Hey I agree with you and with the changing tide schools even like mine may change and it become harder for these students to ever be accepted.
Hey if they cannot pass in school, cannot pass in medschool then why accept them? It’s a waste of effort and time. Look in some ways I agree more then disagree, but you know I’m a little rebel at heart, I am from Atlanta Georgia LOL…
This is very true, especialy in regards to Germany. Pretty much your future is set in the fourth to sixth grade!!! It is at that time, depending on how a child is doing in school, whether or not they will get into a high school that will launch them in the University system. If you are a late bloomer…forget about it.
Also, I don’t even think there is a category called non-traditional students in Germany. My niece who is 13 is already taking classes in Physics and Chemistry.
My Father inlaw who is a Physician went to Germany at 38 for Medical school in 1966, so I think that maybe they do allow older students study? But hey I really do not Know, These Caribbean schools are allowing those who would have great difficulty studying medicine (not just because of grades) the chance to study medicine but in the future this door may be closer to being closed…
Okay, the question is then…was your father an IMG? I’m sure that when $$$ comes into it, yes, maybe non-trads can get in…but then again, you did say this was in 1966 (over 40 years ago). A lot has happened in Germany over the past 41 years.
Tell me of non-traditional students (native, mind you) who were able to change their careers.
He was an FMG, (US citzen going to a medical school abroad) (IMG is a non US citizen) and could not speak German but was admitted, I have seen his MD degree in German and he was an attending at Bellevue Ny. I was just telling you what he did and I think as he does anyone can do anything if they truly work for it. Sorry it was so long ago but I thought it was a good story of a FMG, even if it was years ago…
Again, for those applying from “other” countries it is a whole different issue…for locals forge it…non-trads face a huge uphill battle.
Sorry about the confusion with the IMG/FMG… still new to the lingo.
But the point still is that for a native of Germany, it is very, very rare that a nontrad will be able to change their careers. Unfortunately, that is just the way it is.
Like I mentioned earlier, I have family in Germany (stepsister and her family), and I’ve always been curious about the educational system there.
I’m more and more appreciative that I live in the US where the option to go back to school and change your career is very possible.
Yeah there is a girl from Germany in her 30’s in the class below mine.
AS Far as lingo well it gets mixed up even the NRMP in 2006 defined it the way I did but a report I read in 2005 lumped them all together as IMG’s LOL YOu know I like the definition I have from the 2006 version because it’s better to keep them straight…
So…This is what I get from this thread after I posted my opinion:
Volunteering and shadowing are just a checklist of things to do so may not be that important.
The USA is the Most NonTrad friendly.
Well I’m a little disappointed because I think one should embrace that path and enjoy all parts. To find the enjoyment try to make the choices that help you enjoy it.
While I do not enjoy Basic Science I enjoy learning and passing the tests, to pass tests and prove I’m worthy is a great feeling. ( any way without pain how do you know Joy? oh the pain LOL)
Also while the USA may be NonTrad friendly so is the Caribbean Croooz helped me out with some 1st match stats that shows the FMG/IMG match rates for the ones who matched and I’m about ready to post those in the Caribbean thread, really it’s not as bleak as people make it out to be.
Any way do not make anything out of this it is just my opinion. (of course I do not think less of anyone, I never do, I respect that others think different . It’s cool)
shrugs if it wasn’t so damn elusive to find a doc who will let you shadow then I would have a much more positive outlook on it. 
volunteering is fine as a requirement because you are actually allowed to do it, but requiring you to shadow is like requiring a soldier to go to war with no rifle…you need it but you dont have it so guess yer just screwed.
Yeah TIM I have to admit that SHadowing is one thing that maybe should be dropped and that Patient contact/ experience I think is more needed. But thats my thought…
I have almost no shadowing. My brother let me watch a 15 minute procedure at his clinic once. I think that’s about it.
But my volunteer job involved a lot of patient contact; basically I hung out in the infusion clinic and chatted with bored people chained to their infusion chairs. The nurses were glad I was there 'cuz it freed them up.
Anyway I got into 5 D.O. schools so I guess it was considered good enough.
Well, works for me ttraub…I’m an EMT student currently so if that doesn’t display that I’ve experienced what patient care is all about (considering I’ll be a health care provider) then I guess some people just can’t be pleased. 
Agreed Whuds. I mean honestly, if shadowing was as painless to do as volunteering, I wouldn’t have any opposition to it. Hoop or not, if it’s not going to be a nightmare to get done, it’s just a task so why stress over it.
I honestly think any pre-med should have EMT experience instead of shadowing…I’ve learned so much about medicine and practical/clinical application already that it’s incredible that EMT (or paramedic) isn’t a requirement.
I agree about healthcare experience. The trend is funny to me…PA schools are reducing their medical experience requirement and some med schools are opting for more.
I wanted to praise all who are discussing this open and I have learned some things and thought about some things, sometimes I just feel the need to grow and test my feelings on an opinion, I love OPM because most of us understand that.
For those interested in why our system is the way it is, I recommend Paul Starr’s classic history The Transformation of American Medicine-- http://www.amazon.com/Social-Transformation -American-Medicine/dp/046 5079350 . The key event leading to why you have to take the MCAT and why you have to be a college grad and why admissions are so limited was the Flexner Report; more info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexner_Report
In the 19th century, medical education was basically a free-for-all, run for profit, with wildly varying standards. The Flexner Report represented the moment at which American medical education became affiliated with universities, run as a coordinated academic effort with increasingly shared standards.
The effect of this change on the profession was complex; among other things, it:
- Made scientific rigor and academic accomplishment more a part of medical education, and created strong standards for medical education;
- limited the supply of doctors and thereby increased the prestige and income associated with the medical profession considerably over its status in the 19th century;
- allowed small elites to determine who could become a doctor and thereby severely limited the number of working-class men (what the Flexner Report described as “poor boys”) who could become doctors, and allowed the imposition of a more-or-less formal quota on women (limited to 5% of the profession for much of the 20th century), firm quotas on admissions of Jews, and the exclusion of African American doctors (the Flexner Report suggested that training “Negro” “sanitarians”–that is, public health workers–would be of more benefit to “Negroes” than training doctors, and that the few “Negro” doctors trained should be trained in fields like public health and infectious disease rather than things like surgery) and other people of color; and
- created the conditions in which this much smaller group of medical schools could agree on common standards for admissions.
Because of this and other social and historical trends, this also meant that fields like osteopathy–which had been competitors and had their own educational systems–either eventually had to join this new system of power or completely defy it (as with homeopathy).
Over time these changes in medical education led to the MCAT, whose only purpose and only predictive value remains predicting who is more likely to drop out of medical school–and who is more likely to pass the USMLE. There had been no economic interest in this kind of test earlier–because with many med schools, run for profit, the interest was in finding students not in excluding them. Because there were now a much smaller number of schools, many of which were no longer run for profit, it now became much more important for those running medical education to ensure that those who were admitted actually graduated. This ensured that the process had less waste–if medical education was no longer way to create profit, but rather, to create a now-smaller and more profitable profession–making sure that the investment in medical education was well-spent became more important.
The medical school interview is, I think, an outgrowth of the college interview, which in turn was a way for Ivy League colleges to try to overcome their “problem” of a high number of qualified Jewish applicants–for a history of the college interview, see Malcolm Gladwell’s article in the New Yorker: http://www.newyorker.com/critics/atlarge/artic les/051010crat_atlarge
Medical school interviews allowed med schools to ensure that they had the “right sort of fellow” coming to their schools. (Any city–Boston, New York, Denver, and many others–with a hospital with a Jewish name–e.g., Beth Israel–bears the mark of another part of this history, in which Christian doctors refused to give Jewish doctors admitting privileges at big hospitals, which made urban practice very difficult for them. So they built their own hospitals.)
Now I’ve gone far afield from whether shadowing is a good idea. To return to that more basic question–each part of the process reflects economic, academic and political agendas. So, I do tend to be a little cynical about the admissions process.
But at the same time, would we really want to let people come to medical school who had never volunteered, done research or anything else related to medicine except taking o-chem and the MCAT? If medical admissions are to be limited at least it’s not like the LSAT which is so absolute and reductionist as to be absurd. If medical education is based on elitist and exclusionary premises, at least the elitism and exclusion should be based on something more than a single test.
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I have to say I am totally enjoying this forum. You all are very thoughtful about this process and respectful of others’ views - how refreshing! Maybe it is the maturity factor.
I can tell you about how the MCAT is used - as you know we are a country that loves testing - metrics, standardization, etc. something from the institutionalization of America in the 50s. But we are stuck with it. I am a “bad test taker.” But I figured out how to ace a standardized test - know the material!! The difficulty is being interested in the material to really know it. But the MCAT is the best surrogate for determining how you are going to do on other standardized tests. For example, a study was published that shows that if you get a 6 in any of the subject tests, that is associated with something like a 25% risk of failure - now the converse isthat there isa 75% chance of success. Regardless of how you want to spin statistics, lower scores below a certain level are associated with a greater risk of failure. A correlation coefficient was calculated for MCAT vs. GPA and success on USMLE Step 1. The MCAT had a correlation coefficient of .75, GPA .48, and MCAT + GPA .78. You don’t want to waste a lot of time and money on med school if you are not going to get a license. Now, here is a secret - I took statistics three times and got 3 A’s. I have no idea what a correlation coefficient is, but the great thing about being a doctor, is that someone else does all that interpretation for you, and you get to read the results. 
You all are absolutely right - admission to medical school can seem pretty arbitrary - all schools use cutoffs, but they can’t tell you that, so they won’t. Everyone is looking for kind, introspective, respectful, insightful, smart, articulate people that can get along with others. If you are all those things, don’t beat yourself up - just study and relax when you go and take the test. But if you are lacking in any of those areas, DON’T BLAME THE MED SCHOOL!!!
With regard to D.O. schools - don’t fall into the trap of slamming allopathic schools because your MCATs are low. Both M.D. and D.O schools are looking at the “whole” person. Both M.D. and D.O. schools have a basic science curriculum and a clinical curriculum and both have standardized licensing exams. There is a shift toward measuring professionalism and clinical/communication skills as evidenced by the Step 2 clinical skills (vs. clinical knowledge), so the things that you don’t like about med schools, i.e., the emphasis on memorization and book knowledge, is already being addressed. D.O. schools may be easier for some people to get into, but if you are an ax-murderer, you still won’t get in. And this is true even if you have a lot of money. On the other hand, don’t slam D.O. schools as being inferior academically - we use the same books, you know. Same anatomy, same physiology, etc.
I can’t tell you how much respect I have for you all, making this conscious effort to go back to med school. It is not a game to those of us who teach med students and take care of patients. It may seem like there are boxes to check but that is not for the sake of checking them. If you got in without shadowing, there must be something else about you - be honest - what was it?! But also be humble. You don’t want to mislead people into thinking ANYONE can get in without shadowing. And here is my final helpful hint - if you shadow a doctor or work in a clinical setting, and you study for the MCAT - if you can apply your patients to the material, then you will never forget the material - especially basic sciences - that is the reason why you want to see patients - you want knowledge to be relevant.
I hope DRFP means you are are an FP doctor - your comments are well-thought out and you sound like a perfect primary care doctor that can touch a lot of lives.
And good luck to the people counting down to the MCAT - you know about all the free stuff you can get online, right?
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As far as the rest of the world no such test as the MCAT is used.
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This is completely untrue. In Brazil, the ONLY determinant as to whether you will be admitted to medical school is a sky-high score on the competitive qualifying national examination. That and a high-school diploma gets you in.
“This is completely untrue. In Brazil, the ONLY determinant as to whether you will be admitted to medical school is a sky-high score on the competitive qualifying national examination. That and a high-school diploma gets you in.”
True; I wonder why so many are always bashing the US system for relying on tests when other countries do so to a much greater degree,even to the point of determining what a person will be allowed to do with the rest of his life on the basis of a series of exams given in roughly the middle-school level. An Indian doctor at my workplace told me that in India, admission to med school is based solely on numbers–no interviews, essays, EC’s, or anthing like that. They literally just rank all applicants by test scores and grades, and then accept the top X# of students.
(PS: What happened to all the markup options? My quote and italic tags didn’t work.)
Just for kicks I decided to see what the testing requirements would be to attend medical school in England (where, as in Brazil, you start right out of high school). Below I have copied the testing requirements for an American high school grad to consider applying to Oxford in medicine. It’s INTENSE-- give me the MCAT any day!
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US qualifications
Successful candidates would typically have an excellent High School record supplemented by SAT 1 scores of at least 1400 in Critical Reading and Mathematics and preferably also 700 or more in the new Writing Paper, giving a combined score of at least 2100, or ACT with a score of at least 32 out of 36. We would also expect Grades 4 or 5 in two or more Advanced Placement tests in appropriate subjects or SAT II in a good spread of three or four subjects at 700 or better.
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