Maybe if you weren't too busy trying to (apparently) piss off as many people if they don't give you a clearly visible answer to your question, you would get more responses.
I have to admit that if I was at a point in the medical process where I could give you an answer, I wouldn't anyways, because you've displayed an extremely obvious lack of respect and therefore don't really deserve an answer in the first place.
As far as humor goes, it was obvious that Crooz was just making a joke so your response was quite pathetic.
In the future, you may want to try to be a little more respectful, it could help in acquiring the information you want.
Again folks, this isn't difficult stuff here. If you have nothing to contribute to the issue of (and I'm going to highlight it here for the slower ones among us) DO or Ross/St. George then spare me your diatribe.
Maybe I’m doing this wrong, but I just went to Touro’s website and here is what I see for their breakdown. It’s far worse than any of the ones posted above.
I would really like more data on this topic. But you are not helping the thread along by being snippy.
More statistics and relevant issues, please! Less snippiness all around!
Thanks!
I think less snippiness all around could be a good thing, if the intention is actually to re-rail this thread.
OP - it seems to me that you already have a feel for what would suit you best, like you know what answer you'd like to hear. If that's indeed the case - go for it! Do what will make you happiest.
Another factor to consider - DO schools are very heavily geared towards primary care. I think they draw more students overall that are geared towards primary care than the US and carib allo schools.
I really think that you are better off at a US DO school than a caribbean school, assuming that you have been accepted to a DO school that has a decent reputation. There are schools of both persuastions that have great reputations and schools that don’t. If you are gunning for a competitive residency, then attending a DO school that is either brand new or has a questionable reputation is probably not going to give you any significant advantage over a Carib school.
The single most important factor in getting residency interviews tends to be your USMLE score. After that, the second most important factor varies widely from program to program. From what I’ve seen, a DO residency applicant would have a considerable advantage over a foreign applicant with the same board scores. Clinical grades are also a huge deal, so you need to look at what opportunities for away rotations are offered for students at a given school. Medical schools will also typically give preference to students requesting away rotations to DO over the carbi schools as well, I think (if any one know that this is false, please speak up), although there are some MD schools that will not take rotating DO students.
The perception of DO’s is changing and there is greater acceptance of DO’s as a whole. There are several faculty members at my school who have DO degrees and if you look through the residents in the various programs, I have noticed more DO grads serving as residents at my allo institution than foreign grads (in the competitive specialties, at least).
There is an excellent document charting allo match outcomes here . Unfortunately, it doesn’t break down DO vs. US MD applicants, but it does break down US grads vs. foreign grads. Perhaps that will give you some insight. Also, if you browse the USMLE’s website, I believe you can find statistics comparing USMLE scores for US MD, US DO and foreign student scores. Pass rates go from highest to lowest in that order, as well as average score. So, give those two documents some consideration.
As for match outcomes, you are probably better off searching RESIDENCY program websites and seeing where their residents come from than searching the SCHOOL’s websites for where they claim to place their grads. Schools are under no obligation to post their match lists and/or USMLE ave/pass rate, so there is no guarantee that the information posted on a school site is 100% accurate.
Last thing - I have heard that there is a fairly high attrition rate at foreign schools. Perhaps Whuds can speak a little bit more to that. I know that at most state funded US schools (DO or MD), the attrition rate tends to be very low. The schools have invested a lot of money in you, so they typically do everything they can to help you pass. (Not to mention the fact that they don’t want to tell incoming students that they have a high dropout rate). This may not be the case for private schools, as they have less invested in you.
This is a small forum. You aren’t going to get lots of people “in the know” with hard facts on here. Most of what you get is going to be anecdotal or opinion.
If you truly don’t feel that you can at least give OMM a fair shot or at least tolerate it for a few years of training, then perhaps you are better off at a caribbean school. Your hostility towards being forced to study something you think is lacking in scientific evidence may make your entire educational experience at a DO school miserable. My impression is that most DO grads (especially non-primary care ones) do very little OMM once they begin practicing, so you are under no obligation to practice OMM just because you have “DO” after your name if you don’t believe it is effective.
The single most important factor in getting residency interviews tends to be your USMLE score. After that, the second most important factor varies widely from program to program. From what I've seen, a DO residency applicant would have a considerable advantage over a foreign applicant with the same board scores. Clinical grades are also a huge deal, so you need to look at what opportunities for away rotations are offered for students at a given school. Medical schools will also typically give preference to students requesting away rotations to DO over the carbi schools as well, I think (if any one know that this is false, please speak up), although there are some MD schools that will not take rotating DO students.
Good post, EM. Thx for your contribution. The part I quoted above is what I've heard several times as well -- regarding the USMLE. It's of paramount importance to do well on the boards regardless of where you go -- including US allopathic, or else you will soon find primary care your "first choice" for lack of any other "choice."
I should also probably take a moment to point out that I'm really only considering 2 carib schools -- St. George and Ross. Last time I counted there were >30 carib schools out there and there's absolutely no doubt >25 are of questionable quality, to put it kindly.
My understanding is that the pass rate on the USMLE Step 1 for DO's is ~69%. SGU boasts >90% for the past decade? Something like that. I can't help but think that if I'm required to spend 2 full years wasting my time with OMM/Cranial then my Step 1 score is bound to suffer.
From talking to DO's after my interview, more than one has mentioned that if/when they don't pass the USMLE Step 1, they'll suddenly make primary care their "first choice" and rely on COMLEX to allow them to practice medicine. Seems almost more shady than the other 30 fly-by-night carib schools.
And I've also heard plenty of the DO rhetoric claiming they are recently gaining more "acceptance." Is there any evidence for this at all? What I don't understand is how if it's been around for >120 years, it hasn't gained full acceptance? What's been holding it back?
Look, believe me I know this severely irritates all the osteopaths when they see they facts brought forward for what they are, and really I would like nothing more than to stay here in the Bay Area and attend Touro, but I also don't want it to sink my career.
Medical schools will also typically give preference to students requesting away rotations to DO over the carbi schools as well, I think (if any one know that this is false, please speak up), although there are some MD schools that will not take rotating DO students.
One last thing here is whether what you've posted above is correct or not. I really have no idea, but it sounds like you might have no idea either. Is this really true, that students requesting away rotations prefer DO to St. George? The reason I ask is because I really want to get the proper facts out in the open here. It hurts no one to just lay it on the table so we can all see it for what it is.
But if you're just guessing, or you heard it from a friend who heard it from a friend... well, then we've got a problem. Because that's really no different that passing along the misinformation we've seen the DO's try to pass along above regarding financing.
Let's really make a special effort here to get it right.
I don’t know if you’re trying to be sincere, mdjd, but your approach seems counterproductive.
You’re going at this with the assumption that you already know the answer: if you bring the facts forward for what they are, OMM would be a waste of your time that would sink your career; osteopaths posting here are spreading misinformation and pushing their own positions for personal reasons.
If you were sincerely interested in making a special effort to get this right, I have to assume that you wouldn’t simply dismiss answers you don’t agree with.
Clearly, you don’t buy into Osteopathy; that’s fine, it’s your perogative. Given that, though, why ask? To find ammuntion for what you already believe? Why even bother with something you don’t believe in - just in case the answer you don’t like turns out to be the optimal one?
Clearly, you don't buy into Osteopathy; that's fine, it's your perogative. Given that, though, why ask? To find ammuntion for what you already believe? Why even bother with something you don't believe in - just in case the answer you don't like turns out to be the optimal one?
Good points. I guess I just never realized how much stronger the case for St. George over DO actually is until now. Once all the wrong/unsure information is stripped away, and the hardcore numbers regarding residency placements are brought to bear on the matter it appears to be an overwhelming victory for SGU.
I thought (and genuinely hoped) a stronger case could be built for going the osteopathic route, but I'm not seeing it. I actually do feel quite a bit better now about SGU -- sometimes I suppose it helps to hash it out just to make sure nothing was missed.
Sorry I’m late, But I think DO is a good option but the two Caribbean schools you have mention are very good choices and no matter what some believe here ( there was a time not too long ago there was action against FMG/IMG grads but that has gone away due to the shortage and all the grads) Caribbean is a good option. I endorse it only after looking at all the options/choices you have, I have the upmost respect for DO Doctors, Mary/Linda/Old Man Dave really but personally I wanted MD, no not cause of the initials I wanted the philosophy too, yes we are being taught to treat the whole person just as DO, but DO goes way farther into other areas you do not study in MD school. Nothing wrong with that but I always feel you have to agree with it to go to a DO school and there are some things I do not agree with, that said I want Primary care and that will be ( already have offers) fine for me when it comes to specialties and competitive residencies then the Caribbean hampers you some but completely, you see I personally know some program directors one from Ross and another from SGU both have said they would pick a qualified Caribbean student for residencies, this flies in the face of what others will post but you have to understand Caribbean grads are gaining ground and are showing up in the programs it was bound to start happining and it is. Main thing is to understand you still may be at some dissadvantage to US grads but after residency starts nothing really you are a Doc and thats all to it.
Please look at your choices and then make the decision you are happy with, whats right for you,
So Go DO if you know you will be happy and do well if not then go Caribbean what matters the most is you not us, not friends but YOU, it’s your life and if the goal is to be a physician you can do that from a DO or a Caribbean school.
Please no offense to any one I respect all of you.
One of the speakers at our upcoming OPM conference in Chicago will be Dr. Wallace Newkirk M.D. a caribbean medical school graduate who is currently practicing family medicine in the state of Washington. He will have a great deal of information to share on his educational experiences…So come to the conference everyone!
To the op: I suggest you read up on osteopathy. There are a few good books out there you can find on Amazon: “The DO’s” is well known. “The Difference a DO Makes” is published by the Oklahoma Osteo. Society and can be ordered from them. These are both good introductions. Also, http://www.aoa-net.org/ for a wealth of information. Lastly, call or visit the schools you are interested in and find out directly what their curricula are like.
I’m personally interested in osteopathy and so I’m going osteopathic by choice so you may consider my opinions biased (but that’s what opinions are, after all ). OMM is not voodoo; there are studies out there to support its efficacy, not to mention thousands of satisfied patients, though certain techniques remain controversial or unproven such as cranio-sacral therapy which you (apparently) have in mind. I would say (as a mostly ignorant pre-matriculated student) that OMM is approximately equivalent to chiropractic, but DOs have the advantage of general medical training on top of manipulation and can and do go into any of the specialties today. My father ran a radiology department for 35 years and will tell you that today’s osteopathic radiology residents are quite as qualified as allopathic physicians, and he’s very old school.
I’ve been advised that SGU and Ross are considered quite competitive with mainland schools. However they are expensive and there are limitations in the kind of federal loans you can get–maybe you can only get private loans, I’m not sure. Others may be able to elaborate on this. SGU lets you start in January, which is pretty cool; you get an extra few months to study for the USMLE. There are several people on this forum who are in Caribbean schools and can provide more details.
Sorry I'm late, But I think DO is a good option but the two Caribbean schools you have mention are very good choices and no matter what some believe here ( there was a time not too long ago there was action against FMG/IMG grads but that has gone away due to the shortage and all the grads) Caribbean is a good option. I endorse it only after looking at all the options/choices you have, I have the upmost respect for DO Doctors, Mary/Linda/Old Man Dave really but personally I wanted MD, no not cause of the initials I wanted the philosophy too, yes we are being taught to treat the whole person just as DO, but DO goes way farther into other areas you do not study in MD school. Nothing wrong with that but I always feel you have to agree with it to go to a DO school and there are some things I do not agree with, that said I want Primary care and that will be ( already have offers) fine for me when it comes to specialties and competitive residencies then the Caribbean hampers you some but completely, you see I personally know some program directors one from Ross and another from SGU both have said they would pick a qualified Caribbean student for residencies, this flies in the face of what others will post but you have to understand Caribbean grads are gaining ground and are showing up in the programs it was bound to start happining and it is. Main thing is to understand you still may be at some dissadvantage to US grads but after residency starts nothing really you are a Doc and thats all to it.
Please look at your choices and then make the decision you are happy with, whats right for you,
So Go DO if you know you will be happy and do well if not then go Caribbean what matters the most is you not us, not friends but YOU, it's your life and if the goal is to be a physician you can do that from a DO or a Caribbean school.
Please no offense to any one I respect all of you.
One of the speakers at our upcoming OPM conference in Chicago will be Dr. Wallace Newkirk M.D. a caribbean medical school graduate who is currently practicing family medicine in the state of Washington. He will have a great deal of information to share on his educational experiences......So come to the conference everyone!
An SMU grad? I think that's great, but you could probably ratchet it up a notch or two if you tried. How about inviting some docs from the schools that allow licensure in all 50. SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba. No offense, but SMU did not even appear on my radar. It's been explicitly *disapproved* by California. That's worse than many other Caribbean schools who haven't even been considered.
St. George’s, Ross and AUC (American University of the Caribbean) are all approved for the Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP). This includes the same Stafford Loan opportunities available to medical students in the states. I believe these are the only schools approved for FFELP in the Caribbean.
St. George’s, Ross and AUC (American University of the Caribbean) are all approved for the Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP). This includes the same Stafford Loan opportunities available to medical students in the states. I believe these are the only schools approved for FFELP in the Caribbean.
What ever opinions you have of his school the bottom line is he is a BOARD CERTIFIED LICENCED PHYSICIAN PRACTICING IN THE UNITES STATES. In addition, I’m sure he has some interesting insight on the Caribbean educational experience which might be of interest to some of our attendees.
One of the speakers at our upcoming OPM conference in Chicago will be Dr. Wallace Newkirk M.D. a caribbean medical school graduate who is currently practicing family medicine in the state of Washington. He will have a great deal of information to share on his educational experiences......So come to the conference everyone!
An SMU grad? I think that's great, but you could probably ratchet it up a notch or two if you tried. How about inviting some docs from the schools that allow licensure in all 50. SGU, Ross, AUC and Saba. No offense, but SMU did not even appear on my radar. It's been explicitly *disapproved* by California. That's worse than many other Caribbean schools who haven't even been considered.
OPM can do better.
OPM conference presenters, like most of the attendees, tend to be nontraditional, and Dr. Newkirk certainly fits that definition. Someone who comes into medicine from other careers (including related careers such as nursing) is going to have a lot to say that is relevant to the OldPremed community.
If I'm not mistaken, there will be one or two Caribbean school reps at the conference so that people interested in those schools can get their questions answered. Perhaps Jeff or Dave can comment on who's signed up currently.
To the op: I suggest you read up on osteopathy. There are a few good books out there you can find on Amazon: "The DO's" is well known. "The Difference a DO Makes" is published by the Oklahoma Osteo. Society and can be ordered from them. These are both good introductions. Also, http://www.aoa-net.org/ for a wealth of information. Lastly, call or visit the schools you are interested in and find out directly what their curricula are like.
I'm personally interested in osteopathy and so I'm going osteopathic by choice so you may consider my opinions biased (but that's what opinions are, after all ). OMM is not voodoo; there are studies out there to support its efficacy, not to mention thousands of satisfied patients, though certain techniques remain controversial or unproven such as cranio-sacral therapy which you (apparently) have in mind. I would say (as a mostly ignorant pre-matriculated student) that OMM is approximately equivalent to chiropractic, but DOs have the advantage of general medical training on top of manipulation and can and do go into any of the specialties today. My father ran a radiology department for 35 years and will tell you that today's osteopathic radiology residents are quite as qualified as allopathic physicians, and he's very old school.
I've been advised that SGU and Ross are considered quite competitive with mainland schools. However they are expensive and there are limitations in the kind of federal loans you can get--maybe you can only get private loans, I'm not sure. Others may be able to elaborate on this. SGU lets you start in January, which is pretty cool; you get an extra few months to study for the USMLE. There are several people on this forum who are in Caribbean schools and can provide more details.
Folks, this is what I'm referring to when I say that it's of paramount importance on this thread that we get the facts right. SGU and Ross Med are both Title IV federally funded programs. Stafford subsidized + unsubsidized + GradPlus. We've really got to start shedding some of the bad info that's somehow spread unabated.
"The Difference a DO Makes" was a good quick read in preparation for interviews as it gave me some key phrases to throw out, but I've got to say it's a sell that might make one feel a bit weasy if you attempt to read it for the truth it asserts.
St. George’s, Ross and AUC (American University of the Caribbean) are all approved for the Federal Family Education Loan Program (FFELP). This includes the same Stafford Loan opportunities available to medical students in the states. I believe these are the only schools approved for FFELP in the Caribbean.
). OMM is not voodoo; there are studies out there to support its efficacy, not to mention thousands of satisfied patients, though certain techniques remain controversial or unproven such as cranio-sacral therapy which you (apparently) have in mind. I would say (as a mostly ignorant pre-matriculated student) that OMM is approximately equivalent to chiropractic, but DOs have the advantage of general medical training on top of manipulation and can and do go into any of the specialties today. My father ran a radiology department for 35 years and will tell you that today’s osteopathic radiology residents are quite as qualified as allopathic physicians, and he’s very old school.