Save time to go Carrib Med School?

What do you think of those Carribean med schools? I reviewed some doctors profiles in Thomas Jefferson’s Neurology category, there is this one Asian doc who did it in Ross Medical School and got internship and residency at Stony Brook and later also become a good neurologist in Thomas Jefferson. I am 43 and eager to progress in my journey of medicine. I kind of got tired of


having to retake org chem and upper-level classes.


If I can save time of two years, I would take Carribs and find a good residency place (I wonder how people can do that!)


Especially, New York, New Jersey seem to take foreign med graduates pretty openly.


I am afraid of getting tired and not be able to survive in this long journey so I am thinking of making it would be easier for me to just start Caribbean schools and save those time of biting


org chem books.

I’m not going to say anything pro or con about Carribean schools, but I will say that taking a shortcut, doesn’t necessarily mean you will get to your goal faster.


I think that you need to do a lot of research and speak with students that have attended. I know that one of the posters on this site (Bill) attended a Carribean school and is currently doing his third year in the states. His call used to be whuds, but he changed it and I can’t seem to remember it right off. (Someone help!).


I understand your rush being in my forties as well, but do yourself a favor and don’t short change yourself by trying to save time. Somehow whenever I’ve taken a shortcut, I seem to make the path even longer.


Kris

Bill Hudson goes by DRFP & is enrolled at St. James… as far as I can remember. He answered a few questions about Caribbean schools, and shared some well-earned opinions with me. He is definitely worth a conversation.


Tim

Same with me.


I have a friend at Ross. Her recommendations are to stay in the states because carib schools do not care about you. While their recruiters put on a great face the reality is once you get on the island it’s sink or swim. No catering, no hand holding. You either make it or you don’t.


There are a host of things you have to consider. I have noticed that many older applicants, older being older than I, seem to go the carib route because of time.


One thing I had noticed and it was confirmed at the OPM conference is that US schools are increasing class size and there are a few new schools, MD/DO, opening up. However the number of residencies are remaining constant…so more people for the same number of slots. So those foreign grads will have to be stellar.


With what I heard repeatedly in the conference is don’t hold your breath as a nontrad to be stellar. Average is okay and probably what you should expect. An average carib student isn’t going to impress residency directors.


As a disclaimer: I am not against carib schools nor carib graduates. I say go where you can get in. However try the US first. The carib is no joke. Beautiful scenery but it’s hell on earth because you’ll spend more time than normal studying. Not my words but paraphrased from my friend at Ross and a research tech who failed out of St. George’s.

  • croooz Said:
Same with me.

I have a friend at Ross. Her recommendations are to stay in the states because carib schools do not care about you. While their recruiters put on a great face the reality is once you get on the island it's sink or swim. No catering, no hand holding. You either make it or you don't.

There are a host of things you have to consider. I have noticed that many older applicants, older being older than I, seem to go the carib route because of time.

One thing I had noticed and it was confirmed at the OPM conference is that US schools are increasing class size and there are a few new schools, MD/DO, opening up. However the number of residencies are remaining constant.....so more people for the same number of slots. So those foreign grads will have to be stellar.

With what I heard repeatedly in the conference is don't hold your breath as a nontrad to be stellar. Average is okay and probably what you should expect. An average carib student isn't going to impress residency directors.

As a disclaimer: I am not against carib schools nor carib graduates. I say go where you can get in. However try the US first. The carib is no joke. Beautiful scenery but it's hell on earth because you'll spend more time than normal studying. Not my words but paraphrased from my friend at Ross and a research tech who failed out of St. George's.



You know, it's interesting that they wouldn't give a damn about the med students graduating, because realistically they will make more money if those med students are there the full four years instead of only part of it. So even from a business standpoint, that's just flat out stupid. I guess we just need to keep our fingers crossed when it comes to applying to US schools.

And I'll keep my fingers crossed that EM remains not-too-competitive (I know it's moderately competitive right now) so I can match into it.

Some schools have as much as 400 students/class, with 3 start dates. So 1200 students/year x $17,500/semester = $21,000,000/year…now why should they care if they have a revolving door? It’s all about the money. Especially for Ross it’s owned and operated by Devry which is a publically traded company. Basically it’s a cash cow.


Don’t get me wrong they do help if you’re having trouble. No where near the extent of US schools. Easy come, easy go. The attrition rate is ~50%. They’re going to have graduates and they are going to make tons of money.

  • croooz Said:
Some schools have as much as 400 students/class, with 3 start dates. So 1200 students/year x $17,500/semester = $21,000,000/year.....now why should they care if they have a revolving door? It's all about the money. Especially for Ross it's owned and operated by Devry which is a publically traded company. Basically it's a cash cow.

Don't get me wrong they do help if you're having trouble. No where near the extent of US schools. Easy come, easy go. The attrition rate is ~50%. They're going to have graduates and they are going to make tons of money.



Ok, say they start with 1200 students at $17,500 a semester, so like you said they're making $21,000,000 a year. Now say 300 of those students fall out after the first year. 2nd year, 900 students at $17,500 comes to another $15,750,000. Say another 300 fall out in 3rd and 4th year since you said the attrition rates are around 50%. So that's $21,000,000 for /two/ years. Granted, $57,750,000 is a lot of money for four years. But say they reduced their attrition rate to only 25%, they'd make $68,250,000. So even with 25% attrition (which is high), they're losing as much as 11 million dollars. If it's a cash cow, it's accomplishing that regardless, but as a business, well....that's bad business.

One reason (I think) they don’t care so much about attrition in the first two years is because if they kept all of those students, they probably wouldn’t be able to find clinical placements for all of them. So, they get the best of both worlds. They get the first year or so of tuition out of the ones that can’t hack it, and get to pare their numbers down to where they can place them all.


Perhaps Bill can comment on this when he takes a break from studying for step 1. In the meantime sunlight, there are a couple of very lengthy discussions on caribbean schools on here that would be worth digging up. I believe one of them is in the med students forum.

Why bad business? Every semester they have a new influx. They have no need to keep people because that would cost money. For every person, man/hour, facilities…that they have to spend money on to keep people that’s money they lose. So sure they’re not losing money by not keeping people because they would lose even more money by keeping them.


What Amy said is right. They have very limited space for clinicals and if every single student made it to 3rd year there would be a lot not getting clinical slots. The schools count on this. They have too because time has proven how many students will quit.


I say it’s a great business because they’ve accounted for the attrition. $21mil/year guaranteed.

Hmm. Well, yeah, both you and Amy make good points. It doesn’t exactly paint a rosy picture of the Carib med schools, but hopefully none of us will have to resort to going to one to begin with.


Hell, I’ve already dropped all pretenses or desires to apply at a “big name” med school. I could give a damn about Harvard or Stanford. If the med school I go to has damn good clinical training, well hell, that’s what I’m after anyway. I want to end up working as an ER doc at a trauma center (at LEAST level 2 if not level 1) and I really doubt the people who come in through those double doors are gonna give a damn where I went to med school as long as I provide excellent care.

Well…I’m applying to the top programs as well as middle tier…as well as bottom tier… Not so much because I believe I have a shot at Hahvahd but mainly because a program can’t accept/reject your application if you don’t apply. You can’t win if you don’t buy a ticket.

  • croooz Said:
Well.....I'm applying to the top programs as well as middle tier....as well as bottom tier..... Not so much because I believe I have a shot at Hahvahd but mainly because a program can't accept/reject your application if you don't apply. You can't win if you don't buy a ticket.



Still costs you money to apply there. what I'll actually probably do when it comes time to applying is specifically target schools with cirriculums that do NOT use PBL; regardless of whether they're a top name, middle tier or whatever. I've read and heard enough about PBL to never want to have anything to do with it. I don't plan to apply to any school that has research as a graduation requirement, either. Don't give a damn about research.

My feeling is what is your goal, You can go to a Caribbean school and do fine if your goal is Primary care. If you go, go to a Big 4 school: Ross, SGU, SABA and or AUC. these schools will give you all 50 US states to practice in. It’s easier to be accepted but it can be harder in other ways, when you are accepted to a US school your skills are usually up to the task as far as knowledge and study abilities, med school is a marathon of information you have to digest and then spit out on the step one and in clinicals and after ward. If you can do this and are disciplined then doesn’t matter if in the states or Caribbean you will succeed.


Primary care positions are the ones filled by Caribbean students and the other more competitive residencies will be harder but not 100% out of reach with a good step one score.


SJSM where I am, I can practice in about 46 states or so (Not California or Kansas since they have rules about approvals) I’m set up in GA for clinicals and residency already.


Bill.

I think they do not “Care” about the students because in a way it’s the system, instead of weed out before admission to the programs, the students that do not work hard and study are weeded out during the program, in other words they are given a chance to study medicine and IMO no one can make you learn but YOU. SO in the end you have to bust butt and learn, if you go through basic sci and forget then you bust butt in review like I’m doing now, every day is 8 to 12 hours of study time for me now, review and review do more questions and find out you need more review. the ones who are dead serious will succeed IMO, school cares or do not cares it’s YOU that needs to care.


Just my 2 cents

Bill,


You make a valuable point that can be broadly applied to the entire medical education & training process. At this level of education, the turnkey element is YOU & your dedication to learning, self-teaching & your profession. The US education system does not really reinforce or reward those characterisitcs as well as it should. However, succeeding in medical school and, more importantly, succeeding as a resident & independent physician MANDATE that you are capable of teaching yourself. This requires substantial self-discipline & a willingness to sacrifice personal free time that would be a hell of lot more fun spent elsewhere reading textbooks & journals to keep yourself up to date.


Most professions do not require this sort of dedication to continual education. You can muddle along through a career with minimal continuing education. In medicine, you will very rapidly fall behind the curve & eventually become a dangerous liability to your patients & your partners if you do not keep your edge whoned sharp.


US-based med schools are much more apt to provide assistance, sometimes intensive levels of assistance to get their students through. These programs have committed tremendous amounts of money & resources to those they admit. And, if you struggle AND show drive/initiative, they will bend over backwards to help you. But, if you are lazy, immature or project an air of entitlement, you will get booted.


As Bill says, the weedout occurs prior to admission for US-programs. In the Carib, their admissions thresholds tend to be substantially lower. However, to make it through requires a lot of gumption - it is a hard row they have to hoe.

I am a Ross student myself and I disagree with Croooz that Ross doesn’t care about their students. I transferred from another off shore school who’s administration did not care about students. There are differences. First off, stay in the states if you can, it will be the easiest in the long run in terms of financing your education. However, if you DO go to Ross or one of the Big Three Carib schools (AUC, St. Georges, Ross) you can still get US Federal Financial aid and a good education. However, you will STILL need to take Orgo and all of the same classes as you do in the states. If you are looking at an offshore school that says it doesn’t require Orgo, then don’t go. You won’t pass Step 1 if you don’t know Orgo, which is the basis of Biochem, which is basically the root of all theoretical medical school knowledge. The ONLY short cut going Carib is the application year, and that is not much time to save. Back to the comments about Ross: they are quite proud of their USMLE passing rate (my roommate passed the first time with a 250, and she was also a St. Chris transfer), their teachers are excellent, and they have great clinical locations. Because I transferred into Ross for my fifth semester, the Miami portion of the program, I can tell you: the docs there are quite serious and will not tolerate slackers who do not care. Best of luck whichever route you take!

Correction. I don’t think anything about Ross. My information comes from a student currently there and a former student. The information I’ve gotten points to exactly what OMD mentioned which is the carib schools foster a strong work ethic which seems to be a double-edged sword. Those who step up to the challenge do quite well and those who don’t…dont’.


It’s one path. However it should not be taken lightly. Simply taking the carib route to save time IMO is a mistake. The carib is not a shortcut nor an easier path. It might get one to their goal quicker but it does limit the end product of which type of specialty one can practice in.

Hello. I’m new to OPM and saw this topic with interest. Now that I’m mentally revved up for med school, I just want to get there.


I have a BS in EE. The science is too old to count. I plan to take two classes at a time – Physics, Chemistries, Organics & Biologies – while working full time. The local college has none of these classes during the summer. So, the soonest I can complete them (without quitting my job) is Spring '09. I can take the MCAT around the same time, but then must apply to start in Fall '10. I saw that, if I go the Carib route, I can start in Fall '09. Being a bit long in the tooth (I’ll soon be 39), that extra year is important.


But, thanks to you guys, I see that I might lose part of that time due to clinical rotation difficulties.


I’m sure I’m not the only one thinking about this. Does anyone see a better solution? I’m open to suggestions.


Thanks,


Angela

Angela, one year does not make a difference, at least not NEARLY as much as a U.S. vs. non-U.S. degree.


When I started this path (10 years ago) I too felt very impatient, wanted to get in sooner, get done faster. I can tell you now from where I sit that the year wouldn’t have made the tiniest bit of difference. It’s much more important to apply yourself, do REALLY well, and have some predictability and control of your life. If you’ve been browsing these boards for even a few days you’ve probably come across the phrase, “It’s a marathon, not a sprint.” Keep that in mind, and try not to gag after you hear someone say it for about the 50th time!


I was fortunate to be able to attend medical school and residency without disrupting / uprooting my family. This was HUGE for me and well worth that additional year, if you want to look at it that way. If I’d been away from my husband and kids for some portion of the first two years, studying somewhere in the Carib, and then bouncing around to different places in the U.S. for my clinicals, I doubt I would’ve been as happy or stable and that’s important when you’re doing something as intense as medical school. Furthermore, my residency program, while it does take some overseas grads, definitely ranks them lower generally and I might not have gotten the program I wanted.


Carib is the option to consider when you really feel you have tapped out your U.S. options, NOT the one to think of first as you get into all of this. This is a path well worth taking without any short cuts. Good luck!


Mary

If you stick around long enough you will notice that “one more year ain’t gonna matter” is the norm. I asked at the OPM conference and that was the answer. Better to do well and postpone things for a year than to do okay and get in now.


Especially when it comes to the carib if you are going simply because it will accelerate things by 1 year then IMO it’s just not worth it. Go to the carib if the US is out. Don’t go the carib route simply because you want to speed up the timetable.


What I keep hearing from every nontrad med student, resident, and attending is don’t rush. You’re not getting any younger but med school isn’t going anywhere. If your dream is to become a doctor why jeopardize it? Many a nontrad have latched themselves to a ball & chain by taking on too much too soon in the hopes of catching up where they “should be” at this point in their life.


Like the gentlemen at the OPM conference said if the US schools don’t even bother with you then go carib. I would disagree with him and say apply year 1 to all US schools and if no acceptance, then think about carib. He recommended applying to US and foreign at the same time and just go wherever you’re accepted and not “waste” a year. For some they don’t want to wait. The one friend I have at Ross admitted, only just yesterday, that she should’ve just presented proof of her learning disability, retaken the MCAT under those conditions, and stayed US. She loves the fact she’s going to be a doc but she says that med school is brutal enough.