Hello!
After searching around for quite some time, I decided to post here. I have some questions, and this board is definately one of the most mature and helpful sources of encouragement and information on pre-med for non-trads that I can find. This is a long post, essentially a copy of an email I sent to a doctor friend of the family a while ago. Any comments and advice would be greatly appreciated. The theme of the email is more “timing” based than a “what are my chances” type of thread. Background - I’m a naval officer, 27 yrs old.
By the way, the name’s Ryan. 
I’ve often considered going to med school to become a doctor. In terms of specialty, I haven’t afforded that much thought in the past - but I know that I’ve wanted to practice medicine. I figured once in the pipeline, I would be able to more accurately gage what interested me. I haven’t given this endeavor my full strength because of timing: I still have 3 years and 6 days that I owe to Uncle Sam. I’ll be 30 when my military service is complete. So becoming a doctor has seemed more like an un-attainable dream than anything. With that in mind, I also like to argue. I have spent the past 4-5 amounts of years preparing to attend law school someday. This has more or less been a mental, “ramp-up” preparation than anything else. Studying from time to time for the LSATs, attending court hearings every now and then, and talking to various lawyers.
A few weeks ago, my ship had 4 special ops field trauma surgeons on-board to conduct some training they needed for their line of work. This 4 man team was the elite of the elite in the military. They are on call for 90 ( or was it more…) days of the year to go anywhere at anytime and provide emergency care for US Special Forces in the field. When I say anywhere, I literally mean it. During their time on board, I talked to them a bit and somewhere during the conversation my past aspirations of pursuing medicine came up. All 4 of them encouraged me to pursue it - and to my counter arguments of ‘why I shouldn’t’, they presented me with their own life stories and examples of how they became doctors. The biggest shock was directly related to my age concern. To make a long story short, one of the doctors was enlisted for 17 years before he went to med school. If he enlisted at 18, that puts him at 35. To me, that’s very impressive because I would have thought that being 30 was too old given the amount of time and training that goes into being a competent, knowledgeable doctor.
Naturally, this re-kindled my interest in medicine. Usually when I see a doctor for whatever reason, I will ask him more questions than he or she will ask me. I like systems and I like to figure things out. I’ve had that curiosity all my life.
Since then, I’ve been doing serious research on getting into medical school and the profession itself. MCAT’s, pre-reqs, etc. I am going to be completely honest - after reading around various forums and blogs, I am completely discouraged from going this route in my life.
After high school, I enlisted in the Navy in '99 in the Nuclear Engineering program. I graduated with a good GPA in 2001 (this is a military, non-accredited program, though most colleges recognize it). Shear tenacity and a WHOLE lot of luck afforded me a chance to attend the US Naval Academy. I graduated with a Bachelors of Science in History. I declared history as my major because the majority of my previous education has been all technical. I also love to read and watch the history channel. My degree is a B.S. because at the Academy, you are required to take a mandatory class matrix. I took a year of Chem, Physics (calc based), Calc up to Diff Eq’s, EE, Thermal Dynamics, etc. Mostly science and engineering based. I graduated in 2006, towards the bottom of my class but not the very bottom. I had way too many over achievers as classmates. Combined with military duties, classes were tough. Unfortunately, I was on the short end of the stick in my chemistry classes with the notoriously bad professor for both semesters. (I did not take biology or organic chem.) Since then, I have earned every qualification I can in the fleet, with the pinnacle being my Engineering Officer of the Watch qual. Only 5% of officers earn this in there first 5 years in the Navy. I got mine in less than 2. All this means is that certain technical and engineering firms will hire based off this alone - essentially, it means that I manage a large technical facility.
The MCAT itself is one hurdle - I test well. It’s finite and quantifiable…and achievable to get a decent score. My main concern is to be competitive for admission to med school. My science scores suffered at the academy and I am pretty sure that my overall GPA was a 2.6-2.8. I should point out that I’m ADD. I take Ritalin. I did not take it back then as I was not allowed. I am actually the first person in the history of the Navy to be allowed to take Ritalin while retaining an un-restricted status. This happened towards the end of my academy time. Again, tenacity and perseverance paid off. Had I been on a medication regime while at USNA, I have no doubt I would have been able to maintain a high GPA. Note that I did not say successful. Graduating from that gulag is success enough in my book.
Researching admissions requirements, etc., and also reading first hand accounts of what other prospective medical school students went through, combined with my age factor, I am very discouraged. Does it make sense for me to pursue an M.D.? Let’s say it comes down to me having to retake all pre-req courses from an established university to prove (which in my mind, it’s just a form of proof or validity to a med school admissions board) that I can attain a high science GPA. I would be at least 33-35 before I could begin the admissions process to have a realistic chance of medical school acceptance. At which point be at least 39 before I start a residency program (barring I was accepted to a residency). Is this really where I want to be at this point in my life? I know the answer to this question, but does it make sense? I’m a very practical person. Going off of this argument, more options are spawn: Do I really want to be an M.D., or would do I want to work in the medical field? There are other options an being a doctor. Nurse, PA, PT, etc. I would bet money that I would be asked that question at an interview. Aside from attaining a med degree, I would need a job after graduation. The military is always hiring, but for me at this (and that) point in my life, I am going to retain that as a last resort option. Even with the HPSP scholarship - for the reasons that I want total control over my education.
Going back to law school… My history and my qualifications almost make me a shoe-in to attend. I say that humbly too. I know of a few places that as long as you have a pulse, you’re accepted. I also know that quite a few law schools take into account your background and what you have done in your life. I am confident that I would not have any admissions problems to law school, accept for the best of the best. This is one of the factors that originally lead me to consider a legal career. Keep in mind that I said I wanted to go to law school - this doesn’t necessarily mean I want to be a lawyer. The law fascinates me. How our society functions around it fascinates me even more. I’m sure after attaining a J.D., I would pursue a career using it. Also, law school is 3 years, thus putting me in the field of professionals at age 33 vice 43. It is NEVER too late to stop learning, but time is precious and it is always running out.
So now I have the 2 paths laid out before me - M.D. - because I want to practice medicine. The human body is the most advanced technology we have, and to work and understand that is akin to taking apart old radios when I was a boy and trying to figure out how those worked. J.D. - to me, confidence that it would be a sure thing of sorts. I would enter the professional community at a younger age, and I would be able to become more established at a younger age.
One more thing I should add, what is the best way for me to complete the required pre-req’s? I have the year of chem and physics, but no bio / orgranic chem.
I’m going to hold off on making any comments about medical school admissions, because I am new here as well.
As far as the more general questions and questions about law school: choose what you are going to be most passionate about. From your post it sounds more like medicine than law. A lot of people say they want to go to law school, but not practice law. In my opinion, that is a terrible reason to go. Sure there are a lot of non-legal opportunities for law grads, but the good ones of those require just as good if not better grades than to get a good law firm job. The legal market is very oversaturated and has been so for a very long time.
Secondly, unlike medical school, you are right, anyone with a pulse can go to law school. It is a really tough post law school world out there for a lot of law school grads. I don’t know, it might be the same for medicine, but I don’t think it is quite the same since the schools are more selective.
To sum up, you can learn about the law without going to law school. Don’t go if you don’t want to be a lawyer. But I’m biased, I don’t think anyone should go. 
(I am a licensed attorney. Graduated law school in 2007. Why did I go to law school? It seemed as good as anything else at the time. Also a very bad reason.)
Having attended a service academy, I do understand and relate to the unique experiences that you’ve undergone. With that said, you do need to get perspective on what you want for the future–which is probably the reason why you posted on this board. Right now, I think you’re enamored with the glamour of medicine and surgery. To get a realistic view, you should try whenever you can to try to tag along with some medical corps officers (MD and DO) and/or medical service corps officers (PA, PT, etc.). Try to get a real good sense of how each member of the health care team works together and the responsibilities each one holds. Ask questions. Listen carefully and pay close attention to the downside to each of the professions. Of course, you should have these newfound connections refer you to their civilian counterparts where again you shadow and ask questions to get a realistic perspective on practicing in the civilian world. From these experiences, you should be able to decide which, if any, route you should take.
Since you mentioned your desire not to continue on in the military, I’ll just say that because you have commissioned officer active duty time the maximum entrance age for USUHS would be kicked-out to 35 for you. For HPSP, you just have to be able to serve a total 20 years active duty as a commissioned officer (= medical corps plus unrestricted line time) before age 60(?) even though the obligated service length is only four years. Otherwise, I really wouldn’t worry about the age thing. I believe most of America believes ageism is wrong and this is the reason why the only places where ageism can be practiced is in the military and in some government jobs like law enforcement and air traffic controllers.
Just to toss-out something else to think about, there are combined MD/JD and DO/JD programs where you study continuously for six or seven years to end-up with both degrees at the end. Each program, though, is unique on admission requirements (like if both MCAT and LSAT are required) so you’d have to find-out on the ones you’re interested on your own.
But to answer your question about premedical prerequisites, all the service academy curriculums for the first two years pretty much mimic the first two years of an engineering degree. So all you need to take is one year of General Biology and one year of Organic Chemistry. I’ve heard good things from deployed service members about Mountain State University where you can take these two courses with labs via distance education. You’d complete the biology lab using a prefabricated kit and complete O-chem using a supplied computer program. The person who recommended Mountain State University to me is now in medical school. With your low GPA and low class rank, though, you should really consider enrolling in an enhancing premed post-bacc program that will have you take a upper-level premedical courses in conditions that mimic medical school. This will also help you secure academic recommendations which is much better than you having to find the LT who taught you chemistry from 7 years ago.
There was a recent poster who is now a neurology resident that was a nontraditional service academy graduate like you. She graduated from West Point. After she finished her obligated service in the signal corps, she had a lull of two years where she complete her missing prerequisites, rocked the MCAT, and worked as an ER tech (as I remember) before starting medical school. I also know of a Naval Academy graduate who entered medical school nine years after her academy graduation (7 years as a surface warfare officer and 2 years preparing for medical school). I believe she is an emergency medicine resident now. So you’re definitely not the first.
Ryan,
Unfortunately, the military is one the last places in America where you can practice ageism. I think the military’s ageism has really clouded your thinking on what you want. You keep referring to what your age will be if you went the medical school route versus the law school route. You should do what you want regardless of your age. The following is post I wrote that I think will help embolden you to make the right decision for yourself:
- ihopetobeado2 Said:
I think another quite common question for those who visit this site is how to respond to the notion that older applicants won’t practice as long as their younger counterparts. First of all, realize that this notion is an ageist, specious sophism. Followers of this fallacy assume that medical practitioners will have to stop practicing at a certain age—usually somewhere around the 60s because that’s when Social Security kicks-in. This can’t be further from the truth. Easily, I can find surgeons and physicians who have practiced or who are currently practicing well past their 80s and 90s. On the other hand, I can easily find a sizeable number of medical students, residents, and physicians who while in their 20s left, by force or by choice, medicine altogether. “But,†these ageist minions may reply, “by the average lifespan. . .†Well, exactly, “by the average†we’re all going to get sick and die. “By the average†medicine is a colossal failure (how many people who are still healthy and alive today divided by how many people are living and have lived on this earth). So using your logic shouldn’t we just demolish the medical complex altogether and put the resources into something more productive? Like eugenics, maybe? We continue to support this behemoth medical complex because it is right and moral at least to try to alleviate sickness and to prolong life in spite of the overwhelming odds. “But,†the desperate ageists retort, “there are such limited resources. . .†Exactly. Residences and medical schools (no matter private or public) receive nearly all their funding from tax-supported Medicare, tax-supported student loans, and/or tax-supported government budget allocations. Who, “by the average†has paid the most in taxes? Yes, the older medical school applicants are the ones who have. The older applicants have more claim to these “limited resources†and are far more invested in becoming physicians. This is usually enough to shut the ageists down.
- ihopetobeado2 Said:
Since you mentioned your desire not to continue on in the military, I’ll just say that because you have commissioned officer active duty time the maximum entrance age for USUHS would be kicked-out to 35 for you. For HPSP, you just have to be able to serve a total 20 years active duty as a commissioned officer (= medical corps plus unrestricted line time) before age 60(?) even though the obligated service length is only four years. Otherwise, I really wouldn’t worry about the age thing. I believe most of America believes ageism is wrong and this is the reason why the only places where ageism can be practiced is in the military and in some government jobs like law enforcement and air traffic controllers.
Just to toss-out something else to think about, there are combined MD/JD and DO/JD programs where you study continuously for six or seven years to end-up with both degrees at the end. Each program, though, is unique on admission requirements (like if both MCAT and LSAT are required) so you’d have to find-out on the ones you’re interested on your own.
But to answer your question about premedical prerequisites, all the service academy curriculums for the first two years pretty much mimic the first two years of an engineering degree. So all you need to take is one year of General Biology and one year of Organic Chemistry. I’ve heard good things from deployed service members about Mountain State University where you can take these two courses with labs via distance education. You’d complete the biology lab using a prefabricated kit and complete O-chem using a supplied computer program. The person who recommended Mountain State University to me is now in medical school. With your low GPA and low class rank, though, you should really consider enrolling in an enhancing premed post-bacc program that will have you take a upper-level premedical courses in conditions that mimic medical school. This will also help you secure academic recommendations which is much better than you having to find the LT who taught you chemistry from 7 years ago.
There was a recent poster who is now a neurology resident that was a nontraditional service academy graduate like you. She graduated from West Point. After she finished her obligated service in the signal corps, she had a lull of two years where she complete her missing prerequisites, rocked the MCAT, and worked as an ER tech (as I remember) before starting medical school. I also know of a Naval Academy graduate who entered medical school nine years after her academy graduation (7 years as a surface warfare officer and 2 years preparing for medical school). I believe she is an emergency medicine resident now. So you’re definitely not the first.
I wrote the email a few weeks ago, and since that point (and some soul seeking, journal writing) have figured out why I wanted to go to law school in the first placed. I first figured out when (in time) I made that decision and why. Suffice it to say, they are the wrong reasons deep down.
You all have made a very good point about ageism...and the military. I am definitely institutionalized when it comes to that regard. I also think my mode of thinking comes from the fact that I went to college 3 years behind my high school friends. They were a smart, academic crowd, and I never felt like I have really lived up to the peer pressure of them studying engineering at U of M, etc. Though, I have "grown up" in that regard and have done good for myself.
The amount of time left to practice in my life was also a big consideration. Again, an intelligent analysis of the situation shows that it shouldn't really be an issue. It's true: the only person holding me back is myself. I tend to over analyze, over think, and often in the process beat myself down...yet I painfully push myself to the end.
This endeavor is also revisited territory for me. It requires a plan. The last time I had a plan was during my application phase to the Naval Academy. I haven't really had one since (I'm sad to say). 6 yrs.
I would ask help in forming a plan now. I have 3 years of active duty left. For the record, I would love to practice medicine in the military, however I would like to attend med school as a civilian - I have a few friends who have done HPSP and they're only complaint was that they had no real control over their residency choices. Tuition payback exists if I commit during that time, so I'm content with that. Being able to complete biology and organic chem abroad would be ideal in the next 3 years. Doing more research, I think a post-bac program would be good. For the academic recommendations as well as the gpa-boost. My position in the military and what I do as an officer actually afford me job-shadow time while on the ship and while on deployments. The majority is with military medicine. I will try to work out civilian counterpart opportunities as well.
My best friend's girl friend is a PT student, and she has already arranged lab-time for me this summer with the human cadavers - I am strangly looking forward to this.
Again, thanks for your inputs and I'll continue to post my thoughts and discoveries!
You have a decision to make. Pick a profession and pour your soul into it. If it’s law, great. If it’s medicine, take the four science prerequisites and get good grades. Also, take a practice MCAT just for fun. Do not take the real one until you have hard evidence that you will do well.
Regarding your question about age–you pointed out that you may be 39 by the time you enter residency.
Lots of people are going in later than that, for one thing. Also, think of it this way. You are going to turn 39 in a few years. You can be 39 and be a physician, or you can be 39 and not a physician–the choice is yours.
Best of luck,