Richard's Rules for NON-TRAD success

Nontraditional Premed Discussion
21
  • Richard B Said:
Oh yes,

You are precisely correct, Physics is HELL...

O chem is not hell (in my opine DOABLE) but a TIME VACUUM... stay away from them "together....

Richard



So in other words, if physics isn't required as a pre-req for any of my classes since I'm a bio major, take ochem my first year (ochem's required for some of the upper div stuff) and physics my last year at UCSB. Gotcha, will do.
22

Tim,


Whoa there…


If you are still considering a break from the full schedule… physics is somthing I would take before O chem. In your case take physics (with the lab probably 4 credits) and an english (3 credits or some other PUD course) for a total of 7 credits in your first and second of your “off semsters” while you are taking NR-PM… that would be a cool time to rejoin the “bigs”.


How is your math? Have you had trig? Trig is useful for physics…


Try to do as much as you can in the four year UC system (a pretty good one from all I have heard)


Richard

23
  • Richard B Said:
Tim,

Whoa there...

If you are still considering a break from the full schedule... physics is somthing I would take before O chem. In your case take physics (with the lab probably 4 credits) and an english (3 credits or some other PUD course) for a total of 7 credits in your first and second of your "off semsters" while you are taking NR-PM... that would be a cool time to rejoin the "bigs".

How is your math? Have you had trig? Trig is useful for physics...

Try to do as much as you can in the four year UC system (a pretty good one from all I have heard)

Richard



Well, I don't really have a choice, actually. Since I'll be transferring in fall of '09, UCSB requires me to have my year of biology done, so I'll have to get that done in lieu of physics. I have two GE courses left to take so no problem staying right at about half-time, however, I have to do biology in order to transfer. Since that's 3 classes, I'll probably take biology next semester, botany next fall, and zoology next spring.

I plan to spend two years at UCSB, so I could do O chem my first year and then physics my second (and last) year. The only disadvantage this would give me is not being able to take the MCAT until I should have already applied, but the only alternative is to take O chem and physics in the first year.

My math is ok, but I've never liked math that much. I'm kind of struggling in calculus right now, although that's primarily because my teacher is horrible...calc itself doesn't seem too bad. Pretty rusty on trig, haven't used it in awhile, but like I said the physics at UCSB is calc-based, which I'd prefer to take anyway since I hear the equations make more sense conceptually and there's less of them since for instance, finding velocity or acceleration, I can take either the first derivative for velocity or the second derivative for acceleration...not sure how you do that with trig-based physics but I'm sure there's a lot more steps involved.
24

Tim,


You seem a VERY bright young man! Was your post earlier a “post of frustration” (regarding dropping to 6 credits)? or something else?


When you transfer to the “Big School” it seems like such a big deal… (I assume you mean University of California at Santa Barbara?) This half-time might prove to be a great advantage… let me explain… First, You want to get as much of your stuff (pre-med credits) from “BIG SCHOOL” as you can (it is unwritten for political correctness reasons but in my experience is this: people do NOT get to medical school from the Community College system… (please refer to my rules regarding the “hoops”… oh GOD I am gonna get flamed for that one… but I am a SENIOR MEDICAL STUDENT MS-4… applying to residency… so I have earned an opinion), from the straight up perspective and from the secondary opportunity perspective (chances for teaching or research) the “big school” is the SMART move.


Get your physics out of the way FIRST, alone… in a vacuum if you will. That was the reason I asked about your math… Get everything except O chem done then start what might be your last year with O chem (alone) with some pud courses like Western Civ. The second semester of O chem is the Ideal time to take the MCAT.


You will find dozens of posts around here recommending that order… I gotta agree with them! You have advantages… your synapses are younger… you have not had to endure the abuse as mine (brain synapses) have (lets leave it at that)


As I have advised previously… get a PLAN (in writing) and stick to it…


Yours always,


Richard

25
  • Richard B Said:
Tim,

You seem a VERY bright young man! Was your post earlier a "post of frustration" (regarding dropping to 6 credits)? or something else?

When you transfer to the "Big School" it seems like such a big deal... (I assume you mean University of California at Santa Barbara?) This half-time might prove to be a great advantage.. let me explain... First, You want to get as much of your stuff (pre-med credits) from "BIG SCHOOL" as you can (it is unwritten for political correctness reasons but in my experience is this: people do NOT get to medical school from the Community College system... (please refer to my rules regarding the "hoops"... oh GOD I am gonna get flamed for that one... but I am a SENIOR MEDICAL STUDENT MS-4.. applying to residency... so I have earned an opinion), from the straight up perspective and from the secondary opportunity perspective (chances for teaching or research) the "big school" is the SMART move.

Get your physics out of the way FIRST, alone... in a vacuum if you will. That was the reason I asked about your math... Get everything except O chem done then start what might be your last year with O chem (alone) with some pud courses like Western Civ. The second semester of O chem is the Ideal time to take the MCAT.

You will find dozens of posts around here recommending that order... I gotta agree with them! You have advantages.. your synapses are younger... you have not had to endure the abuse as mine (brain synapses) have (lets leave it at that)

As I have advised previously.... get a PLAN (in writing) and stick to it...

Yours always,

Richard



Naw, no frustration, just want to do medic school and ran out of excuses strong enough to skip it. Right, I understand that taking as many pre-med courses as possible at a 4-year is the best idea, however, I simply cannot transfer unless I have my year of biology done.

The only way I could have physics done beforehand, since I have to have biology done too, is if I took calc II, bio 1, speech (need it for my AS), a humanities course, and german next semester which is about 18 units...plus I want to do an advanced scuba course so that'd be 20 units, and then during paramedic school I'd still have to do bio 2 and physics 1 in the fall then bio 3 and physics 2 in the spring...I just don't see how that would be less vicious than just taking both physics and ochem at UCSB. I'm sure staying right around half-time won't be an issue while doing medic school, but 2 science classes with labs and one being notorious for being a time consumer...eh, I don't know about that.

Worst case scenario, if I did have to take both ochem and physics my first year at UCSB, I can switch to part-time status and just do maybe one shift a month, since on medic pay I'll be able to work enough during the summer and save up enough that I probably wouldn't need to work during the school year anyway.

I'm certainly open to suggestions, but I need a language and a humanities course to finish IGETC so that's 7 there, 3 bio classes for my year of bio, and a speech class for my AS degree, and then I'm taking the medic program from next july on up to the following february, so next fall semester I should be taking as easy a load as possible, and probably spring too since I'll need time to do my clinical rotations and field internships. And yes, University of California at Santa Barbara is who I'm referring to with UCSB.
26

It won’t let me edit my post so I’ll just add this real quick. I didn’t think of it, but I /could/ double major in something simple like psych or biopsych, and just transfer as a psych or biopsych major then declare double major later. This would allow me to take biology at UCSB and get physics out of the way beforehand.


Another option is I could still apply this year, get accepted, and then defer my acceptance for a year. I’m not sure how that’d work, or whether it’d exempt me from the fall 09 application requirement of having biology already done, but those are a couple options I thought of.

27

I took two consecutive semesters of Physics & OChem at the same time… a mistake for me (more so the second semester when the OChem lab condenses two semesters of lab content into one semester =P ).


Calc.-based Physics is a little easier if your Calculus is recent/solid… it simplifies the scritchins (that might be some sort of southernese for Algebra… not sure )


I thought about doing a biospsych major. I decided not to do it, but it isn’t a bad thought. Make sure it isn’t obligating you to course work you aren’t interested in… thats a recipe for mediocre grades and regrets. You sound very motivated & that is good. Try to resist the temptation to overdo it if you can. I have been (and am still in danger of being) my own worst enemy when it comes to piling on the workload. I inherited protestant work ethic on steroids from my family. I was in college for an unusually long time before I reconciled the guilt I felt for not living up to the macho “give 150%” ethos & what is actually realistic. I know better now, but I still feel like a slacker when I’m not taking at least 16 credits, working a 3/4-time job, and volunteering with [insert worthy NPO here].


My point (and reminder to myself): know your limits and try to stay just inside them. Better to shine brightly from a few small points than to gutter dimly from several…


Do the advance scuba course, though! It is important to do at least one fun thing just for yourself. If you can’t have just a little fun, why bother?


Other Tim

28

Richard,


I just want to add my two cents into the mix here and tell you how much I appreciate what you’ve put together here. It’s really fantastic, especially for someone like myself who needs to remind himself every once in awhile what needs to be done and why I’m doing it (I tend to lose focus and get bored “ADD” some call it).


Some of this is, in my opinion, priceless information that you normally would have to drop cash for, and even then it might not be delivered in a coherent manner.


This is information I will surely look to in the future from time to time just to give myself a kick in the arse and remember what it is I’m trying to do here.


There was a time when I was a huge SLACKER and did anything and everything to find the easy way out of dong what needs to be done. Now, with a two year old and a wife at home, I find myself working quite literally 12 hours a day, seven days a week without a single day off to make sure that my family’s quality of life is stable. It’s nice to see someone with similart experiences becoming so successful at what he puts his mind to. Hats off to you.

29

Richard,


I am a newcomer and have read several of your posts today. WOW!! You are amazing! I can really learn a lot from you!! …actually I’m wondering if you’d comment on this: (I tried to post it as a new thread but don’t think it did)


THANK YOU! THANK YOU! THANK YOU!


I’m 33 and currently teach private music lessons at a music store in my city.


At 18, I started as a pre-med at 4-year univ and went to school to earn a paramedic license at the same time. I worked as a paramedic for several years, and thoroughly enjoyed it, but quit undergrad because I was burnt out on school. My license didn’t transfer when I moved to KY and financially it wasn’t worth it for me to jump through hoops to get a KY license so I didn’t do it. I am a musician so I started teaching private lessons.


Last spring, after years of missing the medical field, I decided to go to nursing school and was accepted at local community college Assoc. Deg. program. I’m scheduled to start nursing classes in Jan, and have a prospective grad date Dec 2009. (It has been my plan since I’ve gone back to go on to BSN after I’m through with the ADN)


That’s where I am, however, the whole med-school thing keeps popping up in my mind and has since I started back.


This week I decided to at least lay my cards on the table and find out what my options are/what my best bet is.


I have 2 and a half years of credits that ended with no degree from before, (core science)and probably won’t transfer now because it’s been so long.


At the end of this semester I will have completed 23 credits this year (basic General reqs, and A&P)


Any ideas of where to start? And by start, where should I look to even find out what my options are if I continue in the nursing, then try to go on from there, or just nix the whole nursing and go the pre-med route.


I am so clueless and am open to suggestions at this point.


Any ideas?


Thanks!!!

30

Thank you so much for your kind and generous comments!


My circumstances are a little different even from others in this forum, kind of an “outlier” among a “cohort of outliers”.


In some ways my trip was easier for two very opposite reasons. I was in NO way considered “college material” from an early age, I could not have gotten in to any college short of a community college directly from high school even if I had attempted it (to this day I have NEVER taken ACT’s or SAT’s). The LACK of a college record from my teens was actually an advantage because unlike others there WERE NO academic indiscretions to “make up for”. On the other hand, because I had no whopping academic success with a degree (even an advanced one) in some other field, It was comparatively easy to completely turn my back on what I had and START OVER! The concept of starting over, that is whatever you have means almost NOTHING on THIS train, leaves many feeling a little bitter (and to some level entitled).


It is unfortunate that many who enter this race have already made some of the mistakes discussed in “the rules”, and (possibly) do not finish reading it through. But there is other stuff that is equally important, especially the stuff about attitude, hoops etc.


My last rule in not a load of bull, I still maintain that most who try can succeed IF (pretty big IF sometimes) they are willing to do what is necessary! If you will note, I have not masked my e-mail, this is no accident, I can usually find a few minutes for a word of encouragement or a “kick in the butt” as needed!


Yours,


Richard


FYI to those interested: I have just finished three interviews for residency… the more I learn the more I hanker to care for critically ill children… so it looks like the KU dual residency program in Internal Medicine and Pediatrics (“Med/Peds” for short).

31
  • Richard B Said:
Thank you so much for your kind and generous comments!

My circumstances are a little different even from others in this forum, kind of an “outlier” among a “cohort of outliers”.

In some ways my trip was easier for two very opposite reasons. I was in NO way considered "college material" from an early age, I could not have gotten in to any college short of a community college directly from high school even if I had attempted it (to this day I have NEVER taken ACT’s or SAT’s). The LACK of a college record from my teens was actually an advantage because unlike others there WERE NO academic indiscretions to “make up for”. On the other hand, because I had no whopping academic success with a degree (even an advanced one) in some other field, It was comparatively easy to completely turn my back on what I had and START OVER! The concept of starting over, that is whatever you have means almost NOTHING on THIS train, leaves many feeling a little bitter (and to some level entitled).

It is unfortunate that many who enter this race have already made some of the mistakes discussed in “the rules”, and (possibly) do not finish reading it through. But there is other stuff that is equally important, especially the stuff about attitude, hoops etc.

My last rule in not a load of bull, I still maintain that most who try can succeed IF (pretty big IF sometimes) they are willing to do what is necessary! If you will note, I have not masked my e-mail, this is no accident, I can usually find a few minutes for a word of encouragement or a “kick in the butt” as needed!

Yours,

Richard

FYI to those interested: I have just finished three interviews for residency… the more I learn the more I hanker to care for critically ill children… so it looks like the KU dual residency program in Internal Medicine and Pediatrics (“Med/Peds” for short).



Ironically, I had never gone to college before either and I have never taken the SAT or ACT in my life. Hell, for that matter, I hated my measly 12.65/hour job I had at the time, so it was pretty damn easy to walk away from it and go to college. I guess I don't feel too bad after reading that about not going to college sooner and waiting until I was out of HS for half a decade before getting off my ass...I'm very thankful I don't have a bad academic record to compensate for, screw that.
32

Tim,


I agree with your assessment!


The longer I hang around OPM, the more clearly I can appreciate that often NO record is in fact a “good record” for a variety of reasons, full financial aid portfolio, fewer “youthful indescretions” to “make up for” academically or otherwise, no baggage associated with how FAR you have to backtrack to take the “other fork in the road”, no emotional or ego " bitter pill to swallow" with regard to repeating perfectly good courses just because the freshness date expired.


Because this was my “first time”, it was not hard to maintain the high level of enthusiasm because I was wowed and thrilled by some new experience at practically every turn.


Sounds like you have just the right intensity of “fire in your belly”, the precise committment one needs… so without any further ceremony… GET IN THERE, do your homework, find out the proper steps in the proper order, make a stellar and written plan (build in flexibility, do not “rush it” but do not fear it) and then and only then get cracking ONE day at a time!


Let me know if I can be of further assistance!


Yours,


Richard

33

Hey Richard,


I just wanted to comment (and wish you luck on your residency interviews) that I think that it is great that you are moving in the direction of critically-ill children. It is actually my hope and intention to get my nursing experience in pediatrics. All Children’s Hospital in St. Petersburg has a real good nursing residency program that I’m going to look into. I’m always so impressed with how even the sickest of children will have such a positive outlook. I definitely think that I have a little more patients with the little ones than the big ones.


Kris

34
  • Richard B Said:
Tim,

I agree with your assessment!

The longer I hang around OPM, the more clearly I can appreciate that often NO record is in fact a "good record" for a variety of reasons, full financial aid portfolio, fewer "youthful indescretions" to "make up for" academically or otherwise, no baggage associated with how FAR you have to backtrack to take the "other fork in the road", no emotional or ego " bitter pill to swallow" with regard to repeating perfectly good courses just because the freshness date expired.

Because this was my "first time", it was not hard to maintain the high level of enthusiasm because I was wowed and thrilled by some new experience at practically every turn.

Sounds like you have just the right intensity of "fire in your belly", the precise committment one needs... so without any further ceremony... GET IN THERE, do your homework, find out the proper steps in the proper order, make a stellar and written plan (build in flexibility, do not "rush it" but do not fear it) and then and only then get cracking ONE day at a time!

Let me know if I can be of further assistance!

Yours,

Richard



That's the idea! I never took science in high school either, so actually learning all this science all at once is basically just one fascinating fact after another. I think after taking a year of general chemistry (I have 2 weeks left so meh, basically done), I understand a /lot/ more about everyday life and why things work the way they do, so it's actually been pretty cool. Granted, some of the stuff you learn in college you won't like...I don't have much love for half of the GE classes I took, and certain topics in chemistry such as electrochemistry and coordination chemistry I could just as soon live without, but that's part of learning something new is learning some stuff you don't like along with the stuff you DO like.

We'll see anyway...right now I'm just going to focus on getting my finals done and applying to AMR in Stockton county so I can get on a 911 rig...I'm tired of the transport thing, done it for four months now and I'm completely at ease around patients (hell I should be, I've teched over 50 calls), so it's about time I "upgrade" to 911.
35

Richard,


Thanks for sharing your advice and experiences. I do have a question about your rant against pre-professional clubs - how do you know they are so awful if you only went to one meeting? I have no experience with them at all, so I have absolutely no idea what they are really like. But it seems a bit unfair for you to rail against them like that based on attending one meeting of one club. JMO.

36
  • stubbylion Said:
Richard,

Thanks for sharing your advice and experiences. I do have a question about your rant against pre-professional clubs - how do you know they are so awful if you only went to one meeting? I have no experience with them at all, so I have absolutely no idea what they are really like. But it seems a bit unfair for you to rail against them like that based on attending one meeting of one club. JMO.



Do a search for pre-med clubs on SDN. You'll see an overwhelming majority of people who have experiences with pre-med clubs that were essentially a waste of time.
37

I think you probably have to evaluate each individual club on it’s own merits. Ohio State has a chapter of Alpha Epsilon Delta that seems to be pretty decent. Although I’ve never attended any of their meetings, I’ve always been impressed by their activities. They have had speakers on a variety of topics, they provide volunteering activities and raise money for the Physician’s Free Clinic, host an All-Ohio Pre-med Day with admissions representatives from all of the Ohio Medical schools with tours, demonstrations and lots of relevant sessions on that path to medical school.


Several of Richard’s points/complaints about pre-med clubs are definitely valid, but I encourage you to at least check out your local pre-med club and see if it has any redeeming value (if you are interested in it). Medical schools don’t place any kind of weight on whether or not you were involved in a pre-med club or not, so don’t feel like being involved or not involved will make any kind of difference on your med school application.

38

Howdy.


(Thanks Tim and Emergency)


Boy, I thought I sure left enough disclaimers! If you will notice the phrase “Everyone has different experiences with these”, “In MY OPINION ONLY” and the BIG ONE “If you like the “pre-professional” club thing and find them useful (and are NOT intimidated by the “posturing”), then by all means participate, they do have a useful purpose”.


I just found them a way to cast doubts on my own ability. BTW, it was the exact same thing in the “Pre-Nursing club”, which I did attend considerably. My take home message was intended to be this: DO NOT be around people or entities that might ROB precious enthusiasm or plant doubts in your heart regarding your ability.


In the same meeting there was a “special speaker”, the Douglas County Nurse manager for “Midland Hospice” recruiting “hospice volunteers” talking about what dying was like etc… she kept making eye contact… at the end she came up to me and said, “You look familiar, do I know you?”… “Well we may not have been formally introduced but last month, I was a competitor of yours… the Douglas County nurse manager for Heart of America Hospice…”

39

Kris,


My philosophy of enjoying the “trip” and careful observation for “new data” and being receptive to “adjustments” has once again proven some new “spice”! This might seem down right ODD, if you did not know me…


It was REALLY strange how this came down too (for the more spiritual among us it was almost like “someone” was trying to tell me something). From the very beginning from my FIRST day on this little trip, August 21, 2000 (my 38th birthday), I started at KU, I have always seen myself as a Family Medicine kinda guy. I still love the jack-of-all-trades and the constant variety (especially here in Kansas).


I came to the Wichita campus BECAUSE it is the “epicenter” of “Rural Family Practice” in the region, “Via Christi” is one of the first two or three FM residency programs in the nation. The President of the American Academy of Family Physicians our own Dr Rick Kellerman MD is the director of our Wichita “Department of Family and Community Medicine”. It would be just fine with me to STILL do that (I have applied to several FM programs). In fact, I am working on a Family Medicine sub-I NOW with the residency program I want (Via Christi of course)


All of the patient care I have ever done has involved mostly adults (a few kids as a Paramedic)… so despite having 6 kids of my own, I just did not know how I would LIKE pediatrics except as a proportion of a Family Practice.


Now we fast forward, I took my pediatric rotation off last year (nice thing about KUSM-Wichita… quite Mom and Pop, in that they are VERY flexible and “everyone knows your name”, 53 of us out of our class of 175 in Kansas City came here for the last two years) to buy our house here, then MOVE, then finish remodelling and sell our old place. I made it up this last October (after I had done a couple of 4th year rotations)


An odd thing happened, it seemed everything I touched turned to gold (grades, evaluations even the shelf exam). That has only happened a couple of other places like OB/GYN and Psychiatry. The last 10 days of the rotation I spent in the Pediatric ICU, I also had 3 “call-nights” too.


I met our Med/Peds residents, WOW… I was simply BLOWN AWAY, buy the skill and confidence of these guys and they loved to teach! I found wood on every pitch! Boy oh boy, to quote the old song by Jerry Reed (OK you guys STOP LAUGHING), “When you’re hot you’re hot”. The director told me that I seemed “a natural”, and he repeatedly told all around (again to me privately) that Med/Peds is really pretty “perfect” for a NICU or PICU type of gig.


OK, so in the last 10 days of my last 3rd year rotation, taken out of order 2 months into my fourth year, the “thing” happens…


I may have mentioned to you in another thread that I discovered that the very same “patients” (otherwise-known-as-the-f amily-member-around-the-b ed-in-need-of-emotional-s upport) skill set last used as a “hospice nurse” fit fabulously and effectively in the PICU. Possibly an advantage of being 45 father of 6 as much as a hospice nurse? I could plop myself easily in their shoes, like I had been there and done that (which of course, I HAVE). This strategy worked especially on families who had reputations of being “difficult” of “aggressive” (these parents I find more like “frightened”, “powerless” or “worn out”). These successes not only gained recognition but frankly I felt superb beyond measure being able to lift some of the burdens, regardless of little persons condition or outcome!


So, my plan is to rank Med/Peds first and a “particular” :wink: FM program here second… (or was that the other way around) WITH EQUAL DELIGHT (I only regret we are not allowed the rank programs “equal” and truly “flip the coin”! Match day while others will be thrilled at “WHERE”, I will get to discover “WHAT” as well!


Yours


Richard

40

Jerry Reed also sang “We’re gonna do what they say can’t be done…”


Very fitting idea for this whole forum!


Loves me some Jerry Reed!