I have been chasing this dream for about 8 months now, another year of pre-reqs to go. 34, happily married, 3 kids (8, 2, and 10 mos.).
I watched an amazing but terrifying documentary last night called “Doctors’ Diaries” (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/body/doctor s-diaries.html). It follows 7 harvard med students through school and checks in on them periodically over the course of like 30 years. They all say the experience was rewarding but none of them seem to be able to stay in a marriage and they all seem to be tied to their work.
Has anybody here been able to manage the rigors of med school and residency and managed to stay married? How has it affected your relationship with your kids?
Is it possible to be a good doctor 40 hours a week? I believe I will love being a doctor and I will be very good, but I don’t want it to consume me. I have a wonderful family that I love dearly and I don’t want to become a stranger to them. Any advice/encouragement?
Stay the course and stay off of SDN.
You can work as much or as little as you want. You need to strike a balance you can live with and so can your family while still earning a decent wage. My mentor became an attending June 2011 in Internal Medicine. He averaged 28.6 hours for the year. He brought home a very nice salary. He’s had more time with his kids and wife than he’s ever had. He took his wife on a Carribean vacation for 2 weeks and the entire family to include college-aged daughter and her worthless boyfriend to Disney World for another week. How? For one week every month he would drive to another state, work there, and then come home after the week was over.
What I’ve noticed is that how much or how little you work is your choice, even as a physician. You can make a comfortable living and have time with your family if you are willing to sacrifice a bit. Perhaps you might have to travel to another part of the country or whatever but in the end sacrifices will have to be made. Perhaps foregoing being an employee and instead starting your own practice. The more things you need the less wiggle room you have. As in, if you have to be a pediatric transplant surgeon, doing research and teaching at a university, on the west coast…because you have to live by your relatives…well you have limits. If instead you want to work in primary care (FM, IM, Peds…) and don’t care where you live as long as you and your immediate family are together things open up. The more flexible YOU are in your situation then the more opportunities you’ll have. You’ll make a lot less than the transplant surgeon but you’ll have a lot more time. In medicine money and free time are inversely proportional with “free time” defined as time not doing anything related to medicine.
In short you will not be a surgeon of any kind if you want to keep your family. Specialties with some surgery include optho and urology which offer a great salary and lifestyle. It is no wonder that they are also ridiculously competitive. So go into a field in medicine you will love and is flexible enough to do anywhere.
At least that’s what’s been recommended to me and the advice I’m going to follow.
And again…Stay the course AND Stay off of SDN!
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PS: I know you didn’t mention SDN but that is what I’m doing and it sounds catchy! 
IMHO, medical school and residency don’t lend themselves well to a 40 hour max work week.
- pathdr2b Said:
I agree 1000%!
I was talking about the end goal. During school and residency our lives will suck and if we're not careful we can destroy our families. However I got the impression she was asking about once we're passed the gauntlet.
Thanks for the advice, I guess I was really asking 2 separate questions:
- Understanding that med school and residency are going to take a significant number of hours per week, has anybody here been able to cram it all in, and maintain a decent relationship with the spouse and kids?
- Once you get through the wringer of med school/residency, can you be a good doc without being a workaholic? -based on the reply and some other threads I feel better, I see that it is quite possible!
My friend/mentor says #1 is close to impossible. Some claim to be able to so I guess it depends on how quickly and thorough you are able to learn the material. He took a long time but on the flip side he KNOWS the material very well. He also came from a research background so he had hopes of also doing research as an attending so he really focused on the first two years of school. Once he was in residency he decided against research. He saw the life of a clinician-scientist after residency and he isn’t willing to sacrifice family time for it. So it’s all give and take.
That’s that infamous PBS video?!?!
It seems like every non-trad stumbles across it sooner or later. Even though it is a documentary (and a very informative one at that) I do not let it dissuade me of what I have a passion for and what I feel like I can significantly contribute to the profession.
At the end of the day that documentary will not and can not predict how it will affect you relationship towards your spouse nor your children. The only factor that has that much influence for positive or negative change is…well, you!
I feel like this infamous video is akin to a basic “if, then” logical assumption taught in school:
If A = B and B = C, then A = C…
So if these 5 “documented” Harvard grads are divorced and tied to their work
and these 5 Harvard grads are doctors,
then all doctors are divorced and tied to their work…
I think not. I once heard a very wise saying. It goes something like:
“Stay the course AND stay off SDN” -Croooz
(Wow! That does sound catchy…)
Hi never_satisfied,
I don’t have any answers for you. However, I do want to let you know that I share your concerns. I’m happily married with one child and trying for another (looking to have 3 of these rug rats). I’m shooting for the summer between first and second year but with my luck, we’ll have our next child in the middle of the year right before some major exam.
For me, the most stressful time so far in my journey was when I was working full time and studying for the MCATs. The amount of pressure you undertake when you’re trying to do well on a test that you desperately want to take only once is a bit on the extreme side. I spent 40 hour working and 40 hours studying every week for 3 months. I lived, breathed, and slept MCAT. I’m surprised my wife didn’t divorce me. I was barely home, always frustrated (at myself), and always felt guilty for not spending enough time with my child. Will medical school and residency be more of the same? I’m not sure.
The orthopedic surgeon that I’m shadowing now is exactly what I was anticipating: single mom, long hours, late nights in the operating room, full time nannies, and eating out for dinner every night with her son. But on the other hand, she’s an amazing doctor. She gives her job everything she’s got and then some.
I think for those of us that are a little older, that’s a question we have to answer for ourselves. How far do we want to go? Where is that line for us? How much of our lives should we give?
I’m going into this expecting to put in the long hours. Our plan is to have my wife stay at home after our second child so only one parent has the insane work schedule. That’s not going to solve all our problems and it’s going to make a serious dent in our savings but if we can live lean until I start making money again during residency ($50k is a good salary where I live), I think we can manage.
I don’t know what the future holds. We’ve planned out the best we could, built up our savings, and assumed the worst.
I’ll keep you posted when I start medical school in August. Med school with kids? This should be fun.
It’s an important question, and there are oh so many variables… I’m 35, and we have a 15 yr old daughter (lives with her mom most of the time), a 5 year old daughter, and another daughter due any day now.
I would actually argue that you stand a better chance of making it work having already established the foundation of your marriage and family BEFORE school… whereas the doctor’s diaries folks got married while in school… I’ve seen that show, and family definitely doesn’t take top priority (at least that’s the given perception.)
I think you have to really examine your marriage, your motives for going to school in the first place, and your surrounding support structure. My husband is my wing man, and he is as or more excited about me doing this than I am sometimes. We’ve talked about all the stressors… and how we will combat them. But we’ve also taken the last 2 years (pre-req phase) to really and truly work on our marriage and on our time with the girls. (Trying to make sure that we function as a family…not as a mere group of people living in the same house. There’s a difference.)
We talk to the girls all the time about what we’re doing and why, making sure they understand the bigger picture. We talk a lot about ‘seasons’ and how the one we are headed into is a crazy, chaotic one… we solicit feedback from them about how they’re feeling.
Also, this year my husband has been working as a contract pilot doing recon Army missions in Afghanistan…he is gone 3 months at a time. It’s been an AMAZING testimony of the solidity of our marriage and family, and it’s given me that added strength and courage of “yes, we can do this” about school.
My OBGYN has 4 kids…his family is amazing. His wife and children work as a team with him to do life through medicine… They make it work. And then I’ve known other doctors whose marriages crumbled under the pressure.
Long story short…I think it’s definitely possible. But like everything else on this journey, it takes a ton of work…what time you have with your family has to really and truly count, and expectations have to be set ahead of each week.
Talk to Gabelerman on this site…he has more daughters than I do, and even had one while in med school. Now, he’s doing residency… he has a lot of good insight about this one.
- carrieliz Said:
THIS is a critical point!
I think there's a HUGE difference between matriculating in med school as a traditional student versus a nontraditional one.
I think the trad versus nontrad applies to career satisfaction as well.
Great points and thank you for the advice and support. Congrats syr_eng2md on getting in and carrieliz on your daughter! After my initial panic I thought a lot about the documentary and the people in it, and my own journey. Basically i just need to talk to a lot of people who have had all kinds of experiences, and decide if this commitment is absolutely right for us (notice i didn’t say me). I honestly can’t think of anything I’d rather do for the long haul, but my family is #1.
I don’t feel quite so anxious anymore about having to get in as soon as possible. I remember when i first joined the Air Force i was wanting to go to boot camp right away, i thought i knew what to expect, and it sucked so bad those first few weeks! I remember that feeling of being completely overwhelmed, in a totally foreign environment, the kids in the movie reminded me of that feeling. So yeah, I’m not really looking forward to that again!
I’m glad i finally registered on here, i have been lurking around the site here and there for the last few months. There’s no way i would have gotten through my bachelor’s degree without the encouragement of a really great friend of mine who was doing it too. He had quit Navy SEAL training a few years earlier and he had never really gotten over it (even though he said he had), there was no way in hell he was going to let me drop out when i brought it up a few times. As you all know, it’s not easy to find other people to talk to that are crazy enough to take on a challenge this immense in their 30s, 40s or even 50s (you guys really are crazy!).
Good luck to everyone and thanks again, I’m sure this won’t be the last time I reach out to you all.
I really enjoyed reading your “mini-bios” so here are my stats for those who are interested:
Location: Warner Robins GA
Age: 34
Family: Married, 3 kids under 10
Undergrad: BS Mechanical Engineering (2006), 2.8 overall GPA (yes…its low…i get it)
Pre-req GPA: Started in Oct 2012, 4.0 so far
MCAT: Haven’t taken it yet
Occupation: US Air Force Mechanical Engineer (10 years prior enlisted), no prior medical experience
" As you all know, it’s not easy to find other people to talk to that are crazy enough to take on a challenge this immense in their 30s, 40s or even 50s (you guys really are crazy!)."
Thank you! 
I say keep on keepin on. I have 2 kids, a great husband, work 30 hours a week, and am in my 4th semester of pre-med studies (to which I commute at least an hour each way). It’s been really challenging, and also totally worth it. It’s been my dream to go to medical school, and I’ve consistently kept analyzing that dream and if its “worth it.” Everytime I come up for air, I say yes, and keep going. I think that if you keep the dialogue going, keep re-configuring the family/rest of life balance, you’ll be good. It’s impossible to analyze the future, and if you start to worry about what med school, residency, post residency will be like you won’t make it through the next day. I just do it one day at a time.
Hey there. I’m going to chime in on this one, too. I think what Carrie pointed out, and PathDr reinforced about Doctor’s Diaries is that these were mostly traditional medical students. They went straight through from high school to college to med school and then tried to put a family or marriage together. I am remarkably glad, actually, that I did not take the premed route earlier on. The things I’ve learned about managing my time, prioritizing your life, putting those you love first without sacrificing your own personal goals have really allowed me to excel in my premedical studies. I believe these talents (yes, managing our lives as well as we do is a talent) will translate to medical school and residency well.
I am in a premed mentor program of which we had orientation the other night. One of the docs who spoke to us all is a 32 year old Adolescent medicine fellow married to a similar aged Family Medicine doc and one of the biggest things she brought up was the difficulty with planning a family at this point and her fear that she just won’t be able to get around to it. I feel for my future younger colleagues who will be facing the same challenges and I will help fight the good fight in trying to limit bias against women having babies in residency, etc. However, I must admit, I sure am happy to have that “out of the way”, if you will. I already have my family and a firm foothold on how to manage multiple commitments and differing goals. I think as old premeds we have the unique position of truly understanding the rapid passing of time and know how to get the most out of it. Whether it is losing some sleep to read our kids an extra story (or two or three) and then staying up later than usual to hit the books on our own, or letting a relative take the kid(s) for the weekend so we can study or even just have a night alone, we know how to manage. Yes, med school, residency, and life after may be insane and may be everything we’re used to times 1,000. But, we already have an advantage there because we are used to something similar. Traditional students, frankly, don’t have a clue what it’s like to have to schedule the grocery shopping (and make sure it’s on double coupon day), take someone to a dentist’s appt., coordinate school pick ups, meet the work deadlines, AND study for Physics and Ochem, write a lab report, and do MCAT prep. So, I think while it may not be pretty at times, we all “get” that already and we shouldn’t sell ourselves short that we will somehow crumble under the pressures of medical school and residency and working life after. Most of us will be okay! Best wishes to us all on this unique journey. As mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, and grandparents perhaps, we are all well equipped to handle what life throws us at even medical school and the whirlwind that comes after.
- shanport7300 Said:
I am in a premed mentor program of which we had orientation the other night. One of the docs who spoke to us all is a 32 year old Adolescent medicine fellow married to a similar aged Family Medicine doc and one of the biggest things she brought up was the difficulty with planning a family at this point and her fear that she just won't be able to get around to it. I feel for my future younger colleagues who will be facing the same challenges and I will help fight the good fight in trying to limit bias against women having babies in residency, etc. However, I must admit, I sure am happy to have that "out of the way", if you will. I already have my family and a firm foothold on how to manage multiple commitments and differing goals. I think as old premeds we have the unique position of truly understanding the rapid passing of time and know how to get the most out of it. Whether it is losing some sleep to read our kids an extra story (or two or three) and then staying up later than usual to hit the books on our own, or letting a relative take the kid(s) for the weekend so we can study or even just have a night alone, we know how to manage. Yes, med school, residency, and life after may be insane and may be everything we're used to times 1,000. But, we already have an advantage there because we are used to something similar. Traditional students, frankly, don't have a clue what it's like to have to schedule the grocery shopping (and make sure it's on double coupon day), take someone to a dentist's appt., coordinate school pick ups, meet the work deadlines, AND study for Physics and Ochem, write a lab report, and do MCAT prep. So, I think while it may not be pretty at times, we all "get" that already and we shouldn't sell ourselves short that we will somehow crumble under the pressures of medical school and residency and working life after. Most of us will be okay! Best wishes to us all on this unique journey. As mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, and grandparents perhaps, we are all well equipped to handle what life throws us at even medical school and the whirlwind that comes after.
- croooz Said:
Croooz gives quality advice.
The short answer is this: yes. You can do this without destroying your family.
Doctors' Diaries was an entertaining watch, but you must understand that it is a one-sided perspective to a career track that has many perspectives.
Case in point: My wife and volunteered at a summer camp near Laramie, WY. We got to know the parents of some kids and I found out from the wife that her husband went through med school. She told me that he did not make it through his first year (did not say if was because he was held back or quit of his own accord). She then went on to say that after they had their first kid, he went back to med school and -because- of him now having a full family he made it through just fine. I.e., converse to the SDN perspective, there is a guy who credits his success in medical school to having a family while a med student.
There certainly is a stigma that some associate with married med students. When I was in the Navy, the very doctor that inspired me to pursue medical school told me something interesting upon finding out that I was engaged to my (now) wife. He said that every med student friend he had, who were married or engaged at the time, failed out or quit med school. He told me point blank that I would be doomed to the same fate, and emplored me to call of my relationship. I laugh at that now...I'm cruising straight to medical school and I'll cruise straight through it - and my wife just had our first baby.
Another point to consider: You should really be on the lookout for support in your endeavor. This forum is a great source, but we cannot get to know you in person, for the most part. After being in college for almost 2 years, I transfered to another college with "more prestige" and "acadmeic rigor." When I got there, I found a total lack of support, and sympathy, for married students. I hated it, it affected my GPA and now I am back at the school I need to be, which has a healthy population of married undergradute students and faculty. I am also looking forward to applying to Rocky Vista University in Parker, CO because I hear that a significant portion of the student body is married. You must have support from people who are like you and pursuing the same thing. At least I find that is what I need; people I can relate to in terms of age, maturity, and life experience.
My cousin, whom I am close to, is going through this as well. He is pursuing a PhD in math and has come to a crossroads recently. He and his wife (they also have to young kids) had decided that they could not deal with the grad student lifestyle anymore, and questioned whether or not he should even be pursuing the degree. Ultimately he decided, with their support, that he would change tracks and earn his degree sooner by taking the research route (as opposed to the more traditional route of teaching undergrad classes while taking grad classes).
You can do this. Of course, the support of your family is required - but by all means it's not all like the picture painted by SDN downers and Doctors' Diaries. There are wonderful programs out there - for example the flexible MD program at MN state, which allows for completion of an MD in up to 6 years. Search around!! Seek out likeminded folk!! We're rooting for you!!
- Jfowler Said:
- croooz Said:
Croooz gives quality advice.
Tanks!
- Jfowler Said:
There are quite a bit of these but they're not advertised. My mentor/friend who I mentioned I forgot to say that he went to one of these. His was for 5 years and significantly reduced the stress. The had a newborn and his 1 year old son was admitted and was touch&go for months so my friend failed that block and had to repeat the year. The school was more than understanding and helped him out tremendously. So it took him 6 years to graduate med school...and another 6 to finish his IM residency because of more family emergencies. He and his wife kept the family together through it all and now they are on the other side. It will not be easy and we all will be tested in one way or another and probably more than once but like fowler said WE'RE ALL ROOTING FOR YA & EACH OTHER!!!!
Y’all are right about the longer programs that are not advertised. I know a school nearby that has a five year plan, but there is ZERO mention of it on their website, in their literature, etc. It’s just not waved around as an option. It’s too bad, really, because perhaps more people would consider medical school if there was at least some flexibility on the route to the MD. MD/PhD’s often can vary their timeline to suit their needs and that of the departments they are associated with. I don’t understand why medical education and medicine in general seems to be behind the times and so slow to advance in some respects. Just look at the ridiculousness of premed requirements. Why not have premeds take far more undergraduate upper level bio course, a one semester physics course geared toward the health professions (similar to the Physics a lot of PT, nursing, etc. students take), maybe only one semester of organic. I by no means think they need to “dumb” down the requirements, but they do seem rather antiquated. The new MCAT gives me hope that there is some serious thought being put to this exact issue by the powers that be. Some major changes in curricula at medical schools give hope that “they” are looking to the future and realizing also that there are many ways to learn and it’s not always one size fits all. No reason medicine(and premed work) HAS to be taught the same as it always has. But, it’s seems the old guard of medicine really likes the “we had to do it, so you have to, too” mentality. Innovative nontrads like all of us here, and the newer generation of open minded students entering the field could play a crucial role in changing the face of medical education. I hope much further down the line I can play a part myself.
To be frank, I think far more of our younger counterparts are going to demand the system to change. Yes, we older premeds with established families will have our say, too, but the younger generations are rather used to getting their way and they also see ways to achieve what they want without having to go the route of those before them. For example, a very bright, friendly classmate of mine of about 20-21 was premed, but after spending some time working food service at the local teaching hospital had way too many negative experiences with residents and newly minted docs that made her change her mind. She told me one of her friends of a friend is a neonatalogist and told her that if she had to do it again she’d become a PA instead. She mentioned her reasons including less educational debt, less time commitment, ability to specialize still there, decent pay right out of school, and nice hours. Granted neonatalogy, I imagine, is not a “ROAD” track, and probably is one of the more stressful and exhaustive specialties. However, she brings up points that many of my younger classmates care about and they are listening. A PA program near me has a reputation for being more difficult to get into than a nearby medical school. So many students are applying that they have made the standards for acceptance fairly rigorous.
My young, bright classmate herself has in fact decided to apply to a PA program. I think she’d make an excellent physician and I personally would love to have her as a fellow med student and future colleague, but she will be lost to the PA world.
Medical schools are going to have no choice but make some changes to adapt to the new generation as well as to us older folks reaching for our dreams. There are far more of us out there than I even imagined when I found this site in 2009 thinking I must be crazy to even consider medical school and lo and behold a google search gets me here. However, the old premeds are all over! I don’t even really get any strange looks anymore or have to tell a long drawn out story to justify my choice when I tell someone I’m a premed. That’s a sign that us nontrad premeds and medical students are becoming far more common. So, our needs should be taken seriously, but it will likely be our younger counterparts who will really push the envelope in getting the “old guard” to establish some new ways.
I, personally, am too darn anxious to start medical school that I don’t think I’d want to do a five or six year plan, but is it nice to know the option may be out there? You betcha! A doc of mine and informal mentor who passed away last year, told me something that has stuck with me. He said that once you are in medical school, they (the school) will do whatever it takes (within reason, of course)to keep you there and get you to graduate. They don’t want to be kicking out half their class or having a chunk drop out if they can help it. That tuition is counted on, but that seat they give to a “worthy” student is a big deal to them, too, and they want you to succeed. So, I imagine also, that if some schools are not advertising 5 year plans, or 6 year or other possible options, it may not mean that this isn’t possible. You never know unless you ask! (Of course, I probably wouldn’t ask until after I was accepted!)
Wow, so I’ll get off my soap box now and back to the MCAT! You see, studying magnetism and projectile motion and frigging inclined planes to ridiculous depth required of me to get into medical school has me questioning things to a major extent. I’ll play the game, and I’ll play it well, because that is what I have to do to get where I want(need)to be. But, gosh darn it, if I can help change some rules down the line, I will JUMP at the chance to chime in with some suggestions. I mean, look at the time and money I’m (and we all are) spending and the brain space I’m using up studying magnetism and trig functions I will never use again all to play the game? But, I digress, back to memorizing my expressions for standing waves…
Oh, and, by the way, STAY THE COURSE AND STAY OFF SDN! (evil, evil place)
- croooz Said:
I can't count the number of "bent rules" I've seen with my own eyes, at a certain medical school which I think is perfectly fine for extenuating circumstances.
And there seems to be a rule of thumb with most medical schools, if they admit you, they'll do whatever they have to to make sure you graduate.
- pathdr2b Said:
- croooz Said:
I can't count the number of "bent rules" I've seen with my own eyes, at a certain medical school which I think is perfectly fine for extenuating circumstances.
And there seems to be a rule of thumb with most medical schools, if they admit you, they'll do whatever they have to to make sure you graduate.
The two hardest things to do in academia are:
1. Get accepted to medical school
2. Get kicked out of medical school
As long as the student is truly trying the school has a vested interest in them graduating. Attrition is low in med school but that doesn't make it any easier.