Hello, all. I’m 33 and was a moron in college(s). Coupled with some medical issues that didn’t attract the attention they should have at the time, I have years of “meh” at best grades and no degree to show for it.
I now have an opportunity to get an associates, heavy on hard science, paying cash, and starting over. If I do as well as I expect to, I’ll have a 3.8-3.9 for those ~65 credits and Bio I/II, Chem I/II, Phsyics I/II, A&P I/II.
I live near a decent school I can then transfer to for a bachelors. Again, the plan is to go heavy on the science, of all varieties. Ideally, I’ll have ~130 credits in the 3.8-3.9 range when I finish the bachelors.
I expect to be able to shadow at the practice my family doctor works at. It’s a low-income clinic that we started using before we got insurance, and we love our doctor so we continue going there. I also have several local hospitals I can volunteer at, as well.
So, I can do lots of volunteer and shadow hours, I can tell a fairly compelling story, and in a perfect world I’ll have ~120 credits at 2.0 cumulative as well as ~130 credits at 3.8+. That still gives me a sorrow-inducing cumulative GPA.
Do I have any options at all? I’m fine with DO schools if need be. Medicine interests me, and more importantly I feel I can do a great deal of good (in other words, I sound like every other introduction thread, I suppose.)
Retaking some classes is not an option because they’re pretty specific to the first school I went to.
Some credit (and lack of credit) is from Western Governors University. Also can’t be retaken, per se, but will those pass/fail grades count at all, either for or against me?
I’m willing to put the next 10+ years into this, as long as I know there is some chance of success. I’m married, so foreign probably isn’t practical.
If this can be done, I’m 100% willing to take the entirety of a bachelors, and potentially another year of just science courses beyond that. I suppose a masters is an option as well, though my understanding is that it wouldn’t be useful in terms of GPA.
Am I out of the running permanently, or can I fix this?
Schools look at your grades for past performance, and they also look at the trend of your grades. Supposedly they also consider your course load, difficulty of school, and other factors that may have impacted your grades. DO schools let you retake and replace poor grades, but I don’t think AMCAS will do that. Usually you are afforded the opportunity to explain any discrepancies, like in your personal statement or secondaries (will be school dependent). At interviews, I was asked to explain any grades below a B. I would definitely highlight the “why” of your past but also what you did that allowed you to succeed in your more recent classes.
I looked at my AACOMAS application, and the P/F courses aren’t included in the “quality points” section or GPA, but they are definitely still listed in the hash out of all the classes you took. They went so far as to count all my P/F classes as worth 0.0 hours despite me actually getting 1-3hrs of credits for them during undergrad.
I would definitely get with a pre-med advisor to discuss your best way forward. They would have way more insight into how ADCOMs think and what it would take for you to be competitive. I don’t think it’s ever too late; it’s all about how you present who you are and how you became that person. My 2 cents.
That’s helpful, thank you. A drastic upward trend, I can handle. I wouldn’t cry if all the P/F grades were not factored in. That would bring me down to ~60 credits from before + 130 or so for a bachelors starting from zero. Helps the cumulative average a bit, I suppose.
It sounds like the takeaway from all this is that as long as I can explain, and can prove I can do the work, it’s doable.
- Creative Username Said:
Do I have any options at all? I'm fine with DO schools if need be. Medicine interests me, and more importantly I feel I can do a great deal of good (in other words, I sound like every other introduction thread, I suppose.)
You have options. Looking over the AMCAS stats, if you're white or Asian your odds of getting in with a high 2.X GPA and an above average or better MCAT are around 30%. If you're AA or Latino your chances are higher.
This isn't a binary matter. Can you get in? Yes, you can. The question is how much time and money are you willing and able to invest in yourself and how low would the risk have to be to make you decide that expense to be worthwhile. To go to an extreme example, say that you get an MS and PhD in some sort of clinical science, get a pile of publications, do tours with the Peace Corps and Doctors Without Borders, get your EMT certification and volunteer for 500-1,000 hours per year... I would venture a 99% chance you'll be accepted somewhere. Examine investment, payoff, and risk. That investment could easily be $100k+ in loans and 15+ years of your life, nevermind the years and cost of medical school as well as the years you'll spend as an underpaid resident working obscene hours. Heck, that would be about 25 years until your life outside of work has any sort of financial comfort. And keep in mind, there will always be some schools that will say no regardless of what you do because of that undergrad GPA. And of course, there's still always going to be a risk that it just doesn't work and you've spent this time and money, reached middle age, and didn't get what you want. Of course, I did say this is an extreme example. But it's the sort of actuarial calculation you need to do. How much time and money are you be willing to invest remediating your credentials? How good would your chances need to end up being to not make the expense not worthwhile? Are you willing to take a lifestyle that may preclude a lot of things in your personal life? How much will the fact that a number of schools won't look past your undergraduate GPA no matter what affect your decision? These are the questions you need to think about. And none of them are binary; all are sliding scales.
My undergraduate GPA is lower than you project yours to be (2.59), so I'm in a similar boat.
That’s even more encouraging. I’ll take a moment to work through it from that standpoint, in the hopes that it might be useful for someone else, as well. (Long though it may be)
Time: I can throw years at it. I expect at least an AA (lots of science), a BS heavy on science, and maybe a year between the two taking relevant classes not part of the degree, solely to bring up my GPA. An MS is reasonable - screw it, I’ll be old either way. A PhD is not out of the question. EMT certification is, I suppose, an option. International volunteering probably isn’t viable, shadowing and volunteering in hospitals certainly is.
I like the actuarial perspective - I’m in underwriting currently, and though I’m not an actuary by any means, I get the overall concept.
Location: We’re happy where we are, but moving wouldn’t be a crisis (though we do have a support system here, which is important).
Odds: For me personally, I think 50/50 is the tipping point to be worth the investment.
Money: I’m figuring about $5k for the associates (Clovis CC, about a grand a semester), $10k-$15k for the BS (mid-range state-funded local university), maybe another $10k or so for a DIY postbacc or classes in between AA and BS, all in cash paid as I go. Pocket change, in the scheme of things.
3 years for undergrad (inclusive of summers), and I realistically would spend that time anyway on some sort of degree so neither the dollar cost nor the opportunity cost of those are factors.
Let’s say $10k in annual revenue lost to volunteer/shadow time, so $30k. Closer to $20k, as I’m not taxed on money I don’t make.
I’m 33 now, I’ll be 36 with a BS. A max of $60k poorer, inclusive of opportunity cost and reduced work hours, all out out pocket and not needing to be paid back later. At the end of the day, I take a ~35% pay cut for three years, and have a respectable bachelors degree regardless of admission cycle outcome.
The odds of a November, 2012 Powerball drawing were 1 in 175MM, at $2 a play. Spending $60k improves the odds somewhat, but certainly not to 50/50. Odds of being struck by lightning are 1:10,000. Only 10% of those people die, so 1:100,000 of the general population.
Match aside, my risk is mostly focused on the outcome of those first three years. Anecdotally, at least, one is far more likely to wash out during med school than to not get a residency. Making it through undergrad all over again with results that make me a viable candidate is at least somewhat correlated to graduating med school.
Given that I get in somewhere, the remaining years of school and residency have an obvious payoff. I’ll round up and assume I’m 45 until all is said and done. That still leaves me with 20 years to practice, which should be enough to pay off the loans and retire comfortably, with the knowledge that I’ve made some positive contribution to the world. 65 isn’t an absolute upper limit, either, barring age-related issues.
At the end of the day, it would certainly be rated accordingly, but someone would write that hypothetical policy.
This is not only an interesting thought exercise, but very useful overall. Thank you for the perspective!
Short version: 3 years and 60 grand max is a worthwhile risk on the realistic odds, especially considering I’ll get a bachelors in something, so it’s pretty close to a null risk, it’s not like I’ll begrudge the hours spent studying or volunteering if I were to not get in. The risk is really in getting in/not getting in, and once I’m in, the risk of total failure is somewhat reduced.
- Creative Username Said:
[. . .]
Odds: For me personally, I think 50/50 is the tipping point to be worth the investment.
Now remember where I said that it's not binary? I'm going to go back on that a bit. If you're an odds person- and it sounds like you are- check out this table from AMCAS. Acceptance rates by GPA and MCAT over three years. Note that this is for white applicants, which I'm guessing you are simply because it would be numerically relevant if you weren't and you didn't raise the issue.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/ 2012fact...
Let's say that you're in the MCAT range of 33-35 (statistically, you'll probably need to be). Your odds of an acceptance are about 1-in-3. And if you compare the the values in that cell to the surrounding ones it seems to be a solid part of the trend rather than a statistical fluke. But here's the thing: your odds of getting in are only 1-in-3 if you assume applicants to be more or less homogenous throughout that cohort. I can almost guarantee you they aren't.
What does this mean? Your odds are not truly 1-in-3 but a function where 1-in-3 is peak density. Obviously, there were people in this category who would have little-to-no chance of an acceptance (and in turn didn't get in anywhere). Which mathematically necessitates that a plurality exists in the cohort whose odds were significantly better; perhaps 1-in-2 or higher.
At this point it stops being a game of numbers and starts being a game of credentials. Obviously it's a range where people can still get in without being statistical flukes. What you need to do is collect as much information as possible about what makes a candidate successful and then find out how to get those credentials on your CV.
Gather as much information as possible. Even if a person tells you that you'll never get in, take it. The idea is that as you collect more information about what you can and need to do to get an acceptance, the more that information will regress toward a mean. Don't take any piece of advice as gospel. But keep collecting information until you start to see trends emerge. Read articles. Talk to your doctors. Ask people for anecdotes. Contact any physicians in your family for their thoughts. Go to the OPM Conference in June- trust me, it's by far the best thing I've ever done for my journey. All those things are good for you.
You should definitely scan the AACOM website as well. The application process, numbers game, and somewhat of what schools look at in their “holistic” approach is slightly different for DO schools.
No physicians in my family, but I’ll definitely make it a point to ask questions when I come into contact with any, as appropriate.
DO schools are absolutely on the table, as well - the end result is practicing medicine either way.
Incidentally, you’re correct, I’m white so neither advantage nor disadvantage there.
I’ve moved from “Can I do this” to “I can do this, just need to work out the details.” Time for me to start skimming threads for the non-numeric factors that have worked for people and get as many of them as possible.
My two cents is that I would not try to invest a tremendous amount of energy trying to make yourself into someone who got in. I’d try to maximize who you are yourself.
Keep up that relationship with the clinic you have a tie to. That sounds like something you could volunteer at and care about.
By all means, get a bachelor’s degree and do well at it. Take courses that will enhance your understanding of the material when you get to med school. Genetics, microbiology, immunology - those are some of the “extras” I’d be looking at.
Volunteering is in a sense preparing yourself for the sacrifices of time involved in preparing for medicine while in school/residency and in practicing medicine. Shadowing is preparing you to take on the role of physician in some sense, as you see role models you want to (or don’t want to!) emulate. Your education may involve some grade repair but generally should focus on gaining a good background in the sciences.
Who do you want to be as a doctor. Work on developing that and you will have a much stronger application than if you volunteer for habitat for humanity and get EMT certification and work at the food pantry - but don’t really care about any of those things, just think they “look good”. Being an EMT will likely not advance your application significantly. Being a volunteer firefighter for 5 years likely will. One is a short term investment in time. WORKING as an EMT, or a firefighter, shows something else.
I hope my gist is getting across. 50 min past when I should go to bed so am stopping at this point with just saying - best of luck! You possess one of the most important qualities to succeed --willingness to persist!
Kate
Well said. I took a few minutes to really think about who I want to be as a doctor, and I think I have a pretty good picture. I realize that someone has to go to Somalia, and someone has to do surgery. But I’m not sure either of those are me. I’m drawn to primary care, because that’s where I can make the biggest impact on lives. It’s also where the biggest personal impact has been made on me, I think.
And relevant shadowing/volunteering enables me to start making a small difference very soon.
I’m not chasing this for the money - as long as I can pay off loans, I’m good. We’ve been rich, we’ve been poor, and we’re somewhere in the middle right now and we have most everything we need.
Obviously who I want to be in ten years or so is subject to some refinement, but I think I have a pretty good starting point.
Move to Texas, spend a year establishing residency, apply to Texas schools under the academic fresh start program, enjoy any grades older than ten years being washed from your record
Keep your current grades up, and take hard classes - anything that contains Molecular in the title is good! If your bad grades are over 7 years old, relax a bit. Point out that you had two different rounds in college and that your 3.8 is representative of the person you are now. Take time in your secondaries to address your GPA issue, and if you can rock the MCAT do it. Try to get some ECs that look good. I took the following advice, and it helped me get my letter of acceptance so I will pass it on:
Volunteer with Hospice care. Hospice cares for dying patients. I spent a lot of time in a memory ward with a few scary CNAs and Dementia patients, some of whom died during the time I spent in service.
I also volunteered at a hospital, and I asked for a tough, direct care role. I ended up working on a ward with sickle cell patients. I thought it was a cake walk, but everyone else called them a challenging population. I made friends with the patients with juice boxes and respect in my pockets. Srsly!
Shadow a doc or two, have one of them write one of your LORs.
So four things hospice service, address it all in your secondaries, rock the MCAT, and an LOR from a doc.