very discouraged - need a pep talk please

I'm 40, already have a PhD in chemistry, planning on applying this year for med school in 2004. I am finishing my biology prereqs and getting straight As, enjoying it. But I am strapped for cash, and I am looking for part-time work.
I thought, if I go to the science faculty here at the university, they won't get intimidated by my degree (a problem elsewhere), and they'll be willing to give me a job bottle-washing; all I need is some money, I don't expect a big salary. Today one of my TAs graciously introduced me to a faculty member who was perhaps interested in me working in his lab.
Imagine my surprise when the conversation became, you won't like med school, there will be too much silly stuff for you, you are so far beyond that, lots of doctors don't make much money, it's a bad financial move; forget about research, you're too old to start over in a new field, the most you could ever hope for would be to end up as someone else's postdoc and then your salary will be capped at $40-50K; make up your mind, there's no more time to waste, better study 12-14 hours a day for the MCAT, forget about working, just focus on that. I left the interview feeling quite shaken and awful. Even the most aggressive faculty at my top-tier graduate school were never that negative. But I am sure he thought he was doing me a favor.
So I need some encouragement, please. I know that all of what he said is true, to some extent. These are the very same thoughts that keep me awake at night, on the roller-coaster of trying to decide whether I am doing the right thing. Financially, it is a loser, no question. I am not absolutely sure that I want to go to med school - in my experience, I am never absolutely sure of anything, but I do it anyway. I am trying to tell myself that this is just one more opportunity to deal with negativity and come out of it more certain about what I want to do, and to face all my own fears about these decisions. But it is awfully difficult to be so positive, when someone closer to the field is so discouraging.
thanks in advance

Hi Meowmix:
As a graduate student finishing up my Master’s degree, I can definitely tell you that I have encountered one or two people who’ve had the same attitude. One prof on my committee went so far as to tell me that physicians weren’t as smart as scientists, didn’t understand the science underlying the physiology, and that I could do perfectly well as a Ph.D. instead. When I mentioned that I wanted to do research as an M.D., he further commented that M.D.'s didn’t do good research either! Go tell that to Rod McKinnon @ Rockefeller!
follow your dream and don’t let folks like this stand in your way. You’ll be happy as long as you’re doing what you love to do, be it on a bench or in a clinic. Besides, maybe he was a bitter, “failed” pre-med who was intimidated that you are brave and crazy enough to follow your dream!
Go see “Rudy,” and you’ll see what I mean.
Pete

Meow:
Don’t feel so frustrated. We all have the same obstacles to overcome; they’re just presented a little different for each of us. 40 is hardly old, you will get out of med school and residency (depending on your specialty) with enough time to give you at least 10-15 years of good practice time.
As far as the job thing goes, yes you can get a job and study for the MCAT a few hours here and there. Those people who tell you you can’t are rediculous. Tell them to take some Thorazine to make their voices go away. I think that med school advice should only come from your closes friends/family. Anyone else that gives you advice as other factors involved influencing their response (mostly ego). Anyone that tells you you can’t is trying to make themselves feel smarter or better. People will tell you “let’s be ‘realistic’ here”. Give me a break. You can be whatever you want to. Just let the numbers get you in the door, and tell them how you feel. The interview is very big.
I’m not sure where you live, but the job market is your ONLY limitation as far as working and preparing for med school. Everyone must live while they prepare for med school. I don’t know what these people are thinking when they say you can’t work and study at the same time.
Good luck, I’m sure you’ll do fine. If you really want to be a doctor, the interviewers will see it (and probably not only accept you, but try to sell THEIR school to you!)

Hey Meow,
Screw him. He sounds like a numbnut. If med school is what you want to do, do it. Physician’s, particularly academic physicians, aren’t going to be rich but neither is anyone else in academics. You’ll still make a pretty good salary, especially if you are in clinic part of the time.
Regarding research, there are tons of training possibilities out there. Many are built into residency or felowship programs. Here is a link to one I know of.Physician scientist training programNot to mention the fact that I’m pretty sure that in your PhD you had some trainng in research design, statistical analysis…and that it is far beyond anything you will get in med school. Also, if it is human based research that you want to do you will have a much easier time with an MD as opposed to a PhD.
Since I haven’t taken the test yet I don’t know for sure about the MCAT. However, it is not in my plans to study 12 hrs a day for it. With your background I bet you won’t have to either.
Maybe he was trying to do you a favor but it shure doesn’t sound like much of one. I don’t know where you are at but most large universities and university medical centers have a surplus of technician jobs. Even if you don’t have experience or training in molecular techniques (I say this because they seem to be what is in demand at my place of employment) I bet you can pick them up very fastand could convince someone to take you on as a part time entry or mid level tech. Have you tried going to the department offices and asking what positions are open for tech jobs? That was how I got my job. I tried initially going through the university’s human resources but they are not very efficient. I was told by some scientists that going door to door was the way to go.
Keep at it. Don’t listen to the naysayers!
Damon

I understand exactly what you are going through. I applied at 37, and people thought I was nuts. I have a Masters in Epidemiology, and at the same time I was applying to med school I was offered a GREAT position. I had to seriously consider that my income would drop precipitously (to zero), that I would be starting over, etcetera, etcetera. But… I knew what I wanted to do. I didn’t study 12-14 hours a day for my MCATs, since I was working 40+ hours a week. I did take a week off to study before the August exam. (I DID take a Kaplan course, to guide me). The bottom line was I wanted to be a physician.
It IS true that in med school you DON’T go into the same depth on each subject that you would if you were in a more narrow area, as in grad school, and the “overview” approach of first year can be frustrating, but I keep it in perspective of the final goal.
I don’t think you ever know for CERTAIN that you want to do something- it is a big step and uncertainty is natural. But in 10 years, what do you really want to be doing? What is going to bring you joy? That is what you need to do. Don’t listen to these naysayers who don’t know you, or what is best for you. They have their own biases. Maybe this interviewer had thought about med school but talked themselves out of it and is trying to justify their own decision. Who knows? You can do this, though if it is what you want to do. Fear and anxiety about the decision are natural- don’t let them make the decision for you.
Good luck with whatever you decide. rolleyes.gif

Well, everyone has stolen part of my thunder, but seriously, don’t do something you have major reservations about doing. Understand, you haven’t even taken the MCAT yet, nor interviewed, let alone applied. So you really have nothing upon which to base a reasoned opinion…except fear.
So take the baby steps and check yourself along the way. You might get to the point where you just say: f it, I am doing this. Then go ahead. No one here is going to stop you or put you own for doing so.
I am 38 and have 4 kids. Apply for the 3rd time this summer. I am in a BMS proving ground since everyone told me to give them a better reason to get off the wait list. In the meantime, I was offered a PhD spot at Vanderbilt in Virology. Someone is noticing me… blink.gif
Take a step or two…you’ll do fine one way or the other.

A lot of people, both PhDs and MDs, told me that I was too smart to get an MD–talk about a back-handed compliment. My research mentor in particular spent a lot of time trying to talk me out of it and into a PhD, which was difficult because I really respected her. On the other hand, there was one PhD who said, get an MD. Surprised to hear this, I said, why? He said, look, I work on molecular events leading to septic shock. Every time I fill out a grant I say the reason I'm doing this work is to get insights into septic shock. But I've never seen a case of septic shock in my life.
Another guy, an MD/PhD, told me to get a PhD. He said, do you really want to spend time talking to people about, This one's the red pill, this one's the white pill, take the red pill three times a day and the white pill in the evening?
I thought about it and compared it to the alternative. Would I rather say here's the red pill, here's the white pill, and then fill out reimbursement forms, or would I rather pipette stuff into tubes and fill out my lab notebook? Every field has its grunt work. I'd rather do the medical grunt work than the scientific grunt work, even though I really love the ideas of science. I don't particularly enjoy the daily work of science, though, and I think you have to love that to really enjoy being a scientist. And every field has its wonderful moments, and I think I'd be more spiritually and emotionally enriched by the wonderful moments of medicine than I would be intellectually enriched by the wonderful moments of science. I still feel like there is plenty to chew on intellectually in medicine and if I want to return to the lab I can.
Do what makes you happy; life is too short to do anything else.
Good luck.
–boston joe

From what you have said, this sounds to me like they're trying to recruit you. Trash the other side and play on your strings. They must want you for a reason, which would obviously be what you bring to the table. I think you will do well in whichever you choose - but choose wisely.

QUOTE (meowmix @ Feb 19 2003, 11:20 PM)

Imagine my surprise when the conversation became, you won't like med school, there will be too much silly stuff for you, you are so far beyond that, lots of doctors don't make much money, it's a bad financial move; forget about research, you're too old to start over in a new field, the most you could ever hope for would be to end up as someone else's postdoc and then your salary will be capped at $40-50K; make up your mind, there's no more time to waste, better study 12-14 hours a day for the MCAT, forget about working, just focus on that. I left the interview feeling quite shaken and awful. Even the most aggressive faculty at my top-tier graduate school were never that negative. But I am sure he thought he was doing me a favor.

Hi there,
I am 50 years old and presently a PGY-1 resident in the General Surgery Department at the University of Virginia. If you do the math, you can see that I started this process well beyond the age of 40. I left a position as reseach associate and assistant professor in the departments of Biology and Chemistry at George Washington University. My research was in both the Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and the Department of Physiology and Experimental Medicine. My biggest supporter was my Department Chairs in both Biochemistry and Physiology. One was a Ph.D and the other was an MD. Both not only encouraged me to seek admission to medical school, they wrote great letters of recommendation and were very proud of me along the entire path. Both of my chairmen are internationally and nationally recognized researchers in their respective fields. It is a testament to their professionalism and stature that they did not have any need to "tear me down for ego purposes" or "tell me about my limits". My MD chairman is a nationally recognized cardiologist and was totally disappointed that I wasn't going into cardiology when I graduated from medical school. Not only was I able to have a choice of medical schools to attend, I ended up with very generous scholarships and very little debt post graduation.
When you get discouraging news, you need to look carefully at the source. Is there a motive in this person "jolting you back to reality"? Is this a person who attempted to gain entry into medical school and finally "settled" for a Ph.D? If I am not too old at age 50 to do a residency that is physically and emotionally challenging for a 25-year-old, how can you be too old at age 40 to do the same if you choose?
Reality check here: If you are interested in medicine and attending medical school for entry into the country club or jet set, you are going to be sadly mistaken. If you are anticipating that you will instantly become a "member of an elite society", you are going to be disappointed with medicine. If you are interested in having a career that is a "total blast" every day, you are going to love medicine. You will be out of the job market for four years. I have found that I have lost nothing. Even my retirement plan picked up after four years of medical school when I started working as a resident. I lost very little in not working those four years.
The MCAT is a fact of life in applying for medical school. It does not require 12-14 hours a day of study or at least for me (100 IQ) it did not require 12-14 hours a day of study. My best MCAT prep turned out to be my study for my comprehensive/qualifying exam in my graduate program. I took my comprehensive/qualifying exam in July and my MCAT in August. I simply set out, applied to medical school, took the MCAT, worked on my reseach, taught my students and got into medical school. I didn't look for anyone's approval for what I wanted to do.
In short, people are not going to tell you what you "want" to hear all of the time. If there was anything usefulf out of this interview, grab it and disgard the rest. Some people have "agendas" that are based on their own frustrations and feelings of inadequacy. In this business, you have to ignore them and live your life and dream according to your needs. After all, it is your dream not theirs. Can you get into medical school at age 40? Yes, there are enough of us around who have gotten in at age 40 and above. A few of us have gotten out too! rolleyes.gif
Keep plugging away and be selfish about your life and dream. Nurture yourself and your needs. If you need a job making a little money, go for that job and don't seek approval for your course of life. You walked in there looking for a job not a commentary on MD/DO versus Ph.D. The only thing the interviewer needed to assess was your suitablity for a job in the lab not what your course of life would be. If YOU have made the decision to pursue an MD, it is really up to YOU to do what you need to accomplish to get to YOUR dream. Good luck!
Natalie
QUOTE (njbmd @ Feb 22 2003, 03:14 PM)
]The MCAT is a fact of life in applying for medical school. It does not require 12-14 hours a day of study or at least for me (100 IQ) it did not require 12-14 hours a day of study.
Natalie

Uh, Nat....I don't know where you had your IQ testing performed, but that score is a bunch of hooey. Your verbal intelligence alone - as evidenced by your writing here - would easily place you well above average. Anyone who can achieve just an average score on the MCAT is already considered in the top third (I read that sometime ago, something to do with Mensa standards for admission, I think...)
You're not fooling us, you brainiac wink.gif
QUOTE (GED2MD @ Feb 22 2003, 10:52 AM)
QUOTE (njbmd @ Feb 22 2003, 03:14 PM)
]The MCAT is a fact of life in applying for medical school. It does not require 12-14 hours a day of study or at least for me (100 IQ) it did not require 12-14 hours a day of study.
Natalie

Uh, Nat....I don't know where you had your IQ testing performed, but that score is a bunch of hooey. Your verbal intelligence alone - as evidenced by your writing here - would easily place you well above average. Anyone who can achieve just an average score on the MCAT is already considered in the top third (I read that sometime ago, something to do with Mensa standards for admission, I think...)
You're not fooling us, you brainiac wink.gif

Not to take over the thread but I have never scored above 100 on an IQ test. I have scored from 85 to 100. Since that makes me NORMAL smile.gif , I am pretty happy to have these scores. Of course, scoring on an IQ test is but one assessment of your functional ability in this world. Often the Stanford-Binet IQ score negatively correlates with ability to function. Not a knock on you smart folks out there but my cousin who scored 185, had a great deal of difficulty getting from one class to the next.
The real point is that intelligence has nothing to do with being able to get through medical school.
Natalie
QUOTE (njbmd @ Feb 22 2003, 07:24 PM)
Often the Stanford-Binet IQ score negatively correlates with ability to function

Shall we retitle this thread "IQ debate" and just be done with it?
I wasn't aware of this negative correlation, but I find that to be fascinating information. Perhaps my tortuous path to success could have been predicted by my 148 IQ. laugh.gif

I took an IQ test and scored 163. I have probably the worst college record of anyone here. (GPA 3.050)
I got decent grades, but was LAZY during college (studied for 1 course in entire curriculum… yes it was Ochem).
During the last 2 years of my college career, I was in all nursing classes. I never took one note, or studied at ALL.
That just goes to show that IQ and performance have nothing to do with each other (to some extent… I wouldn’t ask an aardvark to recite Robert Frost biggrin.gif ).

So far our theory of negative correlation is holding. We’ve got:
- an IQ of 100 with many accomplishments and excellence at all endeavors,
- an IQ of 148 with many respectable achievements, but with “performances ranging from brilliant to bored” (lifted straight out of one of my evaluations),
- an IQ of 163 who performed merely at a mediocre level in nursing school (but watch our now, baby; the sky’s the limit!!)
- and an IQ of 185 who couldn’t find her way to her next class…
I’m getting a kick out this…

Thanks OPMs! It has been great to hear from all of you with your encouragement and reality checks.
meow

meow, don’t let the bas@#$%s get you down. Sure, medicine may not have quite the allure it did 30 years ago but my worst day as a doctor is a hell of a lot better than my best day working at Pizza Hut. There has always been a perception among some PhD’s that med school is “trade school” but hey, I wouldn’t want that publish or perish life, they’re welcome to it! The old cliche about “taking all kinds to make a world” is absolutely right!

QUOTE (GED2MD @ Feb 23 2003, 04:29 PM)
So far our theory of negative correlation is holding. We've got:
- an IQ of 100 with many accomplishments and excellence at all endeavors,
- an IQ of 148 with many respectable achievements, but with "performances ranging from brilliant to bored" (lifted straight out of one of my evaluations),
- an IQ of 163 who performed merely at a mediocre level in nursing school (but watch our now, baby; the sky's the limit!!)
- and an IQ of 185 who couldn't find her way to her next class...
I'm getting a kick out this...

What do you think drives the negative correlation b/w IQ and scholastic/occupational success? I can tell you why I did so bad in college... it was incredibly boring, and throughout the first year of nursing school, I faught the system the whole way. (There were many instances where I answered the right answer on a test, only to be counted off. When I went to the professor with proof that I was right, they told me to just "go with it.")
eg: Your patient has a urine specific gravity of 1.001. She: A. Has too much ADH hormone... B. Has been drinking excessive amounts of water.... C. Can pee higher than anyone else (kidding, but C and D were rediculous answers like that).
I answered B, because water has a spec grav of 1.000, so she's peein a lot which means the # of solutes in the urine is decreased. They said the correct answer was A (completely contradictory). I tried to argue, but got no where.
The second year, I lost all motivation to excel and decided to put 0 effort in. They lost my respect as teachers because their attitude was so poor.
I've always done best in courses that were difficult to other students (Aced O Chem 2 in 8 wks) and I've failed Music Appreciation twice!!! (retook it a third time and got A)
Let's see what kind of analzying and theorizing this explanation brings....

Hi,
do not give up.
I have been offered a place to study medicine at Barts and the Royal London School of Medicine and Dentistry in London, starting in Sep at the ripe old age of 48. Its taken me years.So if I can do that in the UK I am sure you'll do it in the US.
Chris

PS haven't posted since the board moved to this location.
Valid reasons? can't think of any at the moment

QUOTE (chrisgreening @ Feb 26 2003, 08:54 PM)
Hi,
do not give up.
I have been offered a place to study medicine at Barts and the Royal London School of Medicine and Dentistry in London, starting in Sep at the ripe old age of 48. Its taken me years.So if I can do that in the UK I am sure you'll do it in the US.
Chris

PS haven't posted since the board moved to this location.
Valid reasons? can't think of any at the moment

Hey there,
Congratulations on your acceptance to Barts and the Royal London School of Medicine and Dentistry. You are going to have a great time! Please post and let us know how you are doing with the coursework. It will be fun to compare and contrast the study of medicine in the UK and the US. Good luck! and Congrats again!
Natalie

Hi Nat,
glad to see that you are on your way.
Will post later.
I am doing a 5 year course as opposed to the 4 year courses that they have started in the UK
All the best
Chris