Ok, I am having some worries

And I need honesty.
How BAD are the hours as a doctor?
I was talking to a friend in my Chem 2 class and her father was a Dr and she was going on and on about how bad the hours are, she never saw her dad growing up, her girlfriend who was in medical school had a husband who divorced her and got custody of the children, horror story after horror story.
Do doctors work THAT much that I will basically have no family like?
Also while in medical school she was saying that I will only be home to see my family for 2 hours a day.
What is is really like?
I AM a hard worked, always have been and I perfectly realize that life as a medical student and Dr was not a cake walk but I love my family and don’t want to abandon them.
Anyone else feel this way? The thing is, there is nothing else I want to do in life really.
Marilyn

Remember that everyone wants to make things seem rougher than they actually are. Sure, it’s probably long hours, but if it were so bad, why are there still people doing it who’s family life is still intact?
Remember also that some of the people who are now in med. school have never had to work a job that required 60 hours a week or 80 during crunch times. They may be used to going to class at 10 am until 2 or 3:30 p.m. with a 2 hour lunch and partying until 11 or 12 at night. Now they’re expected to show up at 03:30 to get ready for a surgery rotation and stay there until 4 or 5 in the afternoon to check the patient after surgery and do that for two months or so only to ride an on-call pager for the next two months. Is it rough? Probably. Can you make it? Sure. Will it require an adjustment in your lifestyle? Yes.
In engineering when we were doing a push to get something out the door, I worked straight through Father’s day, sometimes 14 to 16 hours a day. On several occasions I slept at my desk, took a shower on site and brushed my teeth in the bathroom at work. My wife brought me a change of underwear and a fresh shirt and off we went. She and the kids would come to work for lunch with Daddy at the cafeteria. Sometimes I’d come home for dinner and to tuck the kiddos in and then get back to work. We survived. You will too.

Also think about what fathers traditionally did 30 years ago- they brought in the paycheck, while moms took care of the kids. I have an older, male professor who was recently advising me that I would have to put medical school first, before my family. He said that he missed out on his first child’s early years because he was dedicated to his schooling. I think that’s the way men were then (and some may still be, though I think this attitude is becoming less common).





I see my kids every morning and evening. Yes, I am busy, but I was also busy when I worked full-time. SO far, my strategy has been to go to class/study during the “work day” and to study again at night after the kids are in bed. I’m also using weekend mornings/evenings to study.





I don’t buy into the thought that you have to put medical school first. I wouldn’t be doing this if I had to neglect my family.

Well, I have to admit I do not see my family that much. School starts at 8:00 and ends around 5:00 then I come home eat dinner with them and leave again to study until late at night. I also study on the weekends a lot…maybe it is just me but it takes a LOT OF TIME to study in medical school. I have also noticed that most phyisicans work A LOT and yes it is a lot of time away from your family. Just in residency you are working 80 hours per week that is a lot of time period. Residency can last from what three years to seven so yeah sure depending on what you specialize in the years can vary but still…I have also noticed that most doctors do not work 40 hours per week even those that are PT! they put in more like 60 hours per week…so just beware.

In my IT job I work at least 50 hours a week…varies but can be up to 60+ hours a week in a crunch situation. And i’m sitting here trying to think of any professional job I know where you only put in 40 hours a week, and I can’t think of any. Nowadays in the corporate world you have to work more than 40 hours if you want to get anywhere. You can put in 40 hours and go home, but come review time, forget a raise or promotion. Anyone who’s been in another career can tell you-the days of 9 to 5 and out the door are gone in many, if not most fields. But it’s still possible to have a life and work more than 40 hours. You just have to have good time management skills. I think you’ll find 60 hours is not that unusual no matter what vocation you pursue. If you can’t work more than 40 hours, it will limit you in any field you choose, unless you own your own business and set your own hours. Of course then you’ll see that you loose revenue by limiting your hours(unless you have someone to work more FOR you) so it’s a no win situation… hehe


I just wanted to let you know that you aren’t the only one that worries about this stuff. I’m a single mom with a daughter starting kindergarten. If all goes well I’ll be class of 2009. I don’t know how I’m going to make it all work except that it will be one day at a time. Until I know where I’ll be living, I can’t even start lining up help. I could go on and on about the details or listen to the horror stories but I wont. Mostly I prefer to think about all the people that succeeded with particularly difficult situations. Certainly there will be a cost to this goal. A big one. For me there would also be a cost to abandoning this dream. Its worth having the worries if it inspires you to do some solid planning. As long as I know other single mothers have done it, I’m going to do it too. I hope you make it work.
Jill

I have to wonder about the horror stories. I have to ask ‘how “present” was he when he was home’? Its obvious you love your family and they have a priority. Put yourself in the situation, you’ve just worked a HEAP of hours and you come home… Do you sit on the couch and read a paper to recharge while your spouse & kids go on about life or are you the type to ‘get in there’ and love them up as a bit of recharge time for you all? That right there is your answer. Old cliché of quality v. quantity. With some people, spending 2 hours with them is like nothing and leaves those around them feeling even MORE empty. With others, 2 hours at home can be amazingly wonderful because they are fully present. Child tells you something important in their world when you ARE at home - make a note of it in your PDA to review before you get to come home again - the simple task of remembering what you last spoke of or what they were facing - keeping that thread in the relationship, to me that’s what matters.
I am only really home about 4 hours (that my girl is awake) a day now. Work, premed reqs, commuting… During that time its imperative that she and I connect, even if its over doing the dishes or something like that, we connect. I assume its the same with a marital relationship however I have not had the greatest success there so cannot speak. I think we’ll all be fine if you keep that ‘worry’ with us just a smidge, it will keep use attentive to our families.
What other choice is there? If you cannot envision yourself doing anything else, and then you DON’T pursue it, how would that change the tone of your home life, relationships, self-image etc… I know that if my folks had put a dream OFF because of any external reason (i.e. family etc.), I know that as an adult that bit of knowledge would slay me.
I think we all worry to some degree or another, sometimes more than other times… I think we’ll all be fine if you keep that ‘worry’ with us just a smidge, it will keep use attentive to our families. I could even see me being single/no kids with just my cat having this worry at times. Medicine, any profession, is consuming – any passion that drives us is consuming. However, being the intelligent bunch we are, pondering these issues and putting a plan in place if you like, to spend that important time with the family - well I think in asking these questions we highlight just how committed we are. I wonder if those in the horror stories - the parents ever stop to ask these questions? I have heard simliar horror stories with much lesser demanding jobs… They come in all walks of life. When people stop feeding the relationship, whether it be marital or parental or whatever, it dies. How to not let that happen with a medical career? I think that’s just as hard to answer as any other field.

The one thing tha I do think is different with medicine is that even when you are at home or off medicine can still call you back. Patients do get sick and are admitted at all hours of the night and day so even if you are off at home or wherever you may still have to go back in or bring work home. I was in the military prior to medical school and worked very long hours more than 12 many days yet when I was done I was done. Not so it seems with medicine, do not get me wrong it is rewarding but it also is more consuming than other long hour jobs IMHO…medicine is almost a lifestyle…if you want more insight about this mommd is a great website where there is very candid discussion of what this profession entails.

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And I need honesty.
How BAD are the hours as a doctor?
I was talking to a friend in my Chem 2 class and her father was a Dr and she was going on and on about how bad the hours are, she never saw her dad growing up, her girlfriend who was in medical school had a husband who divorced her and got custody of the children, horror story after horror story.
Do doctors work THAT much that I will basically have no family like?
Also while in medical school she was saying that I will only be home to see my family for 2 hours a day.
What is is really like?
I AM a hard worked, always have been and I perfectly realize that life as a medical student and Dr was not a cake walk but I love my family and don’t want to abandon them.
Anyone else feel this way? The thing is, there is nothing else I want to do in life really.
Marilyn


Hi Marilyn
When I attended medical school, the hours were pretty long and I did spend a great deal of time away from home. Medicine is a very demanding mistress and even when I was home, I was doing lots of studying. There is no way to get around having to put in the hours to master the material.
When I reached third year, there were some nights when I was on overnight call. I would come in at 0700h to pre-round on patients and leave at noon the next day after all of my work was done. Many nights I was too busy to call because there was one thing after another and I was lucky to grab a couple of hours of sleep here and there.
Since I chose surgery, I knew that I would be spending long hours at the hospital honing my craft. Many of my colleagues dismissed surgery for that very reason in that they did not want to put in the hours. Surgery has to be done in a hospital setting.
Even with the 80-hour work week, you spend far more time studying and working at your job. When I was in my PGY-1 year, the hours were unlimited but I was able to have plenty of downtime to get my studying done while I was on call. Now, I am physically home more but I am far too busy at the hospital with the limited hours to study so most of my home time is spent with the books and most of my hospital time is spent with the scalpel. If you believe that your study days are over once you are done with medical school, you are sadly mistaken. There is so much to read and keep up with.
What I did finally realize is that being at home and being with the family is not a matter of length of time but quality time. We make sure that we take time for each other. Sure, there are less demanding specialites than surgery but they were not for me and I couldn’t make them fit for me. I am not the kind of person who can just “settle” for someting that I don’t totally enjoy. The long hours of medical school just would not have been worth it if I didn’t have a job at the end that I totally love.
I am more intolerant of people wasting my time these days because I have set fairly high priorties. I set time aside to spend with my family which gives me something to look forward to.
Is all of this easy? No, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. Medicine is probably never going to be 9-5 even if you are a dematologist. There is just too much to be done. The funny thing for me is that I look at a 60-hour work week and it looks like a vacation.
Medicine versus family is not black and white. If you are pursuing one, you don’t “abandon” the other but you do have to understand that once you undertake medicine, it is very, very demanding of your time.
Natalie

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In my IT job I work at least 50 hours a week…varies but can be up to 60+ hours a week in a crunch situation. unless you own your own business and set your own hours. Of course then you’ll see that you loose revenue by limiting your hours(unless you have someone to work more FOR you) so it’s a no win situation… hehe


My Fiance’ is in IT, runs his own company, has call 24/7, and he also works at least 60 hours/week. Last week he worked over 80 (including all weekend) thanks to 'world events".
When it comes to the number of hours a certain career requires, I think it’s more related to how much money you want to make. EVERYONE I know that makes over 150K/year works at least 50 hours/week no matter what they do for a living

Yeah but in residency alone we are talking 80 hrs/week for a minimum of what three years? that is a loooong time at mininal pay. After that sure you may only be in the hospital for let’s say 60 hours but most folks also put in a lot of time at home…meaning the doctoring job is not done when you leave the hospital/office…

Marilyn, there’s just no way anyone can really project for you what YOUR experience will be like. Will it be demanding? Yes. Will it be a strain on your family? Yes again. Will it be MORE demanding or MORE of a strain than some other career choice you might make? Dunno the answer to that!
Having done my time as a SAHM and in a job where part-time really was part-time, there’s no question but that changing to studying and practicing medicine is a huge difference. For me it coincides with children growing older and moving out, and my husband also starting school so that he’s never home either.
I’ll be honest, I don’t know how my classmates with young children did it - but they seemed to manage. I do know that I was adamant about making sure I spent time with my husband and kids when I was in school. I set aside weekends (e.g. right after a block of tests) where I did NOT do school stuff. I travelled to kids’ things, e.g. parents day at college, skating competitions for my high school daughter. For the first two years, anyway, I was able to miss classes or work around my schedule so that I could do important family stuff when needed.
Third year of medical school does not afford you much free time, but it IS there. Some rotations won’t have night call or weekend duties - nice. Your school may give you some elective blocks or free time that you can arrange to coincide with family stuff if you’re lucky. Fourth year you’ll have some demanding rotations and some much less strenuous ones, and definitely more free time - but the extra time in your schedule is intended to give you space for travelling on your residency interviews.
Now I’m an intern and there is NO free time. I sent my daughter off to college without me to help her move in - that was very sad. (fortunately she is only two hours away so on my first free day I went down to see her, but still I felt like a truly crappy mom) I get up before daylight, get home for a late dinner, collapse into bed and start the same thing over again… unless I’m on call, in which case I get up before daylight, stay there all night without sleep, get home the next afternoon and on at least one memorable occasion recently, collapsed into bed at 5pm and did not get up until 5am the next day.
This would be sooooo hard with little kids, but I know people who are doing it. Basically they are just making sure that every moment not dedicated to work is dedicated to their family.
Like Nat said, I’ve gotten very jealous of my time. I’m a lousy friend because I just do not have time to talk to or see my friends. If I’m lucky I send them e-mail notes occasionally… and I am pretty sure that they just do not Get It but I don’t have any leftover energy to fret about it right now. I hope that we will still be friends when I am done with this year.
I am not even a good daughter or sister at the moment, which is sad. My mother is in treatment again for lymphoma and having a tough time. There are days when I don’t even have a chance to call her and see how she’s doing… or check in with my sisters to see if THEY have talked to her. I know for a fact that my mom is keeping information from me about her experiences so that I won’t worry. This also makes me sad.
All I can do is plug away and do my best. The amazing thing is, after listening to this sad litany, you’d figure I’m embittered and sorry about my career choice, no? Well, actually I LOVE what I do and find work to be truly energizing and rewarding. So I try to do the best I can in all spheres of my life, not beat myself up too bad for my lapses, and try to get satisfaction from what I’m able to do well… and will never make a lot of money doing it, either, but that’s okay.
Finally, a great thing about medicine is its flexibility. Virtually every specialty can be set up in such a way that you can carve out time as desired. Primary care: in a group practice you’ll only take call once every several nights, maybe one weekend out of the month, and you might set up your practice so that your hospitalized patients are cared for by an in-patient service so you don’t do admissions in the middle of the night. Or maybe you’ll decide to work in a clinic or urgent care setting where you’ve got ER-like hours. Lots of specialties will limit your need to be available outside office hours or take call (they’re the ones that are the toughest to get into!), such as derm, ENT, urology, radiology. You can have a job that has shift-like hours if you work in emergency medicine or anesthesiology.
Bottom line is, you do have to be convinced that it is worth it; your family needs to be convinced along with you. It’s good to do this questioning and soul-searching.
Mary

How much can technology alleviate this problem. I see PC workstations all over the hospital where I’m volunteering; is it common to shoot off a couple of emails during 10 minutes of downtime? Also cell phones–are you able to leave it on and be sporadically accessible to your family, or do you feel pretty much cut off during work hours?

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Yeah but in residency alone we are talking 80 hrs/week for a minimum of what three years? that is a loooong time at mininal pay. After that sure you may only be in the hospital for let’s say 60 hours but most folks also put in a lot of time at home…meaning the doctoring job is not done when you leave the hospital/office…


In the 2 years i’ve worked around Path residents, I have yet to see one work more than 60 hours/week! And that’s rare week!
Also, most of the residents I know make at least 45K. Maybe it’s me, but that certainily seems like a decent wage.

45K is a pretty decent wage assuming you can defer your loans. If you made it through med school financially and you can’t squeeze by on that, then something’s wrong. I’ve known people who worked that much for that kind of money without any guarantees of a big salary or better lifestyle when they’re done. You have to pay your dues.

45K sounds like a lot - most of the resident salaries I’ve seen in major metropolitan areas have been high 30s. Ironically I’ve seen much better wages for residency positions in small towns - because they have a harder time attracting candidates. In the big cities where the cost of living is higher, the residents get paid LESS. Sucks but there ya go.
If path residents have to do a prelim year in medicine they are going to be subject to the same hours as any other medicine resident - meaning some months will be right up to the 80-hour limit and others will be easier.
My availability for personal stuff varies a lot. I rarely check e-mail except in the middle of the night; for one thing there aren’t that many computers and they’re all in great demand. (I will admit to being mightily annoyed at a student who was checking e-mail when I needed to get on the computer to check some labs… there is a lot of pressure to keep computer use to strictly business only because there aren’t enough stations.)
I do keep my cell phone on (vibrate) and with me but sometimes it’s hard to even get time to check for messages. One great thing about my hospital is the “SpectraLink” radio phones that work inside the hospital - each team usually has one or two and so often I have custody of one phone - I can call my kids, husband, mom, whoever while walking down the hall or even in the stairwells or elevators. Can’t do that with a cell phone because 1, reception is lousy and 2, you’re not supposed to be using your cell phone inside the hospital although recently I heard a rumor that they are going to give up on trying to enforce that because no one pays attention to it and they haven’t been able to show that it actually does interfere with the telemetry.
So I’m not completely cut off from the outside world but sometimes it feels that way!
I think that the hours of a resident are no worse than many others’ jobs, as some people have said. I do think that the intensity of the work is often greater. I don’t know too many people in IT who complain that they didn’t have time to go to the bathroom or get lunch even if they were working ridiculous hours. If nothing else they were able to join with other co-workers and knock off a pizza at their desks, but in my job I can’t be munching pizza as I examine someone or write notes…
Right now I am contemplating the need to schedule a dentist appointment. Not to sound stupid, but there is no time in my schedule for that. Yes, I can take sick leave, but in general it is meant for if you are REALLY SICK. I haven’t figured out what I am going to do about this just yet.
Mary

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I do think that the intensity of the work is often greater. I don’t know too many people in IT who complain that they didn’t have time to go to the bathroom or get lunch even if they were working ridiculous hours. If nothing else they were able to join with other co-workers and knock off a pizza at their desks, but in my job I can’t be munching pizza as I examine someone or write notes…



All I can say about this is that when your IT job involves National Security, it gets pretty intense ESPECIALLY during war times.
I guess my point is that there are actually some jobs out here just as demanding and nail biting as medicine so if a person is opting out of medicine for this reason, they may want to rethink their career choice and follow thier passion.

To some extent, it is what you make it.
My father was a surgeon, and he reguarly put in 10-12 hour days.
Some of his friends (mostly non-cutters) on the other hand, worked 9-5, and never on weekends.
And I met one ER doctor who lived in a luxury RV and had a contract with a nothern hospital in the summer, and an Arizona hospital in the winter.

I do not feel like I’m neglecting my boyfriend or my parents during the full-time job / organic chemistry / physics crunch of this semester. They are adults and can adjust to my day-to-day presence being a lot less (again, kudos to you guys who are parents!) I do worry about my health though! I was the cliché NYC gymrat before starting the premed process, running races and lifting five times a week. Now I hardly exercise once a week because I feel like whenever I’m not at work I should have my textbooks open in front of me. I wonder whether people in internship and other more demanding stages of their MD education find time to exercise at all!





PS Unrelated to all this: I LOVE ORGANIC CHEMISTRY!!! I think it’s totally fascinating and elegant and beautiful. Please don’t hit me!





Matt

I loved O-Chem, too. I just hated the exams.
Seriously, moving the electrons around and using synthesis to figure out how to make the molecules was cooler than snow. But memorizing the reagents and reactants and having the reaction mechanisms memorized forwards and backwards was a pain, and I never DID have a real mental mind-map of how it all fit together.
I hope the enjoyment stays with you. It is a cool, cool subject, and the labs were wicked fun.