Advice needed -- DO or Ross/St. George?

Nontraditional Premed Discussion
41
  • jpwa Said:
mdjd,

What ever opinions you have of his school the bottom line is he is a BOARD CERTIFIED LICENCED PHYSICIAN PRACTICING IN THE UNITES STATES. In addition, I’m sure he has some interesting insight on the Caribbean educational experience which might be of interest to some of our attendees.



Good point. I'm sure he will be informative. I also think you could ramp it up a bit and include some more mainstream, CA-approved offshore graduates.
42
  • mdjd Said:


Folks, this is what I'm referring to when I say that it's of paramount importance on this thread that we get the facts right. SGU and Ross Med are both Title IV federally funded programs. Stafford subsidized + unsubsidized + GradPlus. We've really got to start shedding some of the bad info that's somehow spread unabated.

"The Difference a DO Makes" was a good quick read in preparation for interviews as it gave me some key phrases to throw out, but I've got to say it's a read that might make one feel a bit weasy if you attempt to read it for the truth it asserts.



MD JD --

Whatever you meant by "weasy", the historical information in "The Difference a DO Makes" is accurate; it's corroborated in other accounts. Let's have some examples instead of unsupported generalizations.

Consider that this forum is a discussion, which is an exchange of information. Didn't you read any of the other messages that followed mine? You accuse everyone else of spreading bad information "unabated" yet you yourself shoot from the hip in a manner that is persuading me you're not worth wasting any more time on.
43
  • ttraub Said:


MD JD --

Whatever you meant by "weasy", the historical information in "The Difference a DO Makes" is accurate; it's corroborated in other accounts. Let's have some examples instead of unsupported generalizations.



OK, glad you asked. And BTW, I really think it might be productive to start a new thread dedicated exclusively to the strange (I'm being kind here) suppositions osteopathy puts forward.

Here's a starter, direct from "The Difference a DO Makes":

"An osteopathic physician practices and believes in holistic medicine. He views patients as whole human beings; he doesn't just view them with a narrow focus on a single complaint."

This, of course, implies (nay, requires) that the D.O. counterpart, an M.D., is somehow lacking in this "unique" ability to treat the patient. I think Stephen Barrett, M.D. sums it up best in his response to this garbage:

"The American Osteopathic Association's web site glorifies Andrew Still and asserts that osteopathic medicine has a unique philosophy of care because "DOs take a whole-person approach to care and don't just focus on a diseased or injured part." I consider it outrageous to imply that osteopathic physicians are the only ones who regard their patients as individuals or who provide comprehensive care or pay attention to disease prevention. Another AOA web document states:

Osteopathic physicians frequently assess impaired mobility of the musculoskeletal system as that system encompasses the entire body and is intimately related to the organ systems and to the nervous system. Using anatomical relationships between the musculoskeletal and these organ systems, osteopathic physicians diagnose and treat all organ systems.

This statement strikes me as the same sort of baloney chiropractors use to suggest that somehow their attention to the spine will have positive effects on all body processes."

http://www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/Q A/o...

  • ttraub Said:
Consider that this forum is a discussion, which is an exchange of information. Didn't you read any of the other messages that followed mine? You accuse everyone else of spreading bad information "unabated" yet you yourself shoot from the hip in a manner that is persuading me you're not worth wasting any more time on.



See, this is the kind of crap that's unwelcome here. You were wrong, and you were called on it. Don't let it happen again, because it won't slide on this thread. I won't let it.
44

Folks, don’t get me wrong here. Although it’s looking better and better to attend Ross/St. George, if I do end up in an osteopath school I’ll be singing its praises like there’s no tomorrow. Honestly, it’ll be like a freaking revival came to town nearly every day of school for at least the first 6 weeks. I might even set up a few tents.


I’m not kidding when I say that I’ll be pounding on the school desks if I have to to convince everyone around me that osteopathy is the wave of the future, and I’ll throw out every quote I can remember from the DO propaganda.


But at this stage in my decisionmaking I’m just gathering all the info I can before I make a decision. And I want it to be absolutely as accurate as humanly possible. No tolerance for error. Hope you understand.

45

I made a booboo ment to say,


“Caribbean hampers you some BUT NOT COMPLETELY”


Sorry for that I messed up! Forgiver me!!!

46

All 50? Now there are two Kinds of Doctors for MD? Ones who graduate from schools where you can practice in all but California and the ones who can Practice in that one state? Please give me a break!


An MD is no less qualified if he goes to a Cali approved school or not. Give me a break! This is insulting to me, My school is not Cali Approved as of yet they are going through and accreditation process that SGU, ROSS, AUC and SABA went through first. The school like SMU is young and just getting everything together, You know the world does not revolve around California, in fact the approval process by that state is in question by the methods they use, the rest of the states may or may not care who is on the Cali list, they look at each application individually, this is true for the “all 50” state schools, they are not “All 50 approved” they just have many grads in different states, but not “All 50” I know SABA does not for example. Please post facts or make sure it is opinion on this subject so people have the facts.


Fact is California is one state and a school being approved by California has NO MEANING TO THE QUALITY or THE STATUS of a DOCTOR.


DO’s have limited to not being able to practice many places around the world does that affect the DO’s in the USA? Should we base the DO on this limitation like you place Cali on an MD that went to a school that Cali has not approved of yet?


I have read a lot of trash on SDN and there are some who post the truth and others really have no idea what they are talking about. Please do not take everything you read as hard Facts research ( as I have ) for yourself, you think I’m going to spend 180k in loans if I could not practice at 42 years of age? Please.


Student loan approval by the Federal Government, well the BIG 3 were approved over 20 years ago and grandfathered in, in fact congress moved to discontinue the loans for them but it was defeated this past year, the feeling is it will be discontinued sometime in the near future, it really has no bearing on the schools as far as quality, in Fact SMU has been approved by the US DOE, just cannot get the federal loans due to congress (The rule is 60% of the students who attend the school must be from that country and it has been waived for SGU, AUC and Ross for now).


(I do not attend SMU BTW) SO do your home work and post facts not fiction or opinion as facts.


Please think on this Because I respect every Doctor here and every one trying to be a Doctor and I think you should too, they have earned it!

47

Everybody play nice. And don’t feed the trolls.

48

YEP You be right! I mean to offend no one here.


I really do respect all of you ( I hope it goes both ways)


By the way just a thought, if posters could post opinions with a disclaimer that is their opinion that would help, if you have the links or reference to the facts please post that too.


This is my opinion or IMO!

49

I will give you my opinion on your original question…IF this was ME, I would go Caribbean. I will try to explain why and hope this makes sense. I never ever had heard of DO until I started hanging out with the original OPM listserve. I soon came to the realization that OMM was not for me and I just did not “truly believe” in it. Wrong or right that is the way I feel/think. Now, I do know that osteopathic physicians are excellent/competent/carin g physicians just as allopathic physicians are and they get jobs all over the country just like allos do. To me it is more of a personal issue. Also, because I had never heard of a DO and where I was at at the time DO’s were scarce (South) some folks that I asked had no clue what DO’s are. To me this was not acceptable…If I busted my arse for 7+ years going through medical school and residency I did not want ONE person to question the letters after my name. This may sound vain and immature but it is the way it is. I want to be recognized for my accomplishments no matter where I end up at (most likely in the South) and would have ZERO tolerance for having to explain to anyone what DO stands for. So in that light for me applying DO was just NOT an option period. So if I was in your shoes right now and knowing that yes, it is harder to land residencies in the US as an IMG/FMG and that it is an uphill battle I would still go the foreign route. There are uphill battles from both standpoints IMHO…some programs here do not readily accept DO students, and some programs here do not readily accept international students. Although these may be in the minority they do exist and NO I am not going to search for which programs these are but they are out there. Good luck!

50

Thanks efex. I appreciate your input.


mdjd

51

I understand you have an opinion and I think you should post it, you are correct that the Big 4 in the Caribbean are a better choice then the rest I just read your post and I always have a major problem with anyone who posts that one Doc degree is ranked higher than another, I think once at that level we are very close in our abilities and respect.


Just my 2 cents.

52
  • Mary Renard Said:
And don't feed the trolls.



Again, folks, this is precisely the type of personal attack that is unwarranted, unwelcome and simply won't be tolerated on this thread. Everyone here has their own stories, struggles and opinions and I won't allow these individuals to be personally berated by another. That's not what this thread is for.

Absolutely all -- even unpopular -- opinions regarding the issue raised are most welcome, but if you're unable to form and articulate an opinion, and instead use the thread to attack others (and furthermore couple it with a request for nonresponse), then you'll have to find a new place to play.
53

Whuds, I’m afraid we’ll just have to agree to disagree on the tangential issues you’ve raised. Apart from location, I find no rational relationship between the caribbean schools approved in California and those that have been explicitly disapproved as a matter of law. There are many, many dangerous schools found in the caribbean, but this thread isn’t about those. And we risk confusing the issues, and more importantly, confusing folks who may just be starting to weigh these issues.


When I have some more time I’ll start a thread that devotes more room for discussion of these issues, but now I want to stay focused on DO or Ross/St. George.


And whether a school is entitled to federal funding was only raised to rebut the incorrect assertion raised by two separate people in this thread that Ross/St. George had no access to this funding. We’re agreed that federal funding has no bearing on the quality of a school or its grads.

54

I posted this back in 2004 but I think the point is still valid regarding foreign schools:


With any site, be it ours, SDN or Valuemd, you just have to read with caution. There are those who post with very accurate information, and those whose posts are less than accurate. I am by no means an expert on foreign med schools, but I have done my fair share of research on the topic. It seems the important issues among those who post a lot on the subject of foreign schools are:

  1. USMLE Scores

  2. 3rd & 4th year clerkship sites

  3. Residency Placement.

  4. Licensing Issues (Can you practice in the state of your choice)


    I’m sure other important issues exist, it’s just these concerns seem to arise most often. Personally, I would make sure any schools you are considering applying to be able to provide you with this information. Any school not willing to provide you with this information should raise concern immediately! The bottom line…DO YOUR RESEARCH!


    Caveat Emptor!
55

Jeff, these are very good points, and as equally valid for foreign as well as DO schools. As it relates to this thread, it may surprise some here to learn (it certainly surprised me) that getting this information from the osteopathic schools turned out to be much harder than from St. George or Ross.


In fact, SGU provides a full breakdown on their site. Ross now includes all of this including Step 1 pass rates, but I remember having some trouble finding this info last year, and several of the osteopathic schools simply refused to disclose some of this information, particularly with regard to USMLE Step 1 pass rates.


Touro, in particular, was quite deceptive to me. I only recently found out through other sources that they only have 3 Bay Area clinical sites, and send most of their students to SoCal and AZ for rotations. (None of this was mentioned during my interview.)

56
  • mdjd Said:
Whuds, I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree on the tangential issues you've raised. Apart from location, I find no rational relationship between the caribbean schools approved in California and those that have been explicitly disapproved as a matter of law. There are many, many dangerous schools found in the caribbean, but this thread isn't about those. And we risk confusing the issues, and more importantly, confusing folks who may just be starting to weigh these issues.

When I have some more time I'll start a thread that devotes more room for discussion of these issues, but now I want to stay focused on DO or Ross/St. George.

And whether a school is entitled to federal funding was only raised to rebut the incorrect assertion raised by two separate people in this thread that Ross/St. George had no access to this funding. We're agreed that federal funding has no bearing on the quality of a school or its grads.



My school is not dissaproved by any state I know this for a fact, But on the other hand is not approved by California, it is not Dangerous and it is chartered and listed BY WHO, that in itself enough for the rest of the world and as for the USA I can practice in at least 45 states right out of residency, and then close to the rest after being Licensed in another state, So yes we will disagree, The Caribbean route may not be for you or others but there are a group of people that so go to Caribbean schools and some are program Directors, One is a program director and Attending at the Emory Pain clinic this is a fact, with time would be able to factually name more but right now I was not prepared.

Now I do agree there are Diploma mills and schools not even chartered, No WHO listing at all and those are the ones to avoid, I do know and post about that. Also a school that has been disapproved by many states should be avoided due to possible future Licensing issues and again its fine to mention this stuff to discuss and educate.

May point is to dismiss the Caribbean as an option is closing the door to a very viable option to practice medicine.

It is not off topic as it was brought up in the thread. By the OP about DO or ROSS/SGU so as far as I see it, it is ok to talk about Caribbean route.
57

Whuds, it appears you’ve become confused, which is exactly what I was afraid would happen. If your school has not been explicitly disapproved by California, then it falls outside the scope of those schools I referred to.


I really hate to continue explaining this, as it’s getting off-topic, but maybe this will help:

  1. St. James, the school you attend, is not disapproved by California. Therefore, I’ve made no mention of my opinion on this school at all so far.

  2. SMU is explicitly disapproved by California. This school was the target of my earlier post. Because it’s explicitly disapproved in California, it falls within the group of schools I’ve stated bear no rational relationship to the CA-approved schools. You stated, “The school like SMU is young and just getting everything together.” This is where we disagree. Because SMU sought CA approval, and California deemed the quality of this school unacceptable as a matter of law, I too find it unacceptable.


    You also wrote, “[ I]n fact the approval process by that state [California] is in question by the methods they use.” I find their methods trustworthy and I’m thankful they have procedures to protect their citizens from graduates of schools they find unacceptable. So, you and I disagree here too.


    All of this disagreement between you and me on this issue is perfectly fine by me, but it has nothing to do with the title and purpose of this thread, which was to compare osteopathic schools to Ross & St. George.

  3. I haven’t dismissed the caribbean as an option, and from what I’ve seen so far, at least 2 schools (Ross & St. George) are far better options than any of the osteopathic schools. And this group of schools continues to be the topic of discussion.


    I hope this helps clear up any confusion, so we can keep this thread on track.


    Best,


    mdjd
58

Another thing you need to be aware of…find out approximately how much “time” their students (now talking about overseas schools) take OFF of are allowed OFF to study for Step 1. If a schools is boasting X or Y Step 1 pass rates you need to know are the students taking YEARS OFF to study? or is this pass rate right after the first two years because there is a huge difference. I mean heck anyone can do extremely well on Step 1 if they take a year to study for it! but you may not want to take a whole year off and hence need to know what the facts are.


DO trained students do not have to take Step 1 so this may be why they are not providing the info. You can get this info DO pass rates for Step 1 on the USMLE website.

59

Its all good I just think a healthy discussion of the Caribbean is in order,the OP did start the thread by asking about 2 Caribbean schools. DO is a very good option as well, it’s just so hard to say one is better than the other I feel it’s a personal choice more than a “This is better than that” type of thing. But unlike the USA schools the Caribbean is a different thing with some schools to avoid, I think it’s safe to go to any US school.

60

One thing to also consider is there are more residency spots available to DO students than MD. Very few allo programs are completely shut down to osteo grads, however I’m not aware of too many osteo programs that will take allos. This trend is changing and by the time you graduate it might not be a consideration. If you have an idea what specialty you are looking at then perhaps a search of the residency programs might help determine your future.