Request for advice, please

Hello all…





I am new to this site; this is my first post. I am 37 years old with a BS in Chem and an MS Industrial Health. My degrees are over 10 years old.


As I type, I am noticing the negative connotation I perceive when I type the word ‘old.’ It’s just like me to want to initiate what I perceive to be positive change as soon as I walk in the door…do you think we can change the name of this forum to 'MaturePreMeds?" I am not being serious, of course. I love the name.


Seriously, I am in need of advice, please. I want to take the MCAT exam asap. This September I have the opportunity to take classes to prepare me for the MCAT. I was thinking of taking:


Chem II (no lab)


Organic Chem II (no lab)


Physics II (no lab)


Biochemistry (no lab)


Genetics (no lab)


I know it’s 20 credits, but if I earn a 4.0, which I think I can, then this will help off-set (to the judges) my slacker grades from when I was much younger - when I had no meaningful career goals (I was a slacker).


My questions are this:


Am I on the right track in terms of trying to demonstrate that I can handle a very challenging academic load?


and


Am I correct in registering for Chem II, Physics II, and Organic Chem II? or Should I register for Chem I, Physics I, and Organic Chem I?


In other words, does the MCAT have more of the 1st level questions on it or 2nd level? I think I can handle the 2nd level classes, but am I overshooting? If the MCAT mostly tests 1st level, then I want to take all the 1st level classes, obviously.


A dozen thank yous, and if I ‘make it,’ I promise to pay it forward.


Oh…incidentally, I am going to try to attend the OldPreMed 2008 Conference, which I just discovered tonight minutes ago.


Thank you all for the work you do.


Heather

Heather, I will repeat the excellent advice to you that was given to me: this is a marathon, not a sprint.


You need the information in the first semester courses to succeed in the second semester courses. They also usually serve as prerequisites, and you need credit in all of them. In addition, only a very few people can handle Ochem without first having had Gen. Chem. With your BS in chemistry, you may well be one of them, if you’ve been using the information.


But if you’ve been out of school for a while and had slacker grades previously, jumping into 20 hours of science classes while taking Ochem and Gen Chem at the same time is…well, it’s basically crazy, not to put too fine a point on it. Ease into things with at most 3 classes if you are not working and 2, maybe 1, if you are working full time.


Your most important task at this time is to do VERY WELL. Rushing in too quickly and getting in over your head can lead to disappointing performance, which you absolutely cannot afford at this point.


So welcome to OPM. Harness your enthusiasm to read older posts on the site, make a solid plan of action including course work, MCAT, volunteering, and letters of recommendation, and please SLOW DOWN! Your journey will go much more smoothly and believe me, the time will fly.

Heather,


Before enrolling in any classes, I would recommend that you take an AAMC practice MCAT to see where your strengths and weaknesses lie. The MCAT is oftentimes referred to as an application test of the concepts you were to have learned in your premedical studies. So in your case, you may only need to review minimally through a MCAT prep book the courses you had before, and instead, devote the majority of your energies in practicing solving MCAT problems.


The courses you listed above you should have already taken as a chemistry major in college (with the exception of Genetics). Here’s my opinion of retaking premedical perquisites:

  • ihopetobeado2 Said:
There are some on this site who advocate retaking premedical coursework you've already done well in after a certain time period has elapsed. There are others, like myself, who advocate not doing this because in addition to the unnecessary costs, it’s kind of assumed that you’ll get an easy “A” retaking remedial coursework. Regardless of whichever route you take, you should take upper-level premedical coursework (like biochemistry, neuroanatomy, molecular biology, etc.) that build upon lower-division premedical coursework. Achieving in these courses not only proves that you’ve mastered the lower-level premedical coursework, but also helps to prove that you can handle similar, graduate-level medical school coursework.



Now, if you’re retaking classes to up your GPA that can be done by retaking classes: Osteopathic medical schools will replace your older grade in a class with the most recent grade, but allopathic medical schools will only average the recent grade in a class with your previous grade. Obviously, though, both types of medical schools will see you have retaken classes to up your GPA, so you will need supplement your retakes with some advanced-level premedical coursework to show your current academic prowess in handling new, biomedical courses. Your course selections to prove this might be limited because you might have already taken many of the potential advanced-level premedical courses as a chemistry major or in graduate school. But depending on how you did in your upper-division chemistry courses and how you did in your graduate work, you might be able to take some medical school courses at a nearby medical school as non-degree seeking student (really ideal to prove your medical school ability) or your might want to consider enrolling in an advanced-level, premedical post-baccalaureate program that is designed to rehabilitate premedical GPAs through taking unique, but advanced-level premedical courses like neuroanatomy, gross anatomy, second semester biochemistry, etc.

You allude to some history in terms of grades, so my question for you is: on your way to earning a BS in Chemistry, did you LEARN any chemistry? I don’t mean that to be a smarta$$ or facetious; I’m serious. I can easily imagine a circumstance in which one could skate through and do enough to graduate without actually learning much of the subject of one’s major.


That’s the first thing that strikes me: I don’t have a good sense of where you need to pick up from where you left off. You may very well be able to get away without as much chemistry as someone who doesn’t have a bachelor’s degree in it… or you may not, I don’t know.


The other thing is, there are so many other things that you’re going to need besides coursework and MCATs. Where do you stand in terms of shadowing? volunteering? for example.


Also, AdComs always want to know that someone has given careful consideration to the career choice of physician, and I think this is particularly true when they’re looking at OPMs. They don’t want to be indulging someone’s midlife crisis, or accept someone who has been bouncing around from one career to another, seemingly without direction. So while you feel a strong need to hurry as fast as you can, you may actually be a better and stronger applicant if you take your time so that you can demonstrate a clear path to this goal.


We don’t actually know much about you from this one post and I may be making assumptions that aren’t valid. But anyone who plans to take 20 credits of science in their first semester back sounds like they are in too much of a hurry for it to be good for them, frankly. Deep breath! Med school isn’t going anywhere - but YOU will be, if you take your time and do it right.


Mary

Wow, ihopetobeado2…


That’s some pretty amazing advice. Thank you.


I wonder what you think about the idea of me getting a quick 12 month Accelerated BS RN degree, then moving to Florida where the med school is I want to attend, then working for a year or two as an RN while studying for MCATs, improving my GPA, etc., then applying for med school?


PS: Please direct me to where I can donate here. I want to contribute.

Thank you samenewme,


I appreciate your advice. I like the analogy you gave me about the marathon. I will put that in my pocket and feel wiser.


Thanks!

Thanks, Mary Renard…


I appreciate your advice. It’s nice to know there is so much support here. I feel lucky to have three experienced people offer me advice.


Thank you!

  • HeatherShirley Said:
Wow, ihopetobeado2...

That's some pretty amazing advice. Thank you.

I wonder what you think about the idea of me getting a quick 12 month Accelerated BS RN degree, then moving to Florida where the med school is I want to attend, then working for a year or two as an RN while studying for MCATs, improving my GPA, etc., then applying for med school?

PS: Please direct me to where I can donate here. I want to contribute.



WOW I'm an RN as Mary is and I have to tell you it is not a help but a potential negative, most not in Medicine do not understand this, Nurses are not viewed as almost Doctors like a lot of Lay people think.

It will be questioned as Jumping as Mary said, from one thing to another. Adcoms will question why study Nursing then Medicine so quick. I was a nurse for 17 years before I decided to go to medical school so by then the question of jumping was a not even asked.

I would not do the courses as you planned.

I think that is a bad schedule and yo need to take the Labs to really to the courses right.

What I would do is a Post bac. This is the best way to do this.

What was the GPA of the old degree BTW this matters.

Good Luck.

DRFP,


Hi and thank you.


My BS GPA is a 3.37, but has a lot of Ws, Ds, Fs, because I lacked direction and motivation.


My MS GPA is a 3.0. Same reason the BS wasn’t better.


So do you think it’s unethical to use the Accelerated BS RN to work my way to medical school? I am confused. What am I missing? I thought the advantages were obvious and great. Please explain?


Volunteering is my strength. Letters of recommendation are strong too.


How do I get clinical experience then, please?



Thank you all. I was not interested in the post bac path until now. Now I am very interested.


I am still curious about what ihopetobeado2 thinks about the 12 month BS RN path in general.


I deeply appreciate the support!



  • HeatherShirley Said:
DRFP,

Hi and thank you.

My BS GPA is a 3.37, but has a lot of Ws, Ds, Fs, because I lacked direction and motivation.

My MS GPA is a 3.0. Same reason the BS wasn't better.

So do you think it's unethical to use the Accelerated BS RN to work my way to medical school? I am confused. What am I missing? I thought the advantages were obvious and great. Please explain?

Volunteering is my strength. Letters of recommendation are strong too.

How do I get clinical experience then, please?



This is hard to understand but I will try

Nurses are Great and respected for their contribution by Patients and Doctors alike but

Doctors and the Medical profession and the Nursing profession have been and continue to be at odds to this day.

This is due to Doctors attitudes and Nurses higher up in the profession, the higher Nurses as we speak are creating a Doctoral Degree DNP, Doctorate Nurse Practice, this is a clear example of the problems there are, this is an expectation by the Nurse educators that in the future these DNP will be primary care providers as MD/DO FP's are now.

so politically nurses are at odds with Medicine.

Not the Floor nurses but the Higher up, mostly nurse educators,

The ADCOMS will question anyone who goes into a profession only to abandon it so soon to go to medical school, its a natural question.

Plus there is a huge need for Nurses just as there is for Doctors in the USA.

SO its not a simple thing to answer but I have tried to lay the ground work for you here.
  • ihopetobeado2 Said:
Heather,

Now, if you’re retaking classes to up your GPA that can be done by retaking classes: Osteopathic medical schools will replace your older grade in a class with the most recent grade,



Can some DO students or Grads verify this? I have not heard of a 100% replacement policy of DO applicants who retook classes, I thought the older GPA still was considered?
  • DRFP Said:
  • ihopetobeado2 Said:
Heather,

Now, if you’re retaking classes to up your GPA that can be done by retaking classes: Osteopathic medical schools will replace your older grade in a class with the most recent grade,



Can some DO students or Grads verify this? I have not heard of a 100% replacement policy of DO applicants who retook classes, I thought the older GPA still was considered?



"GPA and Credit Hour Computations

AACOMAS will calculate your GPA and credit hours according to the following rules – GPAs and credit hours will be calculated for Science, Non-Science and All course work. Science GPAs include Biology/Zoology, Biochemistry, Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Other Science, and Physics. Non-science GPAs include Behavioral Science, English, Math, and Other Non-science.



Courses with AACOMAS grades of Pass, Non-pass, and Advanced Placement are not included in GPA calculations. Only the last instance of a repeated course is included in GPA calculation.

April 28, 2008"

AACOMAS Online under "Instructions for completing Colleges and Coursework"
  • ihopetobeado2 Said:
  • DRFP Said:
  • ihopetobeado2 Said:
Heather,

Now, if you’re retaking classes to up your GPA that can be done by retaking classes: Osteopathic medical schools will replace your older grade in a class with the most recent grade,



Can some DO students or Grads verify this? I have not heard of a 100% replacement policy of DO applicants who retook classes, I thought the older GPA still was considered?



"GPA and Credit Hour Computations

AACOMAS will calculate your GPA and credit hours according to the following rules – GPAs and credit hours will be calculated for Science, Non-Science and All course work. Science GPAs include Biology/Zoology, Biochemistry, Inorganic Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Other Science, and Physics. Non-science GPAs include Behavioral Science, English, Math, and Other Non-science.



Courses with AACOMAS grades of Pass, Non-pass, and Advanced Placement are not included in GPA calculations. Only the last instance of a repeated course is included in GPA calculation.

April 28, 2008"

AACOMAS Online under "Instructions for completing Colleges and Coursework"



I understand but I'm not sure this is right, if it was then every Premed who had a 2.5 would just retake the courses and get a 3.8 average for DO schools and there would be thousands more doing this and applying, I'm have never heard it was this simple before.

Just to muddy the waters on the Nurse to MD issue, several of my classmates are nurses and at least a couple of them went straight from nursing school to med school or worked just a short time before applying. It’s not recommended, but it’s not a death knell to your application, either.

I am new at quoting people on Forums, and I hope I don’t botch this attempt to quote DRFP…

  • DRFP Said:


This is hard to understand but I will try

Nurses are Great and respected for their contribution by Patients and Doctors alike but

Doctors and the Medical profession and the Nursing profession have been and continue to be at odds to this day.

This is due to Doctors attitudes and Nurses higher up in the profession, the higher Nurses as we speak are creating a Doctoral Degree DNP, Doctorate Nurse Practice, this is a clear example of the problems there are, this is an expectation by the Nurse educators that in the future these DNP will be primary care providers as MD/DO FP's are now.

so politically nurses are at odds with Medicine.

Not the Floor nurses but the Higher up, mostly nurse educators,

The ADCOMS will question anyone who goes into a profession only to abandon it so soon to go to medical school, its a natural question.

Plus there is a huge need for Nurses just as there is for Doctors in the USA.

SO its not a simple thing to answer but I have tried to lay the ground work for you here.



Fascinating. The dramas and violent communication within our culture are interesting. I say 'violent,' because I think I know a bit about allopathic trying to squish out DO in the past (but allopathic failed), and I think I know about allopathic successfully squishing Natural Hygiene in the past. I think our culture uses 'violent' communication to squish out the competition (within a capitalist society), when we would benefit to use non-violent communication. Thank you for the reminder of this political-social dynamic that exists.

I suspected that I might be wasting RN resources if I am utilizing an RN program to only give back to 'nursing' for a couple/few years. You are stimulating my mind. I am thinking....this is a capitalist society, and thus my suspicion is flawed. In other words, it's ethical in our economic structure to become an RN then an MD, I think. This is not my final stance, because I don't want to generalize; it makes more sense to me to evaluate on a case by case basis. In my case, this is what you are helping me to think....

Hypothetically speaking....I become an RN with the intent to become the best MD or DO I can be (I respect both models of treatment). Then I work as an RN for a couple/few years while helping others as I develop my strengths further. Then I apply to med school and become an MD or DO.

If I do the above, I will be in a good position to be actively supportive of the RN educators mission to become primary doctors (you called it a DNP). I would not want to abandon nurses! I love their idea! One reason I love their idea so much, is because I have a dream to help to establish a similar group of new primary doctors (GPs) called DH or Doctor of Health. It's such an important field (Natural Hygiene), and I am super supportive of giving patients (customers) more choices and more self-empowerment (through having more options that come with more education which leads to more self-empowerment).

I appeciate this conversation very much. This forum is fabulous. I love OldPreMeds!

Now if we switch to National Health Care, more socialistic than capitalistic, then I think I would be perceived as taking too much maybe. I don't know for sure.

I Googled ADCOMS, but I did not find what it means. I wonder what it means.

Thank you again.
  • samenewme Said:
Just to muddy the waters on the Nurse to MD issue, several of my classmates are nurses and at least a couple of them went straight from nursing school to med school or worked just a short time before applying. It's not recommended, but it's not a death knell to your application, either.



Thank you, SameNewMe, for telling me you know people who are traveling this RN to MD path. It's nice to know I am not alone in this idea. It's possible that eventually our society will come up with common academic programs called RN-MD and RN-DO. I am not sure if it's what I'll do, but I think I know "options are good," and I thank you again.

I have to research my options relative to this post bac pre med idea you all seem to agree on. I am so appreciative of the post bac pre med idea.


Oooops! ADCOM = Admission Committee. I figured this out by reading other conversations. Got it.

  • samenewme Said:
Just to muddy the waters on the Nurse to MD issue, several of my classmates are nurses and at least a couple of them went straight from nursing school to med school or worked just a short time before applying. It's not recommended, but it's not a death knell to your application, either.



Yes I'm not saying not to do it, just know what the deal is on this and how it may be received.

I also want to say.....? I do not understand this
  • In reply to:
I say 'violent,' because I think I know a bit about allopathic trying to squish out DO in the past (but allopathic failed), and I think I know about allopathic successfully squishing Natural Hygiene in the past.



What is this? Natural Pathic medicine is interesting, but to me its just another way to take Drugs....... To me a Drug is anything you take, food, herbs, medicine that changes or influences the body processes in some way, I have to laugh many times since there are so many drugs at the pharmacy that are "Natural" they are extracts or refined from natural product and sometimes combined with other such drugs. Several are Digoxin, Codeine, epinepherine, Vincristine, I could on and on.........I often think if the drug companies "Sythesize a new drug where do you think the chemicals come from? We do not just make up matter from the "Air", chemicals that make up some drugs are from the natural world usually.

BTW when we study for the USMLE we have to study a lot of nutrition and Biochem.


  • DRFP Said:
  • samenewme Said:
Just to muddy the waters on the Nurse to MD issue, several of my classmates are nurses and at least a couple of them went straight from nursing school to med school or worked just a short time before applying. It's not recommended, but it's not a death knell to your application, either.



Yes I'm not saying not to do it, just know what the deal is on this and how it may be received.

I also want to say.....? I do not understand this
  • In reply to:
I say 'violent,' because I think I know a bit about allopathic trying to squish out DO in the past (but allopathic failed), and I think I know about allopathic successfully squishing Natural Hygiene in the past.



What is this? Natural Pathic medicine is interesting, but to me its just another way to take Drugs....... To me a Drug is anything you take, food, herbs, medicine that changes or influences the body processes in some way, I have to laugh many times since there are so many drugs at the pharmacy that are "Natural" they are extracts or refined from natural product and sometimes combined with other such drugs. Several are Digoxin, Codeine, epinepherine, Vincristine, I could on and on.........I often think if the drug companies "Sythesize a new drug where do you think the chemicals come from? We do not just make up matter from the "Air", chemicals that make up some drugs are from the natural world usually.

BTW when we study for the USMLE we have to study a lot of nutrition and Biochem.



I am sorry! I should have known to explain better. Natural Hygiene (also known as Natural Health) is NOT anywhere near the same as Naturopath or ND. ND is more like MD and DO..treating the symptoms of many dis-eases rather than addressing the cause(s) "Hygiene" is a funny word that almost no one seems to know about anymore in terms of health care, because of the history of capitalism and health care. My MS is in Industrial Hygiene (aka Industrial Health). Most people don't know about Industrial Health, because the OSHA Act was born in 1971, which isn't that long ago, really (ha ha that's the year I was born..I am trying to claim to be young).

Just in case you are interested...the three top Natural Hygienists I know of are:

Dr. Doug Graham, former chiropractor (www.FoodnSport.com)

Don Bennett, author and disease avoidance specialist (www.Health101.org)

Dr. David Klein (www.LivingNutrition.com)

The above NHs all agree on pretty much everything. I call them the 3 Big Ds, because they are the most famous of the Natural Hygienists, I guess one might say.

Sorry for the confusion!