This is my first post on here and hopefully I don’t get flamed for not using the search button more effectively to answer some of my questions
However, I believe that my situation is unique and there might be some special advice for it
Background:
26 year old male. (Bday was December 10! wooo)
AA - Onondaga Community College (2001-2003)
GPA: 3.67
BA - Rockefeller College of Public Affairs and Policy (2004-2005)
Public Policy, dual major
GPA: 3.89
MPA - Rockefeller College of Public Affairs and Policy (2004-2005)
Master’s of Public Administration, specialization in Health Care and Risk Management
GPA: 3.67
MSHSA - SUNY Institute of Technology (2006-Present)
Master’s of Science in Health Services Administration
GPA: 3.57
(the only thing standing between me and graduation is an internship/AIT program, for which the school does not place you and you are entirely responsible for designing and finding a preceptor… might I add that the school is entirely online so I am here in NJ and the school is in Utica, NY - making it difficult to network.)
My mom has been involved in health care for the last 45 years; serving as a DON for the last 20 - gaining a reputation on the East Coast as one of the best. I have ALWAYS wanted to get involved in health care. My first stab at it was getting into politics (public policy degree) and receiving a Fellowship with the NYS Senate (undergrad and grad) working for Senators Marty Golden (Chair of the Aging Committee) and Michael Balboni (Chair of the Homeland Security Committee).
I slowly realized the nature of politics (in my last semester as an Ugrad student) and became apathetic. So I decided to get my MPA and focus on health care (as advized by NYS DOH) - taking the core courses I needed to sit for my licensing exam and take an AIT program in order to be a LTC Admin. Well, as it turns out, the DOH changed minimum requirements and what schools would be able to offer courses in NY and our very own SUNY School of Public Health (where I was taking courses through via an agreement between them and my college) did not count.
Now I REALLY wanted to be a health care administrator - so I found a good program within the SUNY system and went for it. Fast forward to today, and I am not sure if this is truly where I want to be.
Scratch that, I know it is not where I want to be. I love the elderly. I love the idea of being able to rehabilitate people, or ease one’s transition from this mortal place… but I don’t love the regulations, the unions, and the red-tape one must navigate in order to make a difference… beyond all that, I must have sipped on the kool-aid my advisor fed me at SUNYIT in thinking that an administrator can have a profound impact on residents… while this is true on different levels, it really isn’t what I want - I want to make a direct impact on lives.
Now, my mom has been telling me since I was getting into politics that I should just go to medical school - as I was going to end up there anyway… She was right. She warned me that even though having an MSHSA is still getting me into health care on some level, it isn’t where I truly want to be. So over this Christmas, I decided that I want to serve the public as a doctor.
At first, I thought - “hey, just go become an NP… take your sciences and find an accelerated program that combines clinical with higher learning and bang out the NCLEX and NP boards.”
Then I read a blog. One of the reasons that I wanted to be an administrator is because I feel some compulsion to “know it all.” Not to be a know-it-all, but to try and understand everything working in a system and to make decisions based on that knowledge to positively impact said system… I suppose one of my many faults is that I love to learn… As such, being an NP would be rewarding… I could make a large impact on many lives over the next 40+ years I will be working for… But I feel like I would regret not going “all the way,” because everytime I would have to default to a second year med student for advice would break my heart - fully knowing that could be me, if I only went for it.
If there is any possibility of regret, don’t do it. So NP is out of the question, leaving only MD as the path with least regret. So I have to take my chances and try for medical school.
I have absolutely NO SCIENCES. In high school, I didn’t have the money to pay for AP credit in my biology, chemistry, physics, and calc III classes… and because I wasn’t emancipated, I didn’t qualify for the assistance either. In high school, I never scored below a 95 in biology (advanced placement class to boot) and chemistry was still rather strong (scored the equivalent of 90 on the regents)… In physics, I turned a failing grade at mid-term (just skipped class all the time) to an 89 at the completion of the course (never scored below a 90 on a test, and almost perfectly aced the regents exam).
Now, I need my sciences to apply to med school. What should I do?
Attend Passaic County Community College
a) matriculated into a premed program; or
b) take them non-matriculated
Attend Rutgers
a) matriculated as an undergrad in premed; or
b) taken in a post-bacc program
Attend CUNY
a) matriculated as an undergrad in premed; or
b) taken in a post-bacc program
Now, since I spent the last semester trying to find a preceptor in NJ/NY (relatively close to my fiance) so I can get out of my MSHSA, I wasn’t enrolled in classes… meaning, my deferrment period came up - so I need to get into classes ASAP.
I could try and get into the three above colleges (it is clearly past normal acceptance dates) with varying degrees of difficulty (the Senator I worked for went to CUNY and has a hand in securing their funding). Is it really better to take the prereqs at a university?
Would I be able to take some at a community college now and then transfer them into a university?
Should I apply to a school as if I am intending on completing a premed program and stop the minute I get accepted into a medical school? (can I apply/be accepted if I have all my prereqs done, even though I didn’t complete the premed program?)
Is that sneaky or underhanded to enroll in a program of study then cut out like that?
Do non-degree programs like the post-bacc stuff offer financial aid (stafford loan)? (can’t pay for this out of pocket)
Would any other science coursework help me be better prepared for the MCAT? Or will Human Biology, Chemistry I&II, and Physics be enough to get me through it?
I REALLY want to complete my MSHSA, can I be enrolled in that program (the internship I have to complete has a class component where you just log your hours and blog about the experience) and enrolled at another university?
I was also considering the time table of all this.
If I am able to take:
Biology (4 + 1 lab),
Chemistry (4 + 1 lab),
and Physics (4 + 1 lab) this semester; and,
Organic Chemistry (4 + 1 lab),
Anatomy and Physiology I (4 + 1 lab),
and Calculus (4) in the Fall; then,
what would I do in spring of 2010, other than take my MCATS? Is there going to come a point where I will just be playing a waiting game with medical school - where I will be in academic limbo that is, my student loans will need to be paid but I won’t be a student anymore? Its not uncommon to have all your prereqs, apply to med school, then have to take a job to pay back your other student loans while waiting to hear back about med school right?
The way I see it, I can have my prereqs done between this spring and the fall - OR I could take the summer courses offered at PCCC and have it done between now and the summer. But that wouldn’t matter correct? Since I would still need to take my MCAT and apply to medical school - and from what I understand if I apply to medical school this June, and I was accepted, I wouldn’t be starting school until the following year?
I am sorry I am all over the place with questions, really I am just so nervous and scatter-brained at the moment thinking about all this.
Bottom line - I see 2 semesters to complete the prereqs (this spring and next fall), take the MCATS in spring of 2010, apply to med school in 2010, get accepted and start med school in 2011, finish med school in 2015 (and because I wish to be primary care, we really need them) I will be out an on my own in 2018 - 9 and 1/2 years from now… does that sound about right?
Is becoming a doctor at 34/35 old? Will medical schools look at my age negatively (I’ve read posts about 35 y/o starting med school and having trouble)? I will be 27 when I take my MCATS and I am ready to apply to medical school… please tell me this is not that old!
Again sorry for the length of this post and how its all over the place… I really appreciate this forum and any advice you all have to offer.
Should I enroll into a nursing program - ie, AAS? and start going for my RN? That way, if I don’t get into a medical school in 2010, I can continue on towards an MSN… and if I don’t get it in 2011, I can still stick with the NP route… and if in 2012 I don’t get it, I can work as an NP and pay back loans… and so on?
At the most basic level, I want something to fall back on… if I am an RN with my MSHSA, the opportunities of landing a job are 100% better than my current situation… a student strugling to find a preceptor for an internship (as opposed to being an RN with an MSHSA that would make me OVER qualified to be a DON or even a licensed nursing home administrator with clinical capacity).
Don’t get me wrong. I am going to expect the worst, but hope for the best - that is getting accepted in 2010 to a medical school!!
Ay, yi yi yi. For future reference, you tend to get more answers around here if you stick to a couple of questions per post. I, however, have nothing better to do tonight, so I will try and tackle as many of the questions as possible.
Attend Passaic County Community College
a) matriculated into a premed program; or
b) take them non-matriculated
Attend Rutgers
a) matriculated as an undergrad in premed; or
b) taken in a post-bacc program
Attend CUNY
a) matriculated as an undergrad in premed; or
b) taken in a post-bacc program
Option 2 or 3. Doesn’t really matter a or b, and another option is to take them as a non-degree student. In deciding how to enroll you need to look primarily at how scheduling is done - the courses you need to take very often have waitlists, so you don’t want to have an enrollment status that is going to make life difficult for you because you are low man on the totem pole for scheduling. The secondary consideration is finances (more on that later).
Is it really better to take the prereqs at a university?
Yes. Whenever possible, you should take the pre-reqs at a 4 year institution.
Would I be able to take some at a community college now and then transfer them into a university?
Maybe. Depends on the community college, the university you are attending, etc. etc. Plus, even if you transfer them, you still have to show on your application that you took those courses at a community college.
Should I apply to a school as if I am intending on completing a premed program and stop the minute I get accepted into a medical school? (can I apply/be accepted if I have all my prereqs done, even though I didn’t complete the premed program?)Is that sneaky or underhanded to enroll in a program of study then cut out like that?
You can do this and it will make no difference as to whether or not you get accepted. Some people on here have had to go this route in order to be able to schedule the courses they need. I don’t think it’s considered sneaky or underhanded - it’s unfortunately a necessary evil.
Do non-degree programs like the post-bacc stuff offer financial aid (stafford loan)? (can’t pay for this out of pocket)
Last I knew (and this has been a couple of years, so it might have changed), you were eligible for 12 consecutive months of financial aid to take courses required for admission into a professional program. This is how I did it and it worked out for me. You should probably talk to a knowledgeable financial aid person, however, as things may have changed. You may also want them to look at your specific situation as there are limits on how much money you can borrow, how many credit hours you can borrow for, etc, etc. With your previous extensive academic background, you may want to find out exactly how much aid you are eligible for. Another finance option is private educational loans, although these are a little more difficult to obtain than they used to be. If you have good credit and a co-signer, though, that shouldn’t be a problem.
Would any other science coursework help me be better prepared for the MCAT? Or will Human Biology, Chemistry I&II, and Physics be enough to get me through it?
The list of topics for the MCAT is available on their website. I always encourage people to take a look at it when they are trying to decide what courses to take. In theory, the basic pre-med requirements are all that are tested on the MCAT. I think basic genetics and physiology can also be useful.
I REALLY want to complete my MSHSA, can I be enrolled in that program (the internship I have to complete has a class component where you just log your hours and blog about the experience) and enrolled at another university?
That’s a question you’re going to have to direct towards the specific universities and quite probably their financial aid offices. A potential issue that I see is that you may not be able to get financial aid for both institutions.
If I am able to take:
Biology (4 + 1 lab),
Chemistry (4 + 1 lab),
and Physics (4 + 1 lab) this semester; and,
Organic Chemistry (4 + 1 lab),
Anatomy and Physiology I (4 + 1 lab),
and Calculus (4) in the Fall; then,
what would I do in spring of 2010, other than take my MCATS?
You have to take ONE YEAR (two semesters) each of Biology w/lab, General Chemistry w/lab, Physics w/lab, and Organic Chemistry w/lab, not one semester. Additionally, its usually not possible to enroll in organic chemistry without completing the year of general chemistry first. It takes most people two years to complete the pre-requisites because of the chemistry requirements.
Is there going to come a point where I will just be playing a waiting game with medical school - where I will be in academic limbo that is, my student loans will need to be paid but I won’t be a student anymore? Its not uncommon to have all your prereqs, apply to med school, then have to take a job to pay back your other student loans while waiting to hear back about med school right?
Yes, there may come that point and no, it’s not uncommon for non-traditionals. Traditional students usually apply during their senior year, so that they matriculate in medical school before the end of their deferment period. Some non-trads avoid this by taking additional science courses during the application year.
The way I see it, I can have my prereqs done between this spring and the fall - OR I could take the summer courses offered at PCCC and have it done between now and the summer.
Again, your timeline is off a little. You will need a minimum of two years including application year, and most likely three. You will want to have complete most (if not all) of your pre-reqs prior to taking the MCAT. Additionally, you should allow time during the semester you plan to take the MCAT for MCAT study. Many people advise to treat it like a regular course in terms of study time. Since you have no previous science courses, you are going to want to have the vast majority of your pre-reqs completed prior to applying (not just for the sake of doing well on the MCAT).
But that wouldn’t matter correct? Since I would still need to take my MCAT and apply to medical school - and from what I understand if I apply to medical school this June, and I was accepted, I wouldn’t be starting school until the following year?
Yes, the application process is a full year. You typically apply in June/July, interview over the next academic year, and would matriculate in August of the NEXT year.
Bottom line - I see 2 semesters to complete the prereqs (this spring and next fall), take the MCATS in spring of 2010, apply to med school in 2010, get accepted and start med school in 2011, finish med school in 2015 (and because I wish to be primary care, we really need them) I will be out an on my own in 2018 - 9 and 1/2 years from now… does that sound about right?
More likely that you would take pre-reqs Fall/Spring 2010/2011 and Fall/Spring 2011/2012, take the MCAT and apply 2012 and matriculate 2013. It’s possible that you could start in Spring, but I don’t see that really shaving that much time off unless you do a chemistry in the summer (which is a whole different discussion). Also, a lot of times these courses are only offered “in sequence”, meaning it can be difficult to find the first semester of the course offered in the spring and even more difficult to find the second semester offered in the fall.
Is becoming a doctor at 34/35 old? Will medical schools look at my age negatively (I’ve read posts about 35 y/o starting med school and having trouble)? I will be 27 when I take my MCATS and I am ready to apply to medical school… please tell me this is not that old!
It’s not old. In fact, it’s still quite young. The average age of matriculating students is gradually creeping up and is close to 26 at many schools currently.
Again sorry for the length of this post and how its all over the place… I really appreciate this forum and any advice you all have to offer.
The biggest piece of advice I can offer you right now is to take a deep breath and SLOW DOWN. I know how excited you are to jump in now that you have made the decision, but you want to do this right and on the first try. Spend some time thoroughly investigating the path. Delineate all of your possible options for getting from point A to point B. List the pros and cons of the various options. Be prepared to have to reformulate the plan if everything doesn’t go perfectly. What areas are you strong in? What are you weak in? In addition to academic coursework, what other areas of your application need work? Do you have volunteer work? Patient care experience? Etc, etc?
Hope this was helpful. Welcome to OPM and good luck!
Should I enroll into a nursing program - ie, AAS? and start going for my RN? That way, if I don't get into a medical school in 2010, I can continue on towards an MSN... and if I don't get it in 2011, I can still stick with the NP route... and if in 2012 I don't get it, I can work as an NP and pay back loans... and so on?
At the most basic level, I want something to fall back on... if I am an RN with my MSHSA, the opportunities of landing a job are 100% better than my current situation... a student strugling to find a preceptor for an internship (as opposed to being an RN with an MSHSA that would make me OVER qualified to be a DON or even a licensed nursing home administrator with clinical capacity).
Don't get me wrong. I am going to expect the worst, but hope for the best - that is getting accepted in 2010 to a medical school!!
In my opinion, you risk making yourself look like you don't really know what you want to do, especially with the dual undergrad degree and two masters degrees. You need to show medical schools that you are really, truly dedicated to the path and that applying to medical school isn't just your latest idea. Adding an RN to the previous mix isn't going to help, IMO.
You have to take ONE YEAR (two semesters) each of Biology w/lab, General Chemistry w/lab, Physics w/lab, and Organic Chemistry w/lab, not one semester. Additionally, its usually not possible to enroll in organic chemistry without completing the year of general chemistry first. It takes most people two years to complete the pre-requisites because of the chemistry requirements.
Depends on the med school. I would review various med schools to see what their specific requirements are, categorize them, and go from there.
BTW, Kudos to Emergency for answering this question!
BTW- To the original poster, I would shoot for med school and only med school. Alot of nursing credits do not go towards pre-med cirriculum…It is however something that only you can decide…
thank you so so much for answering all those questions!! it really means a lot, since this decision is basically one that… well, we all know how big it is and its impact on every area of our lives.
i’ve always known i wanted to serve and help people in some capacity. as a matter of fact, i was just going through all of the statements of purpose i have written over the years and found that as a common theme that has become more refined through experience and time. at first, it was law and politics and now it is management and health care.
each degree i have obtained had a core specialization in health policy or health care administration… so hopefully medical schools will see that this is not the latest “thing/fling” for me but that each piece of education was a necessary component to this decision… in fact, i think that spending the last 7 years and 3 degrees narrowing my life’s purpose towards becoming a doctor is much more deliberative than a 21 year old fresh out of college applying.
Even though I am still up in the air about jumping into an accelerated BSN to MSN program (which would transfer in all my social science courses, allowing me the ability to take the basic sciences in lui of them during the program instead of before the program). I think that, as long as I can sell it in my writing and interview, will show that I am further narrowing what capacity I would like to serve in.
But I do respect your opinion… i can totally see how each degree makes me somewhat of a flake and i know the corrolary between RN/NP is not close to MD.
nonetheless, i feel like becoming an RN would only make my MPA and MSHSA more marketable in this economy (since the growing trend among acute care and LTC is to have an RN/NP/MD run the facility)… thus giving me the chance at a profession i would still enjoy while working my way to the ultimate goal… the BSN/MSN program out here through CUNY and Rutgers are similar and require 1 yr Bio, Chem, and Anatomy, 1 semester Microbiology, 1 semester General Genetics, and other electives like pathology (in addition to the strictly nursing courses).
so I guess it begs another question… if i can clearly link each degree and show how necessary/related they were in this deliberative process of choosing medical school, does your opinion change?
clearly this is something that i find of interest/importance, cause i am pushing the question again lol - but also, you “have been there and done that” with all of this so that is incredibly important to me too…
You have to take ONE YEAR (two semesters) each of Biology w/lab, General Chemistry w/lab, Physics w/lab, and Organic Chemistry w/lab, not one semester. Additionally, its usually not possible to enroll in organic chemistry without completing the year of general chemistry first. It takes most people two years to complete the pre-requisites because of the chemistry requirements.
Depends on the med school. I would review various med schools to see what their specific requirements are, categorize them, and go from there.
While I would agree that specific requirements do indeed vary from school to school - i.e. some schools require calculus or statistics, others require biochemistry - the vast majority of US medical schools list the previously mentioned courses as pre-requisites. I have seen some variation on lab requirements and some schools that only require a semester of a certain discipline, but they are in the minority. I highly recommend that everyone contemplating to medical school either buy or check out from a library the most current edition of the MSAR (Medical School Admission Requirements), published by the AAMC yearly. https://services.aamc.org/Publications/index.cfm?fuseaction=Product.displayForm&prd_id=22 6
PS - I'm genuinely curious: are you aware of specific schools that require less than a year of most/all of the standard pre-reqs?
so I guess it begs another question... if i can clearly link each degree and show how necessary/related they were in this deliberative process of choosing medical school, does your opinion change?
Probably. In fact, at some point you are most likely going to have to do so for the admissions committees - either in a personal statement or interview. I don't necessarily think that you're flaky, but if I'm an adcom member, I'm wondering "Is this guy going to be satisfied with medical school or is he going to want to move on to something else?". Although it may seem odd, non-trads often have do have to work harder to prove that they are serious about med school than you might think.
I still think that in your situation, pursuing a nursing degree is going to hurt your application more than help it. But, that's just my opinion. I always encourage people to make contact with med schools that are close or they are interested in and get some opinions from them.
PS - I'm genuinely curious: are you aware of specific schools that require less than a year of most/all of the standard pre-reqs?
Yes, the University of Minnesota. The school expects students to do a certain amount of research on what the individual student feels they need to adequately prepare for MCAT and med school. At the end of all the pre-reqs for the U of MN it may very well turn out to be exactly as some other school BUT it may not too.
For instance, in my program I'm taking upper level physiology, biochem, and microbiology which are NOT specifically called out and yet fit under the 3rd row heading.
This is why I suggested he compare/contrast schools he's interested in to make sure he's getting coverage. It's what I did to make sure what I'm taking at U of MN will cover Wake Forest, UNC, etc.
i am so glad i came here to ask these questions instead of going all “willy nilly” into it… i would really screw things up with how zealous i am right now - taking courses immediately at CC rather than a 4 year, going for an accelerated BSN rather than simply transfering in and obtaining another bacc degree in science…
because it is so late in the game this semester, i will just take my infomatics course and HR research course in my current grad program (i’ve completed everything already, this is just to keep the loan hounds off my back)… actually, the only component i have left is an internship, but i am having a heck of a time trying to get a preceptor… if anyone on here knows anyone in the NJ/NYC metro area that could help me get something set up please let me know!!!
anyway. emergency, you rock! i really appreciate the help everyone, and im not just blowing smoke here… as small as it may seem, you’ve all saved me a BIG headache/heartbreak in the future…
i know see the light of how my many degrees is supposed to be linked in my defense:
BA - interested in influencing health policy
MPA - interested in influencing health outcomes through management, but the DOH in NY changed requirements
MSHSA - interested in influencing health outcomes through management, now this is the right program for what i want to do - approved for such by the DOH
BS/Post Bacc - in whatever interests me the most in the next two years, i deeply desire the long journey to medical school.
MD - this is where my purpose is and all my life experiences have pushed me towards this.
For future reference, you tend to get more answers around here if you stick to a couple of questions per post. I, however, have nothing better to do tonight, so I will try and tackle as many of the questions as possible. 