Need Suggestions

Hi, my name is Karrah and I am 38 years old. I will be starting to take classes this spring semester to complete my bachelors degree. I initially majored (1992) in music, but now I’ll probably major in kinesiology/exercise science or nutrition. Back when I was in college before, I had a lot of psychological problems and many deaths in my family. Anyway, I ended up withdrawing from about 19 credit hours. Fast forward to late 2008. I ended up having to get on disability (despite getting off my medication just before I got on it) and have been on it ever since. It really helps pay for some of my bills and living expenses. I am now free of medication and better than ever. I’m hoping that by the time I apply to medical school I will have gotten off disability.


Do you think that me being on disability and withdrawing from 19 credits back in 1992-1995 would not allow me to get into any medical school program? My ultimate goal is to be an anesthesiologist. Also, I will be over the age of 40 by the time I apply to medical school. Is this too old? Are schools that are MD or DO more accepting to older students? If I end up completing a DO medical school, when I apply for anesthesiology residency, will I be at a disadvantage given that I just completed my training at a DO school than MD?


I really stink in math and some of the heavy math related sciences. I plan to get a tutor and take those classes at a community college instead. Also, if I go part time (to help reduce my load) for the general ed, will I be at a disadvantage or would it be best to take my pre-reqs on a full time basis? I don’t have any kids, not married, but in a relationship. We don’t plan to have any kids so my lifestyle is pretty boring. I am asian, so I’m not sure if I would be at an slight advantage in terms of entrance. Sorry for all the questions!


I will be moving probably in 6 months to another state. I’m currently living in KS and not liking it one bit. I’m considering Michigan, Tennessee or Maine to complete my bachelors.


Karrah

Hi Karrah welcome to OPM. First, I don’t think having a disability would disqualify you from medical school. I believe the ADA prevents schools from discriminating based on disabilities. Second, as far as withdrawing back in 1995 some schools may look unfavorable on this and others may not. I would think the worsted case is you may have to do some explaining as to why you dropped out when you go for your interviews. Third, if you do some searching on this site you will find that there are a lot of people older then 40 starting their first year of medical school. On person will be starting this fall and is 60. It can be done. Fourth, I think both DO and MD accept older students. From some of the research I’ve done on different school’s it does seem that MD schools are a little more difficult to get into. They often require a higher GPA and MCAT score. I don’t think either program would put you at a disadvantage when it comes to residency.

  • Karrah Said:
Do you think that me being on disability and withdrawing from 19 credits back in 1992-1995 would not allow me to get into any medical school program?



Hi Karrah,

Welcome to OPM. You have a lot of good questions, so I'll have to break up my response into 2 posts in order to answer them (technical glitch w/ the site).

Your past disability should have no bearing on admission to any medical school. In fact, there are only a few rare exceptions in which a current disability could be disqualifying. Reading between the lines of your post, I assume you are talking about a mental health issue. As long as you can meet the following social/behavioral requirements, your past problems should not be an issue.

1. Exercise good judgment.

2. Develop mature, sensitive, and effective relationships with patients.

3. Function effectively under stress.

4. Tolerate physically, emotionally, and mentally demanding workloads.

5. Adapt to changing environments, display flexibility, and learn to function in the face of uncertainties inherent in the clinical problems of patients.

6. Remain awake and alert.

7. Measure, calculate, reason, analyze, integrate and synthesize.

As far as the 19 credits worth of W's is concerned - it's not necessarily the deal breaker most people make it out to be.

I took a leave of absence halfway through the spring semester of my junior year (1999) and ended up with a string of 12 W's on my transcript due to some personal issues that were distracting me from school at the time. I was doing OK (not great) prior to my withdrawal (3.34 GPA), but returned to complete my BA and finished with a much stronger GPA (3.56) as a result of being able to take the time off in order to take care of those problems. Now here I am, an MS-2 in medical school.

When you write your personal statement for your primary application, you will of course need to explain the reason for your 19 W's and you will need to phrase it in such a way as to highlight a positive outcome - what you learned/gained/benefitted from the experience, how it made you stronger in the end, how it makes you more empathetic to those in similar circumstances, etc.

  • Karrah Said:
My ultimate goal is to be an anesthesiologist. Also, I will be over the age of 40 by the time I apply to medical school. Is this too old?



Considering I started medical school at age 42 - no.

  • Karrah Said:
Are schools that are MD or DO more accepting to older students?



The rumor is that DO schools are more accepting of older students. But based on numbers one of this site's administrators - gonnif - posted recently, only 5-6% of DO matriculants are > age 31 so the reality is that older students are greatly underrepresented in the nation's medical schools, particularly on the allopathic (MD) side if you are > age 40. However, US MD schools are not impossible to enter @ 40. I matriculated into a US allopathic school @ age 42. I don't know if there have ever been any others on this site that were over age 40 when they matriculated into a US allopathic school. Hopefully, if there are, they will chime in too.

  • Karrah Said:
If I end up completing a DO medical school, when I apply for anesthesiology residency, will I be at a disadvantage given that I just completed my training at a DO school than MD?



The short answer is yes. Anesthesiology is a competitive specialty and among the qualifications all residency programs scrutinize are scores on USMLE Step 1 (the part of the licensing exam MD's take that tests academic knowledge from the 1st 2 years of med school). Many anesthesiology (and other competitive) programs may not be as familiar with the scoring system for COMLEX Step 1 (the equivalent exam that DO's take).

However, graduating from an osteopathic med school is not necessarily a deal breaker either. This site's founder - OldManDave - graduated from an osteopathic med school (AT Still) and not only got into an anesthesiology residency, he got into one @ Dartmouth - an Ivy League School!
  • Karrah Said:
I really stink in math and some of the heavy math related sciences. I plan to get a tutor and take those classes at a community college instead.



Be careful with this strategy, Karrah! This could be a deal-breaker. There are many reasons people on this site take courses @ a CC instead of at a 4-yr university: financial reasons, no open enrollment @ the 4-yr, no 4-yr near their home, juggling school w/ an unyielding work schedule, etc. This is a very risky move for these people, no matter how valid or compelling their rationale. However, each of these reasons can all be reasonably explained in a personal statement and/or in an interview. Taking courses @ a CC just because the classes are "easier" is not as valid a reason to avoid taking them at a 4-yr. There would be no way to put a positive spin on this in a personal statement or interview.

  • Karrah Said:
Also, if I go part time (to help reduce my load) for the general ed, will I be at a disadvantage or would it be best to take my pre-reqs on a full time basis?



There's no formulaic answer for this question. The answer not only varies from school to school, but can also vary from year to year. Taking the classes full-time would look better, but at the same time, you also don't want to bite off more than you can chew. Getting the best possible grades is your #1 priority at whatever speed you're most comfortable with. If you are not working and have no family obligations, med school adcoms are going to expect you to be going to school full-time. To do less may be a deal-breaker.

Just to give you some idea of what's in store for you - the 1st 2 (pre-clinical) years of medical school are the equivalent of doing a bachelors degree in 2 years instead of 4 (104 credits in 2 years for my MD program versus 124 credits in 4 years for my BA program).

  • Karrah Said:
I don't have any kids, not married, but in a relationship. We don't plan to have any kids so my lifestyle is pretty boring. I am asian, so I'm not sure if I would be at an slight advantage in terms of entrance. Sorry for all the questions!



The "boring" lifestyle will prepare you well for med school. Being Asian, or any other ethnicity or race, plays no role in whether you have an advantage in the med school admissions process. You may be able to claim URM (Under-Represented Minority) status on your primary; thus, your application may get a closer look or a second look, but ultimately it shouldn't make a difference in admissions. Asians (esp. females) are actually overrepresented at the University of California med schools, but this probably has more to do w/ the demographics of the applicant pool than it does with a bias by the schools themselves.

  • Karrah Said:
I will be moving probably in 6 months to another state. I'm currently living in KS and not liking it one bit. I'm considering Michigan, Tennessee or Maine to complete my bachelors.

Karrah



Avoid Maine if you want to go to medical school. There is only 1 school to choose from if you want to stay in state - University of New England (DO).

Tennessee is a better choice with 5 schools:

1. East TN State University (MD)

2. Meharry (MD) - This is a historically African-American school so you may be at a disadvantage applying here.

3. Vanderbilt (MD) - This is a research-heavy school, so a strong science research background is a must. It also helps to have a high GPA/MCAT.

4. University of TN (MD)

5. Lincoln Memorial University, DeBusk (DO)

Michigan is also a good choice w/ 4 schools & 5 programs to choose from:

1. MI State University (MD [CHM] & DO [COM])

2. University of MI (MD) - Like Vanderbilt, this is a research-heavy school.

3. Oakland University, Beaumont (MD)

4. Wayne State (MD)

There are also 2 new MD schools scheduled to open w/i the next 2 years - Western MI University & Central MI University.

TicTacDoh -


I have also heard that some programs are less ready to review COMLEX vs USMLE scores. But, students at DO schools, although required to take COMLEX, can ALSO take USMLE. In fact, many of the students study with USMLE study materials. The students at my DO school who are on the military health care scholarship must take USMLE (although they also have to take COMLEX as a school/licensing requriement).


So, DO students who are concerned that the program/specialty they want to match into is less familiar with COMLEX will generally take both tests. Not a problem (just a pain).


Kate

Kate429,


You make an excellent point that I forgot to mention in my post. Having good USMLE scores (and clerkship grades) definitely levels the playing field in residency selection b/w MD & DO graduates.

  • TicDocDoh Said:
I don't know if there have ever been any others on this site that were over age 40 when they matriculated into a US allopathic school.



Of course, we've got folks over 40 who are either in or have completed MD programs!

JoBusch is starting in the caribbean this Fall and Dr.Mary finished from GWU. There is also a former member that's now a surgeon!

Thank you everyone for your responses! I wouldn’t attend a community college just because it’s easy; merely location and price. There are no good 4 year schools on the Kansas side. I am also going to be moving in 6mos-1year to another state. Not sure which. I seems like my plan is doable. I talked to a friend last night who suggested that I go the nurse route. I just don’t want to do that because I am definitely not a follower, I’m a leader. If I don’t get into a school in the US, I will try a school overseas. I am determined to fulfill my dreams no matter my disabilities, educational background or age.

I have already taken classes at a community college after I had left the 4 year school. Is this already a bad thing? Granted I only took some private music lessons, 1 english lit. psychology and developmental math

I happened to notice the other day that there are Osteopathic specific Anesthesiology programs. See this link:


http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/accreditat io…


From what I could tell, there aren’t alot of them (that would likely make it competitive) and they seem to be only located in about 6 states (CA, FL, MI, MO, OH, OK, PA).


You can also check out the American Osteopathic Colleges of Anesthesiologists (AOCA) http://www.aocaonline.org/#

  • Karrah Said:
I really stink in math and some of the heavy math related sciences. I plan to get a tutor and take those classes at a community college instead.

Karrah



Hi Karrah. Math is difficult, but not a deal breaker. However, you really should take at least your last math class at the university level.

When I began my university career I tested so badly I couldn't take any classes at the campus - they didn't offer anything that low. So I had to take 3 classes at the CC to "catch up" and then took pre-calc and calculus at the university level.

These days you have lots of resources to help you - websites you can use to brush up on things you're shaky on, on-campus tutors and a few online services for finding and hiring a paid tutor. The latter can be really helpful in clearing up problems you couldn't resolve with the prior resources.

Good luck!!!
  • pathdr2b Said:
...Dr.Mary finished from GWU. There is also a former member that's now a surgeon!



Ah yes. I forgot about Mary Renard (George Washington) & njbmd (Howard)!

  • pathdr2b Said:
JoBusch is starting in the caribbean this Fall



Yes, but Caribbean ≠US.

Karrah,


If you’re not picky about which state you move to, consider moving to TX. Texas has the best odds of its residents getting into their state’s medical schools.

  • Karrah Said:
I have already taken classes at a community college after I had left the 4 year school. Is this already a bad thing? Granted I only took some private music lessons, 1 english lit. psychology and developmental math



This shouldn't be a problem at all as long as you did well in those classes.
  • TicDocDoh Said:
Tennessee is a better choice with 5 schools:

1. East TN State University (MD)

2. Meharry (MD) - This is a historically African-American school so you may be at a disadvantage applying here.

3. Vanderbilt (MD) - This is a research-heavy school, so a strong science research background is a must. It also helps to have a high GPA/MCAT.

4. University of TN (MD)

5. Lincoln Memorial University, DeBusk (DO)



Just wanted to put my two cents in on the Tennessee schools... The state schools (1&4) are both solid programs. East TN State is much smaller and more geared towards rural medicine, whereas UT is a large state-wide program with campuses in Memphis (primary), Knoxville, and Chattanooga. This affords you quite the opportunity to get exposure to a multitude of hospital and community healthcare (level 1 trauma centers and even the fantastic St Jude's Hospital in Memphis).

Vandy speaks for itself--it's a top 15 school with some of the best NIH funding around. Almost 5,000 applicants last year for less than 300 spots. Whew!

Lincoln Memorial is the newest school, and I've heard it's a very, very good osteopathic program. It's up in the mountains in the middle of nowhere, so you should be able to focus on your studies.

Meharry: Unfortunately, many feel that something has gone wrong in the Meharry curriculum as of late. Meharry students hired by hospitals around here simply can't pass their board exams these days. Hospitals have actually begun passing on Meharry grads due to that risk. This is, of course, not the case with all Meharry grads--but now that the reputation has been tarnished, the school will have to work very hard to re-earn the trust of Tennessee hospital systems. With a job being a nice end to this long medical school journey (and since I want to stay and work here in Middle TN, where the bad rep exists for this school), I've been advised to pass on Meharry altogether. Stinks, because it's the only program here in town other than Vandy!

For the most part, you can't go wrong with Tennessee, though. Wonderful people, great climate (July and August are exceptions!), lots to do, great proximity to just about anywhere, and low cost of living.

Good luck, whatever you choose!
  • TicDocDoh Said:
Karrah,

If you're not picky about which state you move to, consider moving to TX. Texas has the best odds of its residents getting into their state's medical schools.



HA! Small world...that is exactly what I just did...as of a few days ago, LoL!!

The opportunities are fantastic and if you want to get experience in the medical community there is no place like Houston's Medical Center and schools-a-plenty.

Highly recommend for those who want some sort of quality of life while at the same time enjoy going to school. (my two cents...)

I’d vote for Texas as well!! Can’t go wrong with all the choices there!

  • TicDocDoh Said:


Ah yes. I forgot about Mary Renard (George Washington) & njbmd (Howard)!



OPM members have also attend/attended Ohio State, UMaryland, Indiana University, and Harvard med too!!!
  • pathdr2b Said:
  • TicDocDoh Said:


Ah yes. I forgot about Mary Renard (George Washington) & njbmd (Howard)!



OPM members have also attend/attended Ohio State, UMaryland, Indiana University, and Harvard med too!!!



Were any of them ≥ age 40 when they matriculated?
  • TicDocDoh Said:
  • Karrah Said:
Are schools that are MD or DO more accepting to older students?



The rumor is that DO schools are more accepting of older students. But based on numbers one of this site's administrators - gonnif - posted recently, only 5-6% of DO matriculants are > age 31 so the reality is that older students are greatly underrepresented in the nation's medical schools, particularly on the allopathic (MD) side if you are > age 40. However, US MD schools are not impossible to enter @ 40. I matriculated into a US allopathic school @ age 42. I don't know if there have ever been any others on this site that were over age 40 when they matriculated into a US allopathic school. Hopefully, if there are, they will chime in too.



Just to clarify, on an applicant to acceptee ratio, on a gross analysis of 2010 AMCAS and AACOMAS data, I found that students in the upper 5% of age range where accepted as students in the lower 95% of age range. That is about 5% of all applicants were over 31 and about 5% of all acceptees were over 31. there was no distinct ageism in the ratio of applicants to acceptees.

Link to applicant age data post

  • TicDocDoh Said:
  • Karrah Said:
If I end up completing a DO medical school, when I apply for anesthesiology residency, will I be at a disadvantage given that I just completed my training at a DO school than MD?



The short answer is yes. Anesthesiology is a competitive specialty and among the qualifications all residency programs scrutinize are scores on USMLE Step 1 (the part of the licensing exam MD's take that tests academic knowledge from the 1st 2 years of med school). Many anesthesiology (and other competitive) programs may not be as familiar with the scoring system for COMLEX Step 1 (the equivalent exam that DO's take).



I also looked at allopathic (MD/ACGME) anesthesiology residency ratio from either 2009 or 2010 (I'll look for the post). Again on a gross analysis for applicants to ANY type of residency program (you can apply to several in the same match cycle, 4.2% of MD grads went to a gas program and 3.8% of DO grads went to a gas program. If you count the additional osteopathic (DO/AOA) gas programs just about the same percentage of MD and DO went to gas residency.

Just to add to this, in the same year 1.1% of US citizens who went overseas got gas and 0.7% of non-US citizens who went overseas got gas