Hi all,
This forum is so awesome! I just found it and really like what I’ve seen so far. Thanks for being a part of it!
So here’s the million dollar question: pursue a PhD or MD?
An introduction and a little about my background: I’m now 34 years old, have had some experience in my career with both health care and research. I worked in neuroscience labs in both academia and biotech, and also worked as a nurse in the Army and in a teaching hospital. I recently began a position as a surgical neurophysiologist, which I really love! But, it is making me highly envious of the “baby docs” and residents that I see in the operating room.
I have applied to both PhD and MD programs in the past. I earned my MS two years ago, and did stellar in my program, and have one published paper (first author) in Neurobiology of Disease, and a second manuscript awaiting submission. My undergrad performance was a bit hindered by my obligation to the Army (it was also during 9/11 and several years after) and I worked night shifts in the hospital to support myself, so my grades weren’t fantastic. MCAT scores…good, not excellent. I would retake it with a professional prep course if I were to apply again.
The other issue is that I worked for a neurologist at a top university as a research associate; she was also my graduate mentor. I later found out that, while she had told me that my recommendations were excellent as were all my evals, when I finally asked to see them, it turned out that she had thrown me under the bus after 5 years of very long hours, pub, writing grants, conference talks…long story short, she was trying to keep me in the lab because she needed my work for grants and pubs and intentionally kept me out of grad school and med school. NIGHTMARE!!! I had no idea that this actually happened, but those of you thinking you’ll do research a couple years, get a paper out, then apply…make sure the PI has a track record of supporting applications and that their former students have gone on to do great things! My other recommendations from renowned faculty were excellent. But, I feel like I wasted 5 years of my life and a lot of rounds of applications.
So now I know that I really love research and discovery, but after working in the OR a few months, I already have the burning desire to try to get into medical school again. I’m worried that I might be too old for the residency of my choice (neurosurgery, neurology, possibly psych, or neuropathology); I’m concerned about paying off the loans; and I’m worried that I may not be able to do as much research as an MD as I would otherwise, although that is balanced by the notion that MDs will always be able to find good jobs, where as neuroscience PhDs…not so much.
I’d love to hear from anyone who has been down this road before, and made a decision (later in life) with which they are happy between the PhD or MD/DO option.
Best wishes,
Corey
Hi Corey!
At this stage (and age) of the game, I really don’t “do doubt” anymore as it relates to my career goals, so I say if you want the MD followed by a research career, go for it!
Thanks for the encouragement PathDr2b! Btw, is that an H&E stain in your profile picture? It looks very nice and clear. I have also enjoyed your blog posts. Wish you all the best!
- NeuroP Said:
Thanks NeuroP!
I'm also interested in Neuropath having done some TBI research in a pervious position.
My avatar is actually a Mucicarmine stain of kidney for mucin.
All the best to you too!
NeuroP-
I am currently in a Neuroscience PhD program and am quitting in order to go to med school (for better or for worse; wise choice or not…all discussed and dissected elsewhere ;)). I think that for me, while I really like research and hope to continue with it, I can do that plus have the clinical exposure and contact that I want as a MD. I am in a program at a medical school and a lot of PIs are MDs. They get the best of both worlds: they can see/treat patients, have access to a clinical population for their research, and can also set up a lab and mentor students. It might even interest you to do a MD/PhD program (usually 7 years).
So IMO, if you have any desire to work with patients AND do research either go the MD or MD/PhD route. Just doing a PhD doesn’t give you the same options. But if you don’t really care about the patient contact and really love pure research, then do the PhD!
Also, there is a wonderful blog here: http://oldpremeds.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/6… written by a nontrad who went to Mayo for med school and got accepted into a neurosugery residency in Oregon. He did quite a bit of research during medical school and believe there is quite a bit of research built into his residency as well. A very fun and informative blog to read…might even be able to ask him some questions if he’s still visits the forum?
NeuroP:
Your situation reminds me somewhat of mine- the important circumstances are different, but the decision is the same.
Right now I’m working on an MS in a high-tempo coag lab. I’m running some experiments on one project at the moment that should result in a co-authorship when we publish (probably before Christmas). I’m also running a project of my own that’ll probably turn into two first-authorships in the next year or so- one for the correlative relationship in humans between an enzyme and a phenotype, the other to look for it as a causal relationship using transgenic mice. Might get a second co-authorship as well if my lab partner needs help with her experiments next Spring. I definitely hear you on the love of research- I have that too! And I understand the desire to practice medicine as well. I’ve been trained for asceptic surgery on mice for my project- suiting up, scrubbing in, whole nine yards. It’s awesome. I really want to be able to do this with people, and in cases where the patient is intended to live and prosper (I’m doing non-survival surgery). I love doing research… but I just feel like there’s a big part missing if I’m just making discoveries to enable other professionals to save and improve lives.
My impression is that you know where you want to go (research-active physician) and just need to figure out how to get there. Generally, the MD will give you almost all the options you’d have with a PhD, and a few more. Yes, you can do research with a PhD, but you can also do one with an MD. Actually, MDs are usually present in most research organizations- you just may not realize this if you’ve never worked in industry. They’re also generally higher in the pecking order than PhDs. I actually know someone who plans to go to medical school who isn’t even interested in practicing- he just wants to do research and expects better opportunities that way. The only path you’d be ruling out with an MD rather than a PhD, that I have coming to mind, is a straight-up academic position at a university. Most teaching MDs are also practicing MDs, at least at my university. And if you have ambitions involving a big office with a big desk, you might be out-competed by MD-PhDs having an MD alone.
If you want both degrees, that’s certainly a possibility. You can either do an MD-PhD, or do them separately. A joint MD-PhD program is the most efficient way. All schools handle this differently. At mine, you simply apply to both the MD and PhD programs (and note that you’re applying as an MD-PhD candidate). However, realize these are incredibly competitive, even by med school standards. Doing the degrees separately is also a possibility. As a measure of practicality, I recommend doing the PhD first. You said you want to be a clinician- doing a PhD after your MD will require putting your clinical work on hold for five years. There isn’t anything wrong with the PhD-then-MD path, except that it’ll take about 2-3 years more than the MD-PhD path. Just be prepared to defend your past career decisions in front of an ADCOM.
I think the biggest issue, though, isn’t just taking advice- it’s taking advice and figuring out how to make it work best for you. I remember asking for advice on how to get into med school when I first came here. Given my undergrad GPA is a 2.52 as AMCAS will calculate it, the advice I generally got was to do post-bac work to prove my competence. Is this the best advice for a person in my position? Yes. The best advice for me? No. My BS doesn’t really make me employable in today’s market. If I did a post-bac and still didn’t get in to med school, I’d be up shit creek with the amount of debt I have and no chance of finding a job that would pay well enough make payments on student loans and rent at the same time. So I’m working on my academic career. Once my fiancee gets through pharmacy school, I’ll have the financial wherewithal to accept that risk.