A friend of my father’s who used to be on a medical school admissions committee gave me some advice when I first started out. He gave me a lot of the standard advice - shadow, volunteer, get as close to a 4.0 as possible, shower regularly. He gave me one key piece of advice: he told me that some schools consider your Organic Chemistry grade to be a good indicator of how you will perform in medical school. He told me to work my butt off in that class.
I had no aptitude for the material whatsoever - it nearly killed me and ruined my relationship - not just with my fiance, even my cats were acting edgy. I worked hard, slept little, stressed lots, snapped at everyone and got my As.
Now that I’ve been on the interviewing circuit, I like to look at what different interviewers highlight on my application. I noticed that nearly every single one of them had my Organic Chemistry grades highlighted, but none of the other science grades. I can only conclude that my father’s friend’s advice was right, so I thought I’d share it with you.
Hi Skeeter,
Congrats on your “A’s” in Organic Chemistry…I’m taking it next fall.
I think one of the reasons is that it is probably one of the most difficult of the prereqs required. If you are able to do well in OChem, which requires a lot of study and preparation, Biochem which seems to be a very intense and difficult class due to all of the different pathways etc, will be a class that you will be successful in as well.
Come on now Kriss…Orgo is no more difficult than Physics or Gen Chem. Just new vocabulary and the concept of mechanisms to learn. I’m not saying it’s easy just not any more difficult than anything else. It is weighed heavily by adcoms…I got the same advice that skeeter did. “Out of any class to get an “A”, orgo 1 and 2 are definitely it.”
I mean in Maryland Orgo is a freshman level science class. Dr Klein from JHU wrote a great pair of books…“Organic Chem 1 & 2 as a second language”…check them out. Gen Chem is all about math and Org is all about mechanisms. M&M. 
Maybe not for you, Crooz. For me it was hard as hell - especially Orgo 2. My brain hates remembering those mechanisms.
Well, not having taken Physics yet and worried about that class…I can see your point there. However, before even getting into Organic Chemistry, you have to take a year of General Chemistry. While not an easy class, I do not think that it is as difficult as Organic Chemistry. Also, Organic Chemistry for many schools is not a freshman class, but a sophomore class since in your freshman year most students are having to take General Chem. Now if one has come right from high school and did AP Chemistry, yes, Organic could be a freshman class…but I’m sure that we all agree…high school for many of us was many years ago.
Now ask me the end of next Fall after I’ve taken both Ochem and Physics I, and my answer may change.
The question is…have you taken Organic yet?
Also, if you not…I said that Organic was one of the most difficult…not the most difficult…so yes, some of the others could be eequally as difficult.
Organic Chem provides a perspective a little different from most classes, I think.
“Second language” is a good description of the basics, and volume of the mechanisms and behaviors to memorize could make it a bit harder than many other classes.
What really sets it apart, though, is that you need to be able to apply what you’ve learned to situations you’ve never seen before. Compare that with, say, Neurobio, which forces loads of memorization - but doesn’t require the creative applications.
For me, while I spent more time on Organic than about anything else, it made sense; for me, Physics was much more conceptually hazardous.
- croooz Said:
I mean in Maryland Orgo is a freshman level science class. Dr Klein from JHU wrote a great pair of books...."Organic Chem 1 & 2 as a second language"...check them out. Gen Chem is all about math and Org is all about mechanisms. M&M.
I gotta disagree, Crooz. First of all it's hard to believe that pre-med organic is a freshman level class anywhere, since generally there's at least a year of prereq gen-chem. Secondly organic really is another language and just as some people can adapt to new spoken languages more readily than others, perhaps some folks take to the spatial concepts and elegance of organic chemistry more readily. But for most of us mere mortals, organic is NOT easy and it can take a lot of re-arranging of brain structure to get it to fit.
And having been on an AdCom, yes - the organic grade gets looked at a little closer. I was willing to "forgive" a B in o-chem if all else looked pretty good. In committee discussions, someone whose grades were a little sketchy could earn a boost by getting a good o-chem grade. For most people in most places, organic is HARD.
Finally, it actually MATTERS. I am not sure I could explain S1 vs. S2 reactions any more, but the broad outlines of organic chemistry actually do form an underpinning for what I do in my daily work. Not consciously, but organic is part of my language now.
Mary
- Mary Renard Said:
Don't take my word for it....here it is from the UMD Science in the Evening website.
- www.scienceintheevening.umd.edu Said:
The Chemistry Department at the University of Maryland is initiating a
new chemistry sequence that will better integrate the study of chemistry
with the study of biology. The new sequence will be initiated Fall 2005;
General Chemistry I and lab: CHEM131 & CHEM132 Pre-requisite placement in MATH113 or MATH115
Organic Chemistry I and lab: CHEM231 & CHEM232 Pre-requisite C or better in CHEM131 & CHEM132
Organic Chemistry II and lab: CHEM241 & CHEM242 Pre-requisite C or better in CHEM231 & CHEM232
General & Analytical Chemistry & lab: CHEM271 & CHEM272 Pre-requisite C
or better in CHEM241 & CHEM242-First offered Spring 2007
CHEM113 will be offered for the last time in Spring 2006. After that semester
students who have already completed CHEM103 but not CHEM113 will be
placed directly into Organic I, and will take General & Analytical Chem
after Organic II. This sequence of four chemistry courses plus lab will
satisfy the chemistry requirement for medial school, graduate school,
and other professional schools.
- Mary Renard Said:
- Mary Renard Said:
- Mary Renard Said:
Not sure why the emphasis on "matters". I never said it didn't matter or implied....or did I? I didn't go back to read so you'll have to forgive me. From what I've been told the concepts of organic are the only ones that you carry with you into medical school and beyond.
I didn't mean to imply anyone was stupid, dumb, blockheaded, slow, or anything else. My point is not to give any course that much power to frighten you. I know of trads who have taken Orgo at CC and then a 4 year university without putting the CC grade on the AMCAS application. All this because of the perceived impossibility to pass orgo on the first try. I know of 3 people who were having trouble with Chem 2 and gave up their dream of medicine because if Chem2 was killing them how much more would Orgo. It seems to be a trend that those who had trouble in Chem don't have the same in Orgo. Maybe it's a usefulness thing...maybe it's a host of other reasons......I just don't want people to quit before they've even tried. The post that Kriss presented was basically what I heard from those who quit. I don't want to see that happen because of a perception. It's ain't gonna be a breeze but it also isn't going to be like grabbing smoke with your bare hands.
I REALLY loved organic chemistry in all its elegance. By April of the two-semester sequence, you can just close your eyes, and imagine the molecular interactions in three-dimensional geometry. Tip for New York City postbaccs, I really recommend Vernon Box at CUNY-City College.
Is it hard? Yes, it’s mighty hard. Is the lab a long-ass night at school? Yes, it is indeed a long, tedious night at school. HOWEVER, please don’t be phobic. The subject is completely manageable with PRACTICE. I have never met a single person who had success in o-chem without lots of practice. Trying to just memorize facts (like in bio) or formulae (like in cookbook MCAT physics) is MADNESS, and you’ll stare at the rings and molecules on that test paper and not recognize anything.
The homework you are assigned is the bare minimum. If you really want that A, do every problem in the book. I got the As and a 10 on the Biological MCAT and I am No Genius.
No to O-Phobia!!!
Crooz -
According to what you quoted from UMD, Organic is NOT a freshman level class - it’s a 200 level class with general chemistry as a prerequisite. I appear to be missing something in your argument.
I have heard rumor of a few schools that will let you take Organic concurrently with gen chem and a few that will let you start Organic after the first semester of gen chem. I don’t ever recall hearing of schools that let you take Organic before gen chem, but it’s possible. They would just have to include some basics that are typically learned in gen chem in their ochem course.
Gen chem and organic really are quite different courses. I have heard many people say they liked organic better than gen chem. It’s not unusual that people find one or the other easier. I agree with you that people shouldn’t give up their dreams just because they struggled in gen chem - they might find they have a more natural aptitude for organic.
Whether or not organic is really a tougher subject than gen chem is indeed debatable. Unfortunately, many institutions MAKE organic tougher. It is not uncommon at OSU for class AVERAGES on exams in ochem to be in the 30 to 40th percentiles. Is the material really that much tougher than gen chem or is it more in how it’s taught and tested?
Personally, I definitely found the organic labs to be much more difficult. It’s hard for me to objectively compare whether or not organic itself was more difficult of a subject for me than general chemistry because of the way I took it (the entire year with labs over an 8 week summer session) made it more difficult. I do know that the problem solving technique is more difficult. I would compare inorganic to organic as similar to the differences between algebra and geometry. I can see striking similarities between solving a proof in geometry and solving problems in organic.
Anyways - interesting debate. 
You take Gen Chem 1 and then start Orgo 1 & 2 and finish off with Analytical chem. There is no Gen Chem 2. So a freshman will take Gen Chem in the Fall and start Orgo 1 in the Spring of their freshman year…hence a freshman level course. Perhaps not in number, as in 200 vs 100, but you begin to take Organic after only 1 semester of gen. chem so 18 year olds are taking Orgo… 
Organic chemistry is a huge, complex field of study that takes a lot of time to begin to learn. In my opinion, it should be a four semester course to properly master the concepts. I know many people, myself included, who needed to take it twice. No one should view it lightly. It’s easy to crash and burn in organic chem; if you get behind by a week or two, or a day or two if it’s summer school, it is next to impossible to get caught up again.
I know of several people who took the summer school class at a different school, then took it “for real” in the fall, neglecting to report the summer grade. It’s a dishonest and foolish practice that can get you booted from med school or residency, yet people continue to do it–the rewards are rich.
The better, and more ethical, approach would be to take four months to study the orgo book on your own, cover to cover, working all the problems, and then go into the fall semester having a clue. Unfortunately most of us don’t have that kind of time on our hands. But it definitely pays to prep for the course. I recommend the aforementioned “Organic Chemistry as a Second Language” book to help you master basic concepts like arrow pushing, and try to read the first 5-10 chapters in the text so that you’ll get off to a running start and develop some confidence early on. And, as Matt points out, practice is the key to completing the course successfully.
Organic chemistry is quite do-able but you need to think of it more like a climb up Mt. Everest than a little day hike in the woods. The more planning and careful execution you can achieve, the greater your chances of success.
- croooz Said:
- www.scienceintheevening.umd.edu Said:
The Chemistry Department at the University of Maryland is initiating a
new chemistry sequence that will better integrate the study of chemistry
with the study of biology. The new sequence will be initiated Fall 2005;
General Chemistry I and lab: CHEM131 & CHEM132 Pre-requisite placement in MATH113 or MATH115
Organic Chemistry I and lab: CHEM231 & CHEM232 Pre-requisite C or better in CHEM131 & CHEM132
Organic Chemistry II and lab: CHEM241 & CHEM242 Pre-requisite C or better in CHEM231 & CHEM232
General & Analytical Chemistry & lab: CHEM271 & CHEM272 Pre-requisite C
or better in CHEM241 & CHEM242-First offered Spring 2007
CHEM113 will be offered for the last time in Spring 2006. After that semester
students who have already completed CHEM103 but not CHEM113 will be
placed directly into Organic I, and will take General & Analytical Chem
after Organic II. This sequence of four chemistry courses plus lab will
satisfy the chemistry requirement for medial school, graduate school,
and other professional schools.
How can this be true then? How can you have a Gen Chem I if you don't have a Gen Chem II? Shouldn't they just call it General Chemistry and leave off the number?
Also, most med schools require a year of General Chemistry, not a half year. Does your analytical chemistry balance this out?
I would agree, Crooz, that Big Bad Scary O-Chem shouldn’t be used as something to scare off those who are kinda hesitating about whether to take the big plunge. (I think that’s the gist of what you’re saying.) I LOVED O-chem. It was the coolest class ever. I worked my freaking a$$ off in that class and was rewarded with A’s - and although yeah, I worked my butt off at everything post-bacc and got lots of A’s, it was that o-chem grade that made me the proudest by far.
I didn’t mean to imply that you were saying that o-chem doesn’t matter, but your original post seemed a bit breezy about the importance of it as viewed by pre-meds and adcoms. No one should take it lightly or think that it is not a class that will eat up all their spare time and then some. To say “It’s a freshman-level class,” seems deceptive to me because in my own experience, I never encountered anything else like it as a freshman OR sophomore in college. That’s all I meant to say.
Mary
- Krisss17 Said:
Also, most med schools require a year of General Chemistry, not a half year. Does your analytical chemistry balance this out?
Not sure what the problem is. You have a year of chemistry. Half is gen chemistry the other is gen chem on steroids.