Working while premed

What about statistics? I know that is on my requirement list. Also, why do some say “just get a degree in something you enjoy and will excel at then apply to med school”?


I have not take that advice but I am curious. I have sat with an advisor at TCC and went the premed route with classes whose credits will transfer over to the university here.


Having said this, my personality is such that I DO NOT want to leave anything to chance. I will move if I have to.

Satistics is good too, I forgot to list it, I took Math 365 statistics my last semester before graduation


Richard

So hey Richard, a quick question on your scheduling thing. What if the person would have a relatively light schedule for two out of three of the ochem classes, but not the other?


I’m looking at having to take ochem 1, bio 3 and an accounting class for the last quarter of this year and I’ll be doing so while finishing up the didactic portion of my paramedic program, so that’s obviously not ideal, but I’m taking ochem 2 in the summer where the only other thing on my plate will be three 12-hour shifts per week for clinical rotations and then ochem 3 the following winter quarter along with a normal full courseload and either part-time work at 12 hours a week or maybe no work at all.

Tim,


I must confess, I know pathetically little about the so-called “quarter system”! Are 2 quarters worth a semester? Which means there are 5 quarters in a year? Or is it like three quarters equals two semesters? You are going to have to hit the advisors at your place for a SPECIFIC answer. That said, I MUST restate my original posit, with the deepest emphasis, grounded in real experience, validated by published information and (strong) recommendations from both academic advising sources and Organic Chemistry faculty, therefore positively NOT just an anecdotal rant by someone who is “anal retentive” and lucky.


NEVER, ever forget the stakes involved once you manage to get to this level, you will have invested YEARS, and if you are like most of us, barrels of treasure, you have gambled everything to get to HERE.


Furthermore, you MUST take Organic Chemistry there is NO way around it but if you come up even a little short you can probably graduate with your undergraduate degree, but as far as medicine the game is quite effectively OVER


Overload an Organic Chemistry semester at your own risk! With an Organic Chemistry class of 500 people, I got to uncomfortably watch over a hundred classmates come up short. I watched the tears and disappointment a few more after each exam…


There are "four pieces” to Organic Chemistry as far as I know, at KU where I did undergrad the semester credits broke down as shown below. Furthermore, in order to maintain “full-time” status for financial aide, one had to be enroll in 12 credits, the good news for pre-meds was if you dropped, a course, as long still had 12 credit hours averaged over the academic year you were still full time with no financial aid consequence (of course the wise student did so before drop day so no ugly “W” appeared on one transcript).


I thought it would be illustrative to show you exactly what I took that third year (the MCAT year). I had forgotten some of it!


Fall 2002

  1. CHEM 624 Organic Chemistry I (3 credits) “A”

  2. CHEM 625 Organic Chemistry I lab (2 credits) “A”

  3. ANTH 442 Anthropological Genetics (3 credits) “A”

  4. BIOL 300 Human Anatomy lecture (3 credits) “A”

  5. PSYC 350 Abnormal Psychology (3 credits) “A”


    (14 hours total, semester GPA 4.0)


    Spring 2003 (MCAT prep and MCAT exam THIS semester)

  6. CHEM 626 Organic Chemistry II (3 credits) “A”

  7. CHEM 627 Organic Chemistry II lab (2 credits) “A”

  8. BIOL 400 Fundamentals of Microbiology (3 credits) “A”

  9. BIOL 402 Fundamentals of Microbiology lab (2 credits) “A”

  10. BIOL 615 Intro to Neurobiology (3 credits) (dropped before drop day NO record)


    (10 hours total semester GPA 4.0)


    Organic Chemistry is noted as a tough cookie! At my school that is the only one of the “hard sciences” that was (if taken “fall >>> spring” that ALWAYS offers the SAME instructors for continuity. We had them at other times; however the sections were MUCH smaller with only 50 or 60 (versus 450-500), often with a pick-up team of instructors, lab sections, times etc and were intended for those who needed to retake, make up a drop, transfers etc. HOWEVER the school advised all students strongly to take the sequence “FALL- SPRING” due to the advantages of continuity.


    KU prints out the sequence for a traditional student in the following way, it works because out of high school, the kids are all set on math (calculus done in high school) so they can jump right in. But note, in all cases medical school pre-requisites must be finished before the MCAT. Because of the time involved in applying to medical school, it must be done a year before you plan to start medical school!


    Typical traditional schedule for new high school graduates (including ONLY pre-requisites)of course conventional wisdome is that you take O chem the MCAT year, many traditional students flip Physics and O Chem.


    1st Fall


    CHEM 184


    BIOL 150


    1st Spring


    CHEM 188


    BIOL 152


    2nd Fall


    CHEM 624


    CHEM 625


    2nd Spring


    CHEM 626


    CHEM 627


    3rd Fall


    PHSX 114


    BIOL 600


    3rd Spring (MCAT time)


    PHSX 115


    BIOL 646 (NOTE, many might have read the story elsewhere but instead trying to depend on so-called “volunteer experiences” I taught the lab for THIS thing at KU (BIOL 647)


    4th Fall


    4th Spring


    As you may appreciate, the “front-loading” of this schedule, it a big problem for non-trads. This is why I universally advise, “TAKE some math, all the way through calculus if you want to”, whenever I read in the sterio typical, “I have a dream introductory post”, that a person has had his/her revelation and spiritual conversion and the simple cannot wait til next fall to start and about to “bust a got” and simply must start “RATT NOW”, or simply have to attend CC… (whatever the rest is)


    Richard

Richard,


Thanks for your input. The quarter system is basically the same as the semester system except that there’s 3 terms instead of 2. Three quarters is equivalent to two semesters.


The major problem I see is that the entire app process is a crapshoot regardless; a person could have the perfect application and still get shot down by every single medical school he/she applies to. As a result, I just feel reluctant to withdraw from P-school and focus on undergrad since there is absolutely no guarantee that I would be rewarded for such a sacrifice in the end anyway. A big part of why I chose to do P-school in the first place is I wanted a career that I would enjoy that I could do in the event that I didn’t get accepted.


I’m not necessarily sure I would be overloading myself. I would say I spend an average of 8-10 hours a week studying for medic school, and of course Tuesday and Friday I’m in lecture from 9 am to 6 pm. The interesting thing is that the ochem series at Davis does /not/ have a lab for the first class; only the second and third. I know a friend who went through the ochem series and he said the first class was easy in comparison to the 2nd and 3rd. If I spend the same amount of time on bio 3 as I did bio 1, and the same amount of time on accounting 2 as I did accounting 1, then those two classes combined would take approx. 4-6 hours of my time every week. So if you look at the top end of the scale, I would be committed for 16 hours of studying time each week outside of ochem. I figure I can get in a good solid 4 hours of studying on MWTh inbetween classes and after the last class so that’s 12 hours there. Tuesday and Friday are out since after I get home from medic school I’m too tired to want to do anything (I have to commute about an hour for medic school so don’t get home until 7 pm). Sat and Sun I can study a good 8 hours apiece, so 16 hours there…so that’s 28 hours of studying I have available per week. Subtract the 16 hours estimated for the other classes and the question basically becomes whether 12 hours per week is enough to devote to an ochem class without lab?


So I guess my new question would be whether 12 hours/wk is enough time to adequately study for ochem if there is no lab component. In the summer, if I took ochem 2, it does have a lab but I am only expected to do 3 12-hour shifts per week so I have 4 days each week that I would be going to lecture and lab and I figure I would have 12-16 hours/wk to study so around the same amount. I know it’s hard to answer whether X amount of time is enough for Y student for Z class, but out of curiosity, how many hours per week did you spend for your ochem class? How many hours do you think it would have been without lab?

Tim,


I do NOT agree with your “crap shoot” analysis, this implies something totally to chance if that were so we would just hold lotteries…


It is closer to a game of CHESS, a study in probabilities. YOU must as many of those things that improve probablility


It is also a direct competition, you must be better that “the other guy”, that is not to say you need to trip anyone else up… but you MUST beat him in the classroom, beat him in attention to detail…


Richard

  • Tim Said:
So I guess my new question would be whether 12 hours/wk is enough time to adequately study for ochem if there is no lab component.

In the summer, if I took ochem 2, it does have a lab but I am only expected to do 3 12-hour shifts per week so I have 4 days each week that I would be going to lecture and lab and I figure I would have 12-16 hours/wk to study so around the same amount.



Ultimately, your question "feels" like: what's the shortcut? How can I make this easier?

There isn't, and you can't.

And seriously, would YOU want to go to a doctor that worried more about how to get through his/her pre-reqs FAST enough with limited studying? OR would you rather go to a doc that did whatever he/she had to do to provide good quality care?

I don't believe for one second you can do the former and be the latter. I also don't believe entirely that's why you're asking the question...

I didn’t view Tim’s question as how he could do it easier (maybe faster as he’s trying to combine the pre-reqs w/paramedic school). I think he’s just trying to get opinions on whether or not he’ll have enough study time to do well in organic with his proposed schedule.


Tim, I can’t give you much advice because I took organic during a compressed summer session. The quarters that you take lab will be time consuming. Organic labs can require lots of time in preparing and completing lab reports. It will most likely take up more of your time than general chemistry labs did. The vast majority of people I have talked to (probably excluding engineering majors) found organic to be one of their most difficult courses.


Ultimately, it comes down to you. All any of us can do is try and give you some estimate of how much time we put in, but that may or may not apply to you. If you are a particularly effective study and can make the most of the time you have, you may be okay. If out of every hour of studying you only get 1/2 hour to 45 minutes of good quality studying in, maybe not.


My suggestion would be that you try and talk to people who have taken organic at your school and get some feedback from them on how much time they needed to put in. After that, if you decide to try it, just be fully prepared to drop SOMETHING if you find it’s not working out for you. And, be prepared to drop it ASAP so it doesn’t show up on your transcript.


I don’t blame you for wanting to finish the paramedic and have that as a back up. At the same time, be willing accept that you may have to push your time line back a little in order to finish it AND do as well as needed in your undergrad to be competitive for medical school. You don’t want to get to the end of the road and realize that sacrificing things to finish your back up plan ultimately cost you a slot in medical school.


Good luck!



Em, thanks for the reply. You hit the nail on the head as I am not looking for any “shortcuts”. In fact, I’m not sure where jkp’s post came from since it just seemed like an attempt at incendiary comments from someone who hasn’t “been there, done that” yet anyway. I would have expected comments like those on SDN far more than here but ah well. If anything, doing medic school at the same time as undergrad is taking the long way through the field of thorn bushes, as I jokingly told my girlfriend last night.


I suppose I’ll talk to a friend of mine who just completed the ochem series at Davis that I would be taking and see what he has to say. He said that the first one, due to the fact it has no lab, isn’t nearly as much work as the second and third but I didn’t get an estimate from him on how much time he spent studying. I would think the time spent would be comparable if not a little generous for me since we spent around the same time studying for general chem and calc (we took gen chem 2 and calc 1 & 2 together, similar study habits).


Worst case scenario I guess would be having to delay graduating from Davis due to having to take next fall quarter off and then spending an additional two years part-time since there won’t be enough classes left to take to stay full-time. I guess that’s a better alternative than getting some B’s and C’s, although I’m still not convinced that anything less than an A in ochem would be the kiss of death or even diminish one’s chances. If someone had both an overall and science GPA of 3.7, say they had a B-, B+ and maybe a B in ochem, but obviously A’s in most of their other science classes due to the 3.7 science GPA, I guess I’m just not seeing where that would kill an app?

  • In reply to:
If someone had both an overall and science GPA of 3.7, say they had a B-, B+ and maybe a B in ochem, but obviously A's in most of their other science classes due to the 3.7 science GPA, I guess I'm just not seeing where that would kill an app?



Kiss of death, no, but not helpful, either. You know as well as I do that California is super competitive for med school admissions. The bigger issue beyond grades is how well will you learn the material for the MCAT. An adcom might accept that your grades were a little bit lower that year because you were in paramedic school if you kick butt on the MCAT. IMO you should approach every class with an attitude of wanting to learn the material as well as you possibly can and not how much time do I need to put in to get an A, because we all know that it's entirely possible to get an A in a course and not learn all that much.


Point taken. I talked to a friend of mine who went through the same medic program and he said that they definitely won’t be lenient on scheduling for the field internship, so either way it’ll take me an extra year at Davis, so I’m just going to take ochem the quarter after I’m done with the medic program.


I definitely do want to learn the material for the MCAT so that’ll probably be the safest bet to do that. Thanks for the input! (: and yeah I know how super-competitive CA schools are…quite honestly I’m not convinced I would want to go to several of them anyway. I /hate/ the Sacramento/Davis area with a passion and honestly don’t even know if I’ll apply to UCD. To a lesser degree, I freakin’ hate San Francisco so I highly doubt I’ll apply to UCSF. Won’t apply to Stanford either because I have no interest in research and have become convinced from going to UCD that the stronger a research presence a school has, the higher the chance that the education is lacking in quality. So I’ll actually just apply to the SoCal schools anyhow. Granted, they all have strong research presences too, but I might as well apply to some in-state schools and I wouldn’t mind living in Irvine, San Diego or Los Angeles.

Tim,


I too want to confirm that I did not misinterpret your query. We have been associated long enough that I consider our relationship quite collegial, I in NO way assumed you were short-cutting. However I would be remiss if I did not remind you what is at stake! I have known you long enough to have concluded you would be a splendid physician, so my job therefore is to do whatever I can, as loudly and even obnoxiously to see to it you do.!


Only you know if you will be able to “hold her in the road” with the increased academic pressure! My intent was simply to remind you what was at stake!


I wanted to share “my stuff” from that year to illustrate that I practice what I preach! I “un-assed” the Neurobiology when I got a 75% on the first quiz and the study requirements were going up and up.


Richard

  • Tim Said:
The major problem I see is that the entire app process is a crapshoot regardless;

a person could have the perfect application and still get shot down by every single medical school he/she applies to.

As a result, I just feel reluctant to withdraw from P-school and focus on undergrad since there is absolutely no guarantee that I would be rewarded for such a sacrifice in the end anyway.

I would say I spend an average of 8-10 hours a week studying for medic school, and of course Tuesday and Friday I'm in lecture from 9 am to 6 pm.

The interesting thing is that the ochem series at Davis does /not/ have a lab for the first class; only the second and third.

I know a friend who went through the ochem series and he said the first class was easy in comparison to the 2nd and 3rd.



If your original avatar was accurate, and you are 24, commonality of "how quick can I do this - OMG - I'm sooo old" is often seen which then leads to "OMG, how can I rush through this" where upon, Richard, et al - post "SLOW DOWN, what's the hurry!?" I'm 44. He did it to me when he didn't realize what my own background contained.

My point was to everyone who was going to read your post - perhaps I should have stated as such as it sort of came from Richard's posts - getting into med school should NOT be EASY or FAST for... how would any of US like to go to a doc who went easy and fast rather than direct, orderly, methodical.

I don't know you, have not talked with you, and honestly, haven't read any of your posts until now.

Have not been to SDN since haven't seemed the need to yet.
  • Richard B Said:
Tim,

I too want to confirm that I did not misinterpret your query. We have been associated long enough that I consider our relationship quite collegial, I in NO way assumed you were short-cutting. However I would be remiss if I did not remind you what is at stake! I have known you long enough to have concluded you would be a splendid physician, so my job therefore is to do whatever I can, as loudly and even obnoxiously to see to it you do.!

Only you know if you will be able to “hold her in the road” with the increased academic pressure! My intent was simply to remind you what was at stake!

I wanted to share “my stuff” from that year to illustrate that I practice what I preach! I “un-assed” the Neurobiology when I got a 75% on the first quiz and the study requirements were going up and up.

Richard



Richard, I appreciate the kind words. I'm still considering my options at this point after finding out that the certification classes for my medic program such as ACLS, AMLS, etc. I am not really allowed to miss which further complicates the matter. Part of it is financial since as a medic, combined with my gf's income, we would be able to save up a significant amount of money (she already has quite a bit saved) so that I'd barely have to take out any student loans for med school. Unfortunately, it just seems like there's too much on my plate at this point in time.

Hey, Guys! It’s great to see so many people in my same situation blogging here! I’m 29, 2 toddlers, working part-time and 2 years away from medical school. I have been trying to search for a job in the medical field for my med school app, but, like BOOBS, there is nothing here without some form of certification. It’s very frustrating!

Marsena,


You might have to get some “certification” based on what is available in your situation. But you must do what you must do and be willing to be flexible. This is all part of the strategic planning that MUST be done in order to go the distance. With a bit of clever planning you might be able to combine goals. I am not saying that you are going to be able to come close to what you made before, but it might be possible to compromise.


Since you will need “experiences” for medical school, many of the younger set do “volunteer work”, and I believe you can do better… Are you going to a four year school that either does research or has undergraduate teaching assistants? Get one of those two, and get paid to get your experiences for school


If I can find the link (this same discussion done a year or so ago) where I have already explained this I will post it… I found it! OK here you go!

  1. ALL applicants (the younger set) have “volunteer experiences”, they are generally bright too, so the question becomes how to set oneself apart?

  2. Older students can do them too, BUT they are what EVERYONE DOES! If you truly NEED to shadow or volunteer (coming from an ABSOLUTELY non-medical background) then fine… however, paid experiences SHOW accountability and excellence (the double edge sword of course is that it is possible to do poorly which is also documented).

  3. The HIGHEST YIELD experiences, research and publications, many basic science researchers will hire undergraduates to work in their labs (so you need to go to a major research university), it might be scut work, but you will learn and benefit often faculty will include the names of everyone who participated when the article is published. Believe me, nothing more impressive for an admissions committee than plugging your name into “pub-med” and get a hit…

  4. The next (and maybe equal) gold nugget is teaching. I did not really enjoy research, so I applied as an “undergraduate teaching assistant”, often after the semester or so of assisting a faculty instructor, many schools allow UTA’s to teach a basic lab such as a first level biology or chemistry lab. If you do well you first year many school will hire you in your second year.


    My own story, which I thing was pivotal to gaining acceptance to medical school:


    I applied to teach as a undergraduate teaching assistant. When they found out I was a nurse I was told, “Well you know we might be able to do better for you than grading papers, would you be interested in teaching your own physiology lab sections?”


    That was a no brainer, so I was hired with special approval to teach in a “graduate teaching assistant” (GTA slot) in a provisional status my third semester at KU. Since all instructors are evaluated by students and my rating were much above (grad students who had “teaching” foisted on them as part of their PhD program), I was reappointed for the rest of my undergrad career, and I taught 3 sections of either BIOL 306 Human physiology lab or BIOL 647 Mammalian physiology lab for the duration.


    I had to be flexible (remember doing what one has to) it meant taking my own labs at odd hours (Saturday), but the payoff chronicled below speaks for itself.

  5. I have also known students to WORK as a nurse’s aide and get GREAT letters…


    GET INTO one of these high yield “gig’s” and STAY THERE!


    I had a blast teaching, because I was responsible for the success of others and of course students can see through “bull crap”, it forced me to stay sharp on the material. You probably know having a grasp of a subject sufficiently to TEACH, is an order of magnitude higher that the level needed to do well on an exam


    Let me I fast forward to my “open records” interview “where all desires are known and no secrets are hid”, there were two interviewers, at some point while answering a question, I sort of noticed the other interviewer was “flipping” through my file, it LOOKED like he was cross referencing something…


    As I finished my answer, I fell silent and waited. After almost a full minute of dead silence, the second interviewer began, "You know, many students tell us their undergraduate physiology experiences are the most the useful in preparation for medical school… I see you have taught that for the last three years… I also note that the letter from your supervisor is far and away the most outstanding… hum… how interesting” AND he DID NOT ASK a QUESTION!


    It was all I could do NOT to stand up and exclaim “TOUCHDOWN” WHOO HOOO!! I learned several years later that this interviewer was one of my “advocates” on the admissions committee.


    OK, so there you are! YOU need to make plans, sit down and identify your strengths then do things that show them off. You must be creative, the deal of course is that as an older student there is a potential for you to come up with something that will make you stand out. I urge you to work on coming up with something.


    Richard

Marsena,


What a cool name! I was an RN student at Lynchburg College in Va. The coursework in No way helps towards medical school. Well, I take that back- depending on the med school- the anatomy classes for RN may be helpful.


I have done lots of research about medical schools and their requirements. It really seems to me that having good grades in your science & MCATs as well as volunteering or physician shadowing to show you know the medical field and what you are getting into.


Then again- that opinion and $4 will get you a starbucks coffee! lol.


Good luck.

Love your name too!! Thanks for the compliment. I have come to these same conclusions. I have decided to take one semester and take the PCT course, become certified so that I can work in a wider range of floors, etc in a hospital setting to pay SOME bills and gain experience. It will cost me some time (not near as much as RN) but all things considered, it seems the right next step and will open up opportunities for me that I would not have in a non-medical work place.


I am relatively new here too, however, WELCOME!!

Marsena,


I know you are in my area kinda…Oklahoma…but are you anywhere close to UCO…it’s in Edmond…Richard suggested talking to a pre-med advisor and although I know that OU and OSU are the BIG schools but UCO is a 4 year school and we have a pre-med club and Dr. Anne Ewing who is a great person to talk to if you’re serious about pre-med. She is no nonsense and will point you in absolutely the right direction. They have a whole section on the UCO website about pre-med advising with Dr. Ewing’s link and everything else. I’m not sure if you’re close enough to check it out but I figured it would be worth mentioning.

Hello all. This is a great thread. This is my 1st post here, but I’ll save the intro for later.


Since Richard is passing out excellent career advice here, I wanted to ask a question.


I’m a 30 yo mom of 2, full-time engineer, and bio I student at a CC. I’ve read Richard’s story, and it’s amazing. (FWIW, I’m a KU alum & will apply to KU Med, too.) Now I’m questioning my plan - it doesn’t meet his standards. I was going to work FT, take my courses at night at the CC and volunteer on evenings and weekends. I want to inflict as little pain on the family as possible, since the med school years will be painful. We’re paying off cars and saving as much as possible ahead of losing my income.


How should one balance gaining healthcare experience with losing ~75% of income (if I was to work as a CNA or TA. . .)? I know the end answer is to do what is right for you, but I want to balance what’s right with me with what’s right with the adcom.