Okay, many years have passed now, but after I graduated from college, I took a few advanced bio classes at my local college (in the same state where I graduated but in my hometown). I was burnt out and didn’t do so well (2 Cs and 1D).
Anyway, I’m about to start getting my apps together and I wonder if I REALLY have to include this one semester from this one school. It’s not included on my transcript from where I graduated. I just don’t need these classes bringing down my GPA.
If I don’t include it, do you think that the schools I’m applying to will be able to find out about it? Is there some national database where they can look me up?
Thanks - Charmer
This has been discussed before, but I don’t know of a key word or phrase that would make the thread pop right up in a search. So I will summarize the previous discussions: REPORT ALL GRADES.
You are asked to certify that the information you submit is true and complete. Don’t lie. People are always wondering if they can get away with it. The truth is that I am sure people HAVE gotten away with it. But it remains a lie whether you’re caught or not, and you do not want to do it. Here’s where you get to take your lumps as an adult, suck it up and state that you just screwed up but it was a long time ago and you’re much more responsible now (or whatever it is you think should be said about this academic detour). Show that you can stand by your actions and take responsibility for them.
Don’t lie! Don’t even think about lying!
Mary
Excellent words Mary!
Do you happen to know the general time-frame of this thread? I’d be really interested in reading it.
Yeah, people have gotten away with it I’m sure, but not the ones who posted their intent as well as state of residence and general date of application on two internet forums! Be careful, charmer.
Good luck to you too. Everyone has some stuff they’d rather conceal, so those grades really won’t be a big deal.
The most recent discussion on this topic is here (click). There are older threads on this subject too.
This really hits a nerve for me, as you will see from my comments on this older thread. It is not just that you should “be careful” and not do this because it could be a career-limiting move. It’s that you shouldn’t even THINK of doing it because it is dishonest, whether you are caught or not. My integrity as a physician is something that I value highly. I want my colleagues to hold themselves to that same high standard.
Mary
yeah, as Mary said… you have to report them all… and believe me… there are some of us that wish that this seriously wasn’t true… but it is… not that it will count for much of anything… but at least you’ll know that you were honest when you filled out your app.
I want to say that I was just adding the “be careful” because I think that in addition to it being totally unethical to not report these grades, it’s risky, and it sounds to me like the OP cares more about the risks involved than the ethics. That’s the vibe I get anyway, and there’s nothing charming about it; I’ll refrain from any further comment because I agree with what’s already been said.
REPORT ALL GRADES, period. I’ve got to report 4 F’s post bacc. I was a young moron who didn’t know what I really wanted to do. My GPA is around a 3.11 overall, 3.58 science because of it.
Dr. Mary is right. It boils down to trust and integrity. If, in later years when I’m a physician, I have to question whether or not a colleague really ran a test on a patient and are reporting factual results or just what they think they remember and are representing as facts, I don’t want to work with them. They’re going to get someone killed or seriously screwed up.
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I want to say that I was just adding the “be careful” because I think that in addition to it being totally unethical to not report these grades, it’s risky, and it sounds to me like the OP cares more about the risks involved than the ethics. That’s the vibe I get anyway, and there’s nothing charming about it; I’ll refrain from any further comment because I agree with what’s already been said.
pushkin sorry, I didn’t mean to single out your comment or imply that you were “only” giving pragmatic advice. As you well know, it’s been said many times before. I know you meant it in every sense of the phrase.
Mary
I find this to be a fascinating concept. I took the organic sequence this summer at a “Summer Science Institute” where virtually all of the students were from other institutions. As such, for most of them, they were transferring the credit back to their home institutions, and it was only going to transfer as pass or fail.
I heard MANY discussions this summer about how if they did poorly, they were just going to pretend like they never took it or that it didn’t matter if they got a C because it was only going to transfer as above. The vast majority of these students are pre-med, pre-vet, pre-pharm and this attitude kind of shocked me.
I don’t know if these attitudes came about because they haven’t started the application process and don’t understand that they are supposed to report ALL grades or just reflect the ethical attitude in general. I wonder when the time comes to apply how many of them (if they didn’t get the grade they wanted) will fail to report their grades from this summer.
How prevalent do you think it is for people not to include poor grades if it is fairly easy to ignore them? Does AMCAS or the schools have a way of finding out that a person attended an institution that they didn’t report?
Amy
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This has been discussed before, but I don’t know of a key word or phrase that would make the thread pop right up in a search. So I will summarize the previous discussions: REPORT ALL GRADES.
Mary
Darn, and here I have this four year undergraduate career I was hoping no one would notice was missing.
Erica
I can’t even fathom NOT reporting all grades.
It’s all about integrity, as Mary said.
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I find this to be a fascinating concept. I took the organic sequence this summer at a “Summer Science Institute” where virtually all of the students were from other institutions. As such, for most of them, they were transferring the credit back to their home institutions, and it was only going to transfer as pass or fail.
I heard MANY discussions this summer about how if they did poorly, they were just going to pretend like they never took it or that it didn’t matter if they got a C because it was only going to transfer as above. The vast majority of these students are pre-med, pre-vet, pre-pharm and this attitude kind of shocked me.
I don’t know if these attitudes came about because they haven’t started the application process and don’t understand that they are supposed to report ALL grades or just reflect the ethical attitude in general. I wonder when the time comes to apply how many of them (if they didn’t get the grade they wanted) will fail to report their grades from this summer.
How prevalent do you think it is for people not to include poor grades if it is fairly easy to ignore them? Does AMCAS or the schools have a way of finding out that a person attended an institution that they didn’t report?
Amy
I have no idea how prevalent it is. I am sure it is done. I do know that those people who think they’ll only have to show the “pass” are in for a shock. First of all, “Pass” won’t cut it for a prerequisite anyway - SOMs need to see the grade. Secondly, it WILL show up on the transcript as a credit transferred from another institution and AMCAS/AACOMAS is going to ask that the transcript from that institution be forwarded. (and if they don’t know this, they are also in for a lot of pain during the application process as their apps will take longer to get certified…)
I don’t know if AMCAS has any other way of finding out about other institutions you’ve attended. Obviously it’s not the kind of question you can ask of them! I do know that your application should show all time accounted for - if you worked two summers during college and have a big blank hole for another summer (because you aren’t reporting a course you bombed at an outside institution), this could raise a red flag with someone who’s poring over the details of your application.
Obviously there are both practical and ethical reasons to avoid any sort of omission or misrepresentation on your application. Aside from sitting on my high horse about it, I also would be just plain out terrified that someone would find out, hunt me down, and take away my degree. There ARE stories of people dismissed from medical school when their pre-med misrepresentations came to light.
Mary
Funny thing, but doctors and medical schools and medical licensing boards are kind of big on the whole telling-the-truth thing. Patients are kind of becoming sticklers about it too.
It’s really hard to get kicked out of medical school, which in turn is one of the only ways to ensure that you’ll never be a doctor. Falsifying some element of your application is one of the only ways to get kicked out. Will you get kicked out if you do this? I’m with Mary: whatever the odds, who wants to live with that kind of anxiety?
Besides that, one of the occupational hazards of being a medical student is a constant feeling of fraudulence–most of us often feel as if someone is going to find out that we actually suck and that they will then put this whole charade to a stop. And that’s when we haven’t even committed any kind of fraud! So, I think even if you didn’t get caught, you would do a terrible and irrevocable psychic damage to yourself were you to lie on your application.
joe
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Funny thing, but doctors and medical schools and medical licensing boards are kind of big on the whole telling-the-truth thing. Patients are kind of becoming sticklers about it too.
It’s really hard to get kicked out of medical school, which in turn is one of the only ways to ensure that you’ll never be a doctor. Falsifying some element of your application is one of the only ways to get kicked out. Will you get kicked out if you do this? I’m with Mary: whatever the odds, who wants to live with that kind of anxiety?
Besides that, one of the occupational hazards of being a medical student is a constant feeling of fraudulence–most of us often feel as if someone is going to find out that we actually suck and that they will then put this whole charade to a stop. And that’s when we haven’t even committed any kind of fraud! So, I think even if you didn’t get caught, you would do a terrible and irrevocable psychic damage to yourself were you to lie on your application.
joe
I’m with Joe and Mary. Report everything. Grades have a funny way of growing legs when they aren’t reported. It’s not pretty.
Cheers,
Judy
Ok,
I’ll bite (again). Of all the things in the world that I value, integrity and honesty are at the top of my list.
Recently I was whining about reporting all grades, however… Why? because, in a moment of impulse about 7 years ago, I signed up for music classes at our local hole in the wall U, and did fine until I had family comittments to attend to and I couldn’t complete the classes. Needless to say, I didn’t pass all the classes… I actually had a pass in one because I was able to resched the exam, but I got an incomplete in another which turned into an F.
These classes are not relevant to my future as a doc (except to show that I have a breath of interests), but my GPA will be hurt because of it. At the time I wasn’t considering going to med school, and didn’t really think about GPA, it was ‘just a class’. I simply thought I was learning – which is important to me - and should be a positive, not a negative.
I do NOT think that I should ‘hide’ this grade, but it does depress me that it will be calculated in my GPA - which I think it should not. And bring it down it will – and those aren’t classes I will be doing over – I don’t have time, money or interest. I’m not sure how one should handle stuff like this, but it scares me more than a little that something like this should hurt me as much as it will.
But life goes on. As I said in another thread. This time I’m not going to give up until ‘they’ reject me. When I was younger I let my LD/ADHD and resulting math learning difficulties prevent me from even trying to apply. This time I’m going to make sure I have the requirements complete, and apply. If it doesn’t get me there, I will then figure it out… I let fear keep me out before, and this time I am at least going to give it a real try…
I would not be discussing these things openly on a list anyone could read if I had anything I was going to try to hide. I am sure people interested in the quality of students out there and/or who will someday make decisions about future students are on this list. I am more interested in figuring out how to make it to med school despite my deficits, boo-boos and misfires… I know I have the qualities to make a real contribution as a physician, I just have to figure out how to get a chance to prove it to ‘the powers that be’.
I cannot say I’m not scared, however… But life is difficult enough without lies.
Leah
I’m deleting the post as promised! 
Unchecked power to gather information and to basically scour one’s life. As someone else said, this is what gets to me…
If they won’t accept grades older than a certain age, then why must they all be submitted?
Sorry but not every W is relevant.
It’s not about hiding things, but what is the statute of limitation for youthful irrelevancies?
I don’t believe that it’s dishonest not to report a bankrupcy once that history is no longer on the credit report… Society agrees it’s considered past, that’s why it’s removed from the records after a certain period.
So why is it that everything academic is ‘relevant’… It’s almost as if it’s up to me to prove myself ‘innocent’ if I have anything in my past that isn’t neat and tidy. I would still resent this if I had a perfect record academically. Life is not neat, and people who don’t fit the neat categories can be good doctors. I just hope that grades aren’t all they look at. How do they determine which applicants to consider? Do they simply cut off folks by (old) grades, or do they look at the other stuff as well (like good MCAT’s for example)
Leah
who will list everything, no matter how irrelevant…
I can see why the academic stuff is relevant, I guess. I don’t really mind that part of it so much. I just don’t like it when any small group has too big a piece of power. I also have noticed the extent to which the application process focuses on applicants’ individual achievements. It would be nice to see more questions along the lines of what I expect the medical profession as a group to achieve within the society.