life & commitment are OK by you & your family, then you cannot beat it! In your case, you could retire young enough to go on & still join a private practice group & end up double-dipping for retirement…and do it DEBT FREE! For me, personally, being a good bit older with small children an unwilling wife (for the military life) and me being an obstinate, grumpy old fart who does not take well to others ordering him around - it was not a good fit.
I’d be interested to see who does the military discussion at the conference. I know from speaking to military doctors and residents that they have apprehensions at their competence. Not because of ability but because of a lack of a patient load. There is not much in terms of pathology because you are dealing with a young, healthy population. The EM you see and experience currently in theater is nothing of what you will encounter as a civilian EM physician. I’m not discounting the work done just wondering how prepared to practice on the outside I would be.
I’ve worked in a few Navy ER’s and it was nothing like the civilian ER I’ve had to go to for emergent treatment. One thing I’m really thinking about is how capable will I be after paying back my time to the military.
The military of the 80-90’s is not the same military we’re in now. There have been major cutbacks and doctors are struggling to get sent to CME’s much less able to see enough patients to keep skills.
Case in point, a gen. surgeon after completing his residency was sent onboard a carrier where in the three years he was away was nothing more than a glorified general practitioner. He did something like 50 surgeries in 3 years. That frightens me because how is he expected to keep his skills sharp.
While I would definitely enjoy to be debt free and earning a $45k/year pension at 52 I think about becoming the best physician I can be. It’s as if I will do all the work to become a physician then settle for the understanding that instead of being competent I will be debt free. 
Flame away. However no “you hate the troops” crap. I personally support the war but not the troops. think Bill Maher. 
Croooz,
No flaming here…I think your perspective is an interesting one & one I certainly had not considered. I think it would also be very situationally & assignment dependent; so I would be cautious in painting in too broad a stroke. Most definitely, there are pos/neg to be weighed. I mean, afterall, becoming a physician w/o debt riding over your head can’t be obtained for free. The question becomes, is the deal that they offer fit you & your professional goals sufficiently well to offset the inevitable downsides. That will true of any deal you consider. Same goes for the several states who offer significant subsidization of your tuition for guarantees to return to practice within their confines. Plus = less/zero debt // Neg = less control over your immediate future & specialty choices.
I agree. I’m just not sure if I’m willing to deal with the things I presented nor take the chance of getting stationed where I would be best utilized. You give up alot of freedoms. I’ve contemplated that perhaps the best is to be residency trained as a civilian and then go in or join the reserves after residency. With the one I would still be exposed to the potential of deteriorating skills. I work at the Mecca of Navy Medicine and know a bunch of docs who moonlight to keep their skills sharp. The Reserve route might work. There’s no financial incentive, at least none that makes me stand up and shout. However I would still have the potential of earning a pension but this one wouldn’t be paid until I’m at true retirement age. So not exactly sure prolonging the pain is worth it.
Just not sure I’m still that guy who wanted to be a lifer. I have a g_d-daughter now and can’t imagine if she was my own leaving her to deploy and not truly work in the capacity I trained for. It begs the question, why would I join? For the financial benefits? Seems a bit ridiculous but then I think about reaching 52 and then looking back and saying “what if”…
Damned if I do, damned if I don’t.
Just posting some ideas I’m throwing around while studying organic. Nothing’s in stone except that I will be a physician so time will tell.
I have to admit, if I were to do it again, I may have considered going through med school on my own, then going in under the load repayment program. I definitely want to go back in, but where I feel I was restricted was in being able to pick my own residency. Though I can’t complain (got my specialty of choice and a civilian residency as an added bonus), I will say that I may have picked a combined specialty that wasn’t even an option for me if I wasn’t confined to having to have picked from the AF’s list of available specialties. I think I would have gone med/psych if I wasn’t in the military.
That all said, there is something extremely comfortable about the fact that I have no debt and that I received a paycheck through med school. My military resident counterparts are making about $15k more a year than me now. I know that I will be underpaid compared to my civilian colleagues as some point in my career, my high 5 figures, low 6 figures will be far more than my parents ever made and enough to keep a poor kid from the inner city comfortable.
Something else is that I don’t mind getting stationed everywhere and anywhere. The only place I don’t want to go is back to the east coast, Ohio (too close to the east coast), and the southeast (been there, done that). Alaska and Europe are my goals. Plus, I want to get involved in flight medicine and going through neurology first has lots of great opportunities in neuro-occ med (yes, such a small niche does exist) as well as aerospace med.
Would I do it again? Yes, because I did not burden my husband with lots of debt and I will get to go back in. I miss the military, its structure, comaraderie and the sense of community. I keep telling my husband who retires this summer after 22 years in that he is in for a culture shock.
Looking forward to discussing this more in depth at the conference.
Tara (on call on the HIV service tonight)
PS- search some of my old posts. I’ve talked about this before. I think it would be interesting to see how my thoughts have changed as I’ve gone through the whole process.
Im shocked that not one person has thought about the negative impact that the US military has left on this world. I mean more than just Iraq…the phillipines, afghanistan…the list goes on.
I think as current or future physicians we should be conscious of how our decisions impact the world around us. Its not just about having a debt to repay. I would rather pay over 100,000 of debt before I choose to fight the militaries unjust wars.
Unless you have something constructive to post leave your political views for the OPM family room.
Croooz, sorry, I can’t agree with you here. For some people, the policies the military is required to carry out is a major reason not to consider military service. Not everyone who disagrees with the original poster of a thread is non-constructive.
Has that poster actually been there and SEE what we do? because a lot of folks like to blab about this and that and have NO clue. We certainly bring forth a lot of good that does not get plastered all over the news.
The thread is whether or not serving in the military as a physician is worth it from a competence standpoint. It’s not about political reasons not to join nor global approval of the military in making a decision. It’s about whether a physician stands to gain anything medically from joining.
Okay, so sometimes people do wander off topic a bit. It’s not really helpful to label their posts as non-constructive tirades to bring things back on track. I’d rather say I’d prefer not to discuss the larger political issues of the good or bad of the military on this thread.
So getting back to the point: Does anybody else have experience with military scholarships or know physicians serving in the military who would like to add something?
First, it is not the military that has made these choices, but the President and Washington, DC. While the military is not an option for me due to my age (I don’t think that they will take 40+ y/o), I think that it is a good choice for many. This is one way to support our troops, making sure that they have adequate healthcare whether they are in battle or on the homefront (wondering when they may be sent into hostile territories).
So for this poster, don’t criticize the military…go to the top…the President and the Pentagon who make the decisions.
Krisss17
I would agree. We do so many humanitarian missions to poor countries that are never publicized. We’ve had doctors over in Afganistan for a year at a time, providing the first OB/GYN care that they’ve ever had. They’re saving lives everyday. While I don’t like war, the military is not all bad. We as doctors in the military go into it so that we can help people. Period.
There are a lot of great things about military medicine. If anyone would like info on the military route through med school, feel free to contact me, I’m a student at USUHS and have many contacts with military doctors of all services.
Gina
You might also consider joining the national guard. The guard will pay 4500 dollars per year of your tuition and will pay 1319 per month as a stipend while in school and will pay the GI bill kicker (approx 700 per month) and will pay drill pay (2nd Lt. about 350 per month. Assuming a 15000 per year public school-4500. You will walk out of school with tuition debt of not more than $44000 and the approx 2400 per month, mostly tax free would be great. The catch…8 years after graduation from med school. While in school you are non deployable and not one person that I have heard of has been deployed while in residency. The one weekend per month beats the military telling you what specialty to pick.
Thanks wcliffa. I’ll look into the NG.
Hello Croooz,
I am prior service enlisted and currently under the Army HPSP. I also have a good friend (classmate) who is under the Navy HPSP.
For myself it is a great way to go. Everything is paid for, and I get a bi-weekly stipend to live on. However, I do understand that the military is not for everyone, but since you are prior service, you know what to expect.
This isn’t an issue about policy. It’s about taking care of our Nations sons & daughters; the soldiers & sailors.
Have a nice day.
- croooz Said:
I've worked in a few Navy ER's and it was nothing like the civilian ER I've had to go to for emergent treatment. One thing I'm really thinking about is how capable will I be after paying back my time to the military.
The military of the 80-90's is not the same military we're in now. There have been major cutbacks and doctors are struggling to get sent to CME's much less able to see enough patients to keep skills.
Case in point, a gen. surgeon after completing his residency was sent onboard a carrier where in the three years he was away was nothing more than a glorified general practitioner. He did something like 50 surgeries in 3 years. That frightens me because how is he expected to keep his skills sharp.
While I would definitely enjoy to be debt free and earning a $45k/year pension at 52 I think about becoming the best physician I can be. It's as if I will do all the work to become a physician then settle for the understanding that instead of being competent I will be debt free.
Flame away. However no "you hate the troops" crap. I personally support the war but not the troops. think Bill Maher.
True the Army of the 80s & 90s isn’t like it is today. However, I beg to differ about skills. The Army ER isn’t alot different from any of the ERs in Philly. Gunshot wound after gunshot wound. If you’re looking for trauma, the new Army has plenty of need for skilled physicians.
If you want to be a surgeon I suggest you go into the Army. The Navy Docs get far less exposure initially, because they have to do a GMO tour. And lets face it, how much surgery do you have to do on a ship.
Like I said, you’re either pro-military or con-military. Either way the troops still need the Medical Corps’s full support.
If you have doubts, I suggest you look into other scholarships.
Listen I know you’re excited and full of gung ho patriotism and can’t wait to put on the officers uniform and do some good. However that’s not the point I’m getting at. Don’t continue to make this a false dilemma akin to Bush with “You’re either with us or you’re a terrorist!”.
The troops need medical support. I’m not denying that. That is not what’s in question here. Neither is my patriotism.
The jest of the issue is that many physicians do not come out of the military prepared. Many have skills which have atrophied. This is not presumption or hearsay on my part. I sit no more than 4 feet from an Army Colonel who retires next year with concerns. He’s brought in buddies of his and we’ve talked about their concerns and his concerns and the state of Army Medicine. I’ve sat down and spoken with the now former Surgeon General of the Army in my office as well. I’m not pulling my doubts out of thin air. They are substantiated not only by Army brass but also Navy which is who I work with primarily.
The short comings of military medicine are real. Putting your head in the sand or assuming things will just get better isn’t going to work. A GSW is a GSW regardless if in Iraq or Miami. I’m not talking about trauma you see anywhere but the sales pitch that because you will see trauma like no other in Iraq that one should join the military. It begs the question that if the military is the only place you will see those injuries why on earth join to be limited by those types of injuries. The only reason once can give is the one you have which is patriotism.
Now get patriotism out of the way and all the emotions that evokes. Once back stateside and at a regular ER what did all that trauma give you? Is it really worth everything you must go thru to attain that level of zen? Taking patriotism out it makes the decision a bit flat…and that’s my point which now matches yours.
Unless you join to do your part for the troops then there are basically no real reasons to join. While the medical training is from substandard to extraordinary you have an otherwise healthy patient population. With Tricare those truly sick patients are being sent elsewhere. With military hospital administrators using business metrics to decide the budget for a medical facility why besides the troops would one join? When a nurse can override your prescribed treatment plan for a patient based on metrics and not what is in the best interest of the patient…why would one join?
I am a 10 year vet so joining for me would be a great decision as far as the scholarship is involved. However there is more to it than that for me. Unfortunately making my decision because of my future patient population seems a bit frivolous. Let’s not forget we are also talking about money here. No one is joining HPSP simply because they support the troops. If there were zero dollars to be had there would about zero chance you would get people to join.
So which brings me back around to without patriotism coming into play and only looking at the money and training should a person join. I’m not campaigning against joining. I’m just giving you a glimpse into my thoughts. You can choose to disagree and turn your nose up to me and my pragmatic view. However I’m not going to make a financial and career decision because of any romanticized view of the military. By your own admission you didn’t tell me to look elsewhere for training but to look elsewhere for money to pay for school. So there is more to it than just the Red, White, & Blue.
We can discuss this like intelligent adults. I’m not looking for a flame war.