I am a former SDNer new to Old Premeds. I kind of got tired of a med student over on SDN that turned into an everpresent troll/flamer. I joined Old Premeds a couple years ago, but only lurked on occasion; this is my first post, so go easy on me!
I was hoping some of you could provide me some insight on applying to med school. I am a reapplicant starting the cycle for 2007. I am 32 years old and hope to get into med school before retirement. 
I applied for 2005 and interviewed at OSU-COM and KCUMB, KCOM rejected me without interview.
I am trying to figure out just what adcomms really want (if they even know ).
I have figured out that it is not experience, because many med schools accept students out of high school (scary, but true). For the same reason, it is not a proven academic track record nor maturity. Also, studies have shown that high school grades and college entrance exams are a poor predictor of academic success. It is not MCAT score, because the schools I applied to said mine is great and advised me not to retake. It is not perseverence, because I have a long demonstrated track record of that. It is not passion or drive because I have a longer track record for that. It is not exactly GPA, because, although mine is not the best, two schools invited me to interview. It is not dedication, because I have demonstrated that for many years. It is not that they are screening out people who wouldn’t make good doctors because I have seen my share of quacks out there.
I give up, what the @#$% do they want?!?
There are a few things that you don’t specifically mention that medical schools are looking for, and I can’t entirely tell from your post how you stack up in these areas. You may or may not have these, so this is kind of a general post.
First, what is your health care experience? Have you shadowed or spent time as in clinician in a setting that allowed you to get a good feel for the demands of a physician’s life? Even though I had significant clinical experience, I was still questioned at interviews about what experience I had with shadowing, talking with physicians, etc.
Altruism. Does your application show that you really enjoy helping people? I’m talking sincere volunteerism here, something that you really enjoy, not that you do just to log some volunteer hours.
Leadership. Have you demonstrated leadership skills/abilities through your job/school/community?
Grades. Yes, you got invited to interview. But maybe in your interviews you did not convince them that you had valid reasons for less than stellar grades and/or something in your academic record concerned them about your ability to handle the basic science coursework.
Letters of recommendation. Did you have strong letters from people who knew you well?
I’m just throwing out some ideas here. You indicate that you talked to schools about your MCAT, at least. If you haven’t done so, you might consider making an appointment with an admissions counselor at the schools that rejected you. I don’t suggest going in there with a “Why did you reject me?” feel, but rather with a “What could I do to improve my application and make me a stronger candidate?” This may or may not give you any insight. Some people at some schools will be very blunt and honest with you, others will give you standard answers that don’t specifically address your application.
There is the possibility that your interview got you rejected. There are candidates with outstanding grades/MCATs/research/and so on who are rejected because of their demeanor at the interview. Schools often encourage their admissions staff and/or students who speak with interviewees to let them know if something really bothers them about a candidate.
Another possibility is WHEN you interviewed. If you were an average candidate and interviewed late in the cycle at rolling schools, this could have factored into your rejections.
You could also consider a professional counselor. There are a few of them floating around (Judy Colwell posts on here), some of whom worked in admissions prior to branching out on their own. I think you need someone unbiased to take a look at the application you submitted and give you a brutally honest opinion.
Hopefully this is helpful and some other people will jump in here with some ideas.
Amy
Well, as you have determined, various med schools look at various parameters and are looking for students who fit into the school’s Mission Statement. (BTW, when you are looking at med schools, take the time to read their Mission Statement - it’s important.)
Yes, the process at a particular school may seem random, but it’s not. Admissions folks put a huge amount of time and effort trying to “get it right” for their particular school. So while someone with a 4.0 gpa and 15s across the board on the MCAT (and with virtually no experiencial history of clinical experience, etc.) may not get into a particular med school, another applicant with less impressive academics but tons of experiencial history may well get the nod. (Yes, I’ve seen this exact scenario multiple times.)
But to first put aside the idea about med school accepting high school students…some schools have 7 or 8 year programs (when I was at Northwestern, it was a brand new 6 yr. program) whereby a student is accepted into the college and concurrently into the med school after 2, 3, or 4 years at that college. However, there are significant caveats; maintaining a very competitive gpa is one of them. There are others. Occasionally I have worked with h.s. students applying into these programs (which themselves are very competitive for admittance), and in my limited experience, the h.s. students who are even giving thought to applying tend to be those students we were discussing a day or so ago…unbelievably talented, even as a h.s. student. Since “past performance predicts future behavior,” med schools don’t think that they are taking much of a risk with these h.s. students. And they have a few years to see if the student, during college, lives up to the med school’s expectations.
But for applicants with h.s. and college completed, med schools are looking for some combination (each school has different parameters) of acadeimc excellence and experience (what we call the “non-cognitive variables”).
If you haven’t heard this already, remember, being on the admissions side of the coin is a process whereby you are weeding out applicants. With 5-10,000+ applicants, you are looking for reasons not to send a secondary application, or reasons not to interview. It is more of a negative process than not. Those applicants who make it through this process are those whom you, as a medical school, think are the prime candidates for your goals (see Mission Statement) as a medical school. You then invite these applicants for an interview. And then the selection process begins yet again. Be aware that the interview is very important. The school already thinks that you are a good candidate. Med schools rarely have the resources to interview applicants whom they think “might be interesting…let’s get more information.” They interview because they already know that you seem to fit their goals. The interview is your last chance to help the AdComm understand what separates you from the rest of the interviewing group.
Medical school admissions folks are very committed individuals, trying to find the best students for their school (see Mission Statement). An applicant with a 4.0 gpa and 15s on the MCAT (and little other evidence of medical desire) may well be denied an interview at a particular school, while another applicant with a less impressive academic record, but significant evidence of leadership, clinical experience, volunteering will get an acceptance at that same school. (Yes, I’ve seen this scenario multiple times.) There is a rhyme and reason to the process, although not often evident to the applicant, unfortunately.
Cheers,
Judy
Oops…I guess I can’t write long missives and try to edit and get it right. I knew something was a bit strange about my posting with the bit about the 4.0 and 15s - it seemed as if I had written it twice, or some of it mysteriously had dropped out when I reviewed it. Sigh. Forgive the extra bandwidth.
Cheers,
Judy
Hi, thanks for the reply.
My health care experience is that I have worked in a hospital pharmacy (clinical only) for 4 1/2 years. Also I have shadowed a number of physicians close to 150 hours total. In addition, I grew up around my uncle’s rural clinic and saw him perform a number of procedures including a finger reattachment, which I talked about in my interviews.
I have volunteered for Mother’s Against Drunk Driving since before I returned to college to get into medical school, not just to look good on my app.
I was a business and financial planner for three years. I was an assistant instructor in martial arts for three years. I was a restaurant supervisor for about 3 years. I was secretary of the local chapter of MADD for 2 years, president for 2, and then VP for 2.
You could be right about the grades. I didn’t address it much because I was told that it was a closed file interview. Maybe this was a mistake on my part.
My physician letter was written by a very eloquent doctor, but he didn’t know me all too well, unfortunately. I had a hard time lining up someone to shadow and get a letter from. My premed committee letter was a joke, and I never should have had them send it. I did have a good letter from a PharmD that I have worked with since he was in his residency.
I have talked to admissions reps at all three schools I applied to. I will be talking again to one at KCOM soon.
I did interview late in the cycle (I will be applying very early this time). They said in my interview that I did not appear passionate about medicine. Odd, my whole file demonstrates an almost life long passion for medicine as did my answers. Unfortunately communication is 70% nonverbal, and I am a very calm, even tempered person. I don’t get excited or emotional, and I am afraid that is what they want. IMO, calm and even tempered are physician qualities, excitabiligy and emotion are not.
Thanks for the reply.
My problem with the rhyme and reason for the admissions process is that I feel like they are talking out of both sides of their mouth when they give me feedback. When they tell me that they weren’t convinced that I am passionate about medicine it makes me think that they weren’t listening to me in the interview. When they tell me that my 4 1/2 years working in a hospital pharmacy isn’t healthcare experience, but a job changing adult diapers is, it makes me think that they don’t understand healthcare at all. I was told to volunteer at a hospital to gain healthcare experience by a couple of them. In my state, hospital volunteers can: make coffee, push wheelchairs, deliver newspapers, and work at the information desk. As a pharmacy technician I: fill inpatient meds and deliver them to the units where I can observe much patient care activity, calculate and make IV admixtures where I can learn about how physicians treat disease pharmacologically, learn from pharmacists who are the only ones that understand what the physicians are talking about, work closely with nurses who are administering the meds that I dispense, and treat all the patients in the building in addition to many other great things that will help me tremendously when I get into med school. When I look at all the crazy contortions they go through to “weed people out” it makes me wonder why I have seen so many incompetent physicians.
BTW there is a .18 correlation between high school achievement tests and future performance. That is 3%. The correlation between high school grades and future performance escapes me at the moment, but it is equally as weak. I go to school with many students that are accepted based on their high school grades. Some don’t even have to take the MCAT, and many don’t have to make much over a 3.0 GPA.
I don’t know, I hate to sound negative, and I don’t mean to. I just call them as they are, but I do appreciate your experience and advice. Thanks.
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You could be right about the grades. I didn’t address it much because I was told that it was a closed file interview. Maybe this was a mistake on my part.
As you may or may not know, “closed file” simply means that the interviewer doesn’t have access to your grades. Obviously, the admissions committe still does, and considers them when making an interview decision. If you have some iffy grades in your file, IMO, you might want to bring them up in a closed file interview if you have a legitimate point to make. i.e. “I had trouble adjusting to college as a freshman, but once I made the adjustment, I feel I did very well”.
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When they tell me that my 4 1/2 years working in a hospital pharmacy isn’t healthcare experience, but a job changing adult diapers is, it makes me think that they don’t understand healthcare at all. I was told to volunteer at a hospital to gain healthcare experience by a couple of them.
This statement makes me think that you need to expound upon your healthcare experience in your personal statement and interviews. Because of their personal experiences with a pharmacy, interviewers/committee members probably DON’T see your pharmacy work as patient centered clinical experience. You will have to take the initiative to explain what you gained in clinical experience from your job, because they may not see it as such. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. One of my classmates spent 5 years working in a clinical research lab, and was told by a school that she didn’t have any clinical experience.
See if you can participate in a mock interview. Ask them to give you brutally honest feedback about how they perceived you. (If you can’t find a school that will let you participate, a professional admissions counselor might be able to help you). There are people who are rejected simply because of the impression they gave at the interview. You said that you think they weren’t listening to you if they didn’t see your passion for medicine. Sometimes, its not what you say, but HOW you say it. Do you light up when talking about your patient/clinical experiences, or do you talk about them in the same tone of voice you would discuss getting your oil changed? Do you tend to come across as aloof or arrogant or having a chip on your shoulder?
See what you can do about obtaining some better letters of recommendation. Try and get letters from people who can talk about the passion for medicine that they have seen in you.
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I go to school with many students that are accepted based on their high school grades. Some don’t even have to take the MCAT, and many don’t have to make much over a 3.0 GPA.
I’m not going to tell you that you are wrong, but I find this difficult to believe. All of the programs I am aware of that admit high school students to medical school have VERY rigorous requirements. They have to maintain a good GPA. One of my labmates was admitted right out of high school. She had all kinds of requirements she had to fulfill in order to actually matriculate. They had to do extensive shadowing and volunteering and keep a log of it. The MCAT is variable. At one school, they had to have a 25 in order to start the medical school portion and at my school, they didn’t have to take it. Keep in mind that many of these students downplay the requirements that they have to meet in order to seem more “normal” to their classmates. They still want to be accepted by their peers and not viewed as genius freaks. So, often they will make it sound like it was much easier to get into these programs than it really was. I have my own opinions on whether or not people should be admitted to medical school out of high school, but I won’t go into that here.
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I don’t know, I hate to sound negative, and I don’t mean to. I just call them as they are, but I do appreciate your experience and advice. Thanks.
I have been accused of being negative more than once when all I was doing was calling thing as I saw them, as well. Sometimes, you have to bite your tongue. I’m not trying to be mean/nasty, but in almost every post you have talked about how despite the screening procedures, people that are incompetent, unqualified, etc. end up getting in. You need to concentrate on YOUR package and and what you can do to make yourself the most desirable candidate you can be and not grumble about how unqualified people get into medical school. I know this is how you feel (especially after not getting in the first time), but it gives off a negative vibe . If it gives off a negative vibe here, how does it come across in person?
I hope this doesn’t offend you. That wasn’t the point of the last paragraph. The point was to encourage you to take an honest look at yourself from the adcom’s eyes and consider what they are seeing. It can be very difficult to realize that you are unintentionally coming across in a way you don’t mean at all. I have been in those shoes. It is devasting to realize that people have a negative opinion of you when that isn’t how you intended to come across at all.
Sincerely,
Amy
I am not trying to be mean or inconsiderate but you seem to have somewhat of a chip on your shoulder that may very well come out during your interview. Your comments about high school students and GPA correlation with entrances exams…the comment about “how could they not see my pharmacy experience as exposure to healthcare”, the comment about changing adult diapers and others gives me the sense that there is some underlying issues there. I also do not consider a pharmacy experience as “clinical exposure to medicine” because for me working in a pharmancy is that, working in a pharmacy. Sure you get to see patients but not like a physician/nurse would. Medical schools want to know that you know what doctors do on a daily basis and this can be accomplished by observing and volunteering within the realms of clinical medicine aka where doctors/nurses hang out. Also your demeanor on interview date IS on display like or not that is the way it is, and ALL folks that you meet including secretaries are annotating your application. If you come off as aloof or with a chip this will get noted so be extremely careful. Also early application is a MUST and do not know if you applied late in the cyle but this can hurt an applicant tremendoulsy.
Trust me, what I post on line is way different than what I say in an interview. Give me enough credit to know the difference. I am well aware of what I say in an interview. I have a degree in psychology, I am more aware of this than most people.
The fact is, working in a hospital pharmacy is the best premed health care experience because it is just that, working in a hospital. It is not retail pharmacy, which is what comes to mind to most people when mentioning pharmacy experience, and I think that is the problem. I have shadowed physicians for about 150 hours. Seeing a patient directly is not some magical thing that only a doctor or nurse gets. Everyone is a patient, or if they’re not, they will be. When I was a financial planner, my clients and I had a similar relationship. In any service industry there is a similar relationship. The difference in health care is health care, not direct vs. indirect contact. I think some adcomms are missing the point. If more health care workers saw it that way, maybe patients would get a lot more respect. I get to see what goes on behind the scenes every time I work. There are a lot of people working as doctors and nurses (and other professions too, not to just pick on them) who probably shouldn’t be. I work with them, I know. They don’t view the patient as a person many times. I fear this attitude is fostered by med schools acting like direct patient contact is some complicated and priveleged ritual.
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This statement makes me think that you need to expound upon your healthcare experience in your personal statement and interviews. Because of their personal experiences with a pharmacy, interviewers/committee members probably DON’T see your pharmacy work as patient centered clinical experience. You will have to take the initiative to explain what you gained in clinical experience from your job, because they may not see it as such. Fair? Maybe, maybe not. One of my classmates spent 5 years working in a clinical research lab, and was told by a school that she didn’t have any clinical experience.
I will definitely be doing that. I will also ask the PharmD who wrote my previous letter to do that. In addition, if I can get the physician who wrote my previous letter to do it again (he was a pharmacy tech before he went to med school, so he understands why this is good premed experience), I will ask him to do that, too. Incidently, he says that it has one more benefit: He made a lot of money as a tutor in med school by helping people get through all of the pharmacology stuff.
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See if you can participate in a mock interview. Ask them to give you brutally honest feedback about how they perceived you. (If you can’t find a school that will let you participate, a professional admissions counselor might be able to help you). There are people who are rejected simply because of the impression they gave at the interview. You said that you think they weren’t listening to you if they didn’t see your passion for medicine. Sometimes, its not what you say, but HOW you say it. Do you light up when talking about your patient/clinical experiences, or do you talk about them in the same tone of voice you would discuss getting your oil changed? Do you tend to come across as aloof or arrogant or having a chip on your shoulder?
I have a mock interview scheduled for tomorrow morning. I don’t come across as arrogant or a chip on my shoulder. I may seem aloof. I probably sound like I am talking about getting my oil changed. Like I said, I am very calm and even tempered. I don’t come across emotionally in most situations. Except for the fact that 70% of communication is nonverbal, this would just baffle me that an adcomm would not see this as a positive trait, but they are human too.
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I know this is how you feel (especially after not getting in the first time), but it gives off a negative vibe . If it gives off a negative vibe here, how does it come across in person?
This is not an emotional response to not getting in. I have seen a string of physicians lately for GERD. I am currently trying to find a competent one so I can stop wasting my money. Also, My wife had a couple of incompetent physicians make her suffer for over a year with gall bladder disease telling her that it was IBS. My daughter’s doctor caused her to develop chronic ear infections, and then violated a four year old’s HIPAA protections over his fragile ego when I confronted him about it. You can throw a rock and hit an incompetent physician around here. Also, I work in a hospital. I know who is worth their degree and who is not. It makes me wonder why adcomms think they do such a great job of only letting in people who will be good physicians, and it honestly makes me have to wonder what they are really looking for.
I understand that what you post on here is not what you say or how you act in interviews duh, I never said that. But there is this sense that you do have some anger/issue/whatever and that “might” come out somehow on interviews this is all I am saying. I do not know you and yes I could be wrong, but your posts come off that way. You kind of hint at incompetent physicians and how they messed up some diagnoses or whatnot well yes, there are incompetent folks in EVERY field so that is a given but trying to relate that to how admissions committees look for folks is kind of ridiculous. Of course there is no perfect method to look into folks souls and say this person will make a compassionate and excellent physician…if you come up with an objective measure of this you can patent that and get rich! most schools get thousands of applications so numbers is “some” sort of weed out and this varies btw schools. Some will take MCAT of 18 as the lowest others 29 will be the lowest…anyways I am getting off track here. Good luck.
Wow, this thread is getting pretty tense. So I’m going to take a little turn for the positive and offer some kind words for ad-com’s. 
Imagine having to do what these people (ad-com’s and admissions staffs) must accomplish. And it’s not like in the Harry Potter movies where a “sorting hat” is employed to make the decision. 
I have been treated with what I consider to be the highest respect by those involved in the admissions process at each of the schools to which I’ve applied, even the ones who’ve rejected me, some without even sending out a secondary. (what were they thinking?? probably the biggest mistake they’ve ever made and i’m certain they’ll lose their jobs for it, too j/k )
I have been very fortunate to have been invited to a few interviews and have been amazed at how warm and encouraging the hosts were. The admissions staff and interviewers seemed truly interested in me as an individual. I felt strongly that in each case they were looking for reasons to INclude me in their respective class of 2010 rather than exclude me from it. I was made to feel comfortable and important. They made such an impression on me in each case, that, when I’ve left at the end of these “interview days,” strangely I haven’t so much been concerned with my chances at gaining acceptance to the school, but rather what has been really important to me is that everyone I’ve met that day knows 2 things–that I am truly humbled by the fact that they would even consider my application for such an important thing and that I respect and appreciate all the work they’ve done prior to, during, and after my time with them.
My experiences have shown me that there’s a lot more to this acceptance thing than many pre-meds want to admit (no pun intended) and that the portrayal of an “adversarial-type” relationship is inaccurate–maybe it’s just a coping/defensive mechanism that we pre-meds use to deal with our own short-comings–I, however, am not a psychologist or psychiatrist or any other kind of -ist so it’s highly likely that I’m simply babbling a bunch of non-sense here. Anyway, the point being I think we really owe these people a lot of respect for an incredibly difficult and pretty thankless job (consider the ratio of acceptances to rejections in any given year). WOOHOO-GO AD-COM’S!
Happy Holidays to everyone!
Larry
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My experiences have shown me that there’s a lot more to this acceptance thing than many pre-meds want to admit (no pun intended) and that the portrayal of an “adversarial-type” relationship is inaccurate–maybe it’s just a coping/defensive mechanism that we pre-meds use to deal with our own short-comings–I, however, am not a psychologist or psychiatrist or any other kind of -ist so it’s highly likely that I’m simply babbling a bunch of non-sense here.
Larry,
You’ve convinced me; I’m going to go to my interviews (hah! as if I can even dream) wearing an “I [heart] Adcoms” button proudly pinned to my jacket!
jk -
I sincerely hope you take our comments for what they are intended to be - constructive criticism. We are all just speculating at reasons why you didn’t get accepted based on the information you have given us. We didn’t sit on the committee that voted on your application, nor have we seen your full application (LORs/transcripts/personal statement and so on). Unfortunately, adcoms don’t have crystal balls. They do the best they can. There really is just no good way to predict who will be a “good” doctor.
Good luck in your mock interview and your discussion with KCOM. Hopefully, one or both of them can give you some guidance on where you need to go with your application.
Amy
I do appreciate the constructive criticism. Amy and Judith have brought up good points that I will have to consider and will probably help others reading this thread. I just thought that maybe someone here has experienced something similar to what I am going through. I guess not, though.
I know that adcomms work hard and do a lot. They were very nice to me on my interview days. My gripe is that adcomms have given me useless feedback so far. I need to figure out what they want to see. It is absurd that the only things holding me back are a misperceived lack of excitement, and a fictional lack of healthcare experience. It would be much better if they could give me something real to work on like grades. When I asked them how much health care experience would be a bare minimum sufficient amount, they couldn’t tell me. I asked them several times in several different ways. Each time they came up blank. All I have to go on is analysis of their behavior which is highly inconsistent.
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…I know that adcomms work hard and do a lot. They were very nice to me on my interview days. My gripe is that adcomms have given me useless feedback so far. I need to figure out what they want to see. It is absurd that the only things holding me back are a misperceived lack of…
Generally speaking, admissions offices won’t give feedback on “what went wrong” until the admissions season slows down, usually in late April/early May. At that time you might call back and ask for some feedback. Since you are still in the application process, they will be reticent to talk with you until schools have finished interviewing.
Cheers,
Judy
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Generally speaking, admissions offices won’t give feedback on “what went wrong” until the admissions season slows down, usually in late April/early May. At that time you might call back and ask for some feedback. Since you are still in the application process, they will be reticent to talk with you until schools have finished interviewing.
I am not in the application process right now. My interviews were last Feb/March. They invited me to call for feedback when I met with them at a premedical conference at a local university here.
Yea i think you need the feedback. It may help you look at what you need to do to look like one of the schools want you.
Good luck.