So I was able to talk to someone from the ADCOM at my fiancee’s school recently to review some options for getting from here to there- there being medical school. It was extremely helpful, but she really pushed me towards two words that I was hoping wouldn’t come up- osteopathic and caribbean.
I know we all need to avoid FUD, but I almost feel that pushing through FUD is an unwise decision if said FUD is very well warranted. I have a 2.72 overall undergrad GPA and a 2.59 in BCPM. I know that makes me a longshot candidate, but I feel like it HAS to be possible to demonstrate to an ADCOM that those numbers are squarely in my past, and a wholly inadequate representation of my ability to succeed in med school and as a physician. My graduate GPA is a 3.84, for the deity-of-your-choice’s sake.
I want to become an MD more than just about anything. Have for quite a while now. But I can’t shake the feeling that continuing to devote my time and taking on educational debt in pursuit of that dream has a very risky proposition with a low shot of paying dividends. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t expect to find a plan of “Do A/B/C and you’ll get in.” But I’ve kinda hoped to find a “Oh yea, people with your background certainly do get accepted. The grades are a concern, but they can be allayed by X/Y/Z. So you can definitely become a competitive candidate.” I’m still looking for that.
I know the usual stuff- get lots of clinical shadowing (check), volunteer work (check), kill the MCATs (in progress). But I can’t get rid of the dread that in all likelihood, that won’t be enough.
What do you all think? Should I shake off the FUD and persevere through it? Or am I better served by re-examining where my life is headed?
Thanks in advance.
First of all, calm down. Relax and take a deep breath. All of us who have baggage have heard this and will continue to hear this until we get in and succeed. I was there and I was told to not even apply but rather be a PA, which to me was unacceptable.
Now that you have done that. I have a couple of questions for you:
- What is your graduate degree going to be in?
- Do you understand what a DO is?
Once you answer those questions, then I can give you better advice.
Why is doing into DO a bad word in your mind?
Most of what I am reading about DO is actually making me want DO more. I have come to the realization that if I get into the 2 allopaths in my state, YAY, if I get into osteopath, YAY.
- BaileyPup Said:
Most of what I am reading about DO is actually making me want DO more. I have come to the realization that if I get into the 2 allopaths in my state, YAY, if I get into osteopath, YAY.
I'm going to have to cosign with this post. My question is does the OP want to be an "MD" or a Physician?
Me, I'm taking it ANY way I can get it given my shaky undergrad grades.
One of the reasons I think that OPM is such a special place is because most of the people here have had successful careers someplace else, many own homes, some have children. Yet, most here have faced FUD to a greater degree than many traditional students because of the added responsibilities in their lives, but CHOOSE to keep going down this road.
In life, there are precious few guarantees. But, if you don’t try, you’re guaranteed to fail.
You can’t erase your past, but you’re doing exceptionally well now it seems! Throw caution to the wind and stay the course, decide how bad you want it!
Dan
To be honest, when my advisor suggested DO I thought “OMFG, I AM NOT GOING CARIBBEAN!” Then I read about it on SDN, and was still depressed. (Ahh, the debate rages on there, every day)
And then I shadowed a DO… and realized two of my former doctors had also been DOs. Since I don’t want to do a highly competitive or lifestyle option, going DO is good for me. I’m going to apply to 2 or 3 MD schools, but DO is my path, and I’m happy about it.
End of the day? MD or DO, I don’t care, I want to be a doctor.
Hi all, the advice is well appreciated. Sorry it’s taken me so long to get back, but I’m hitting midterms right now (Jefferson has a strange calendar) and got to crunch time after coming here and unloading. Anyhoo, to answer some questions:
The MS I’m working on is in Biomedical Sciences. Traditional academic degree. I’m career-changing and was in a situation that I really had to start working on a degree somewhere, so I applied anywhere and everywhere. TJU was where I ended up getting in.
I have a based understanding philosophy underlying osteopathy. My big concern with being a DO as opposed to an MD is that I’ve always understood DOs have less options for internships and residencies and specialize less often. My issue with this is that I distinctly do not want to be a family doc or PCP. What I really want to do is work somewhere in women’s health or reproductive medicine (Ob/Gyn, Fetal Medicine, etc). I know that DOs can specialize, but I’ve always understood it to be more difficult. Do trust me that it’s not an issue of which letters I’ll have on my door. But if it’s going to be an uphill battle to be able to specialize, part of me would want to start looking into DPT/OPT programs as an alternative.
At the same time, to a degree, getting into an MD program has been my life’s strategic goal for about 2 years now. Regardless of what options are available or how good they might be, I find it difficult to let go.
- Fedaykin Said:
The MS I'm working on is in Biomedical Sciences. Traditional academic degree. I'm career-changing and was in a situation that I really had to start working on a degree somewhere, so I applied anywhere and everywhere. TJU was where I ended up getting in.
I have a based understanding philosophy underlying osteopathy. My big concern with being a DO as opposed to an MD is that I've always understood DOs have less options for internships and residencies and specialize less often. My issue with this is that I distinctly do not want to be a family doc or PCP. What I really want to do is work somewhere in women's health or reproductive medicine (Ob/Gyn, Fetal Medicine, etc). I know that DOs can specialize, but I've always understood it to be more difficult. Do trust me that it's not an issue of which letters I'll have on my door. But if it's going to be an uphill battle to be able to specialize, part of me would want to start looking into DPT/OPT programs as an alternative.
At the same time, to a degree, getting into an MD program has been my life's strategic goal for about 2 years now. Regardless of what options are available or how good they might be, I find it difficult to let go.
I can understand and relate to your point and feeling's fully. For all the work I do on OPM, and interaction I have with the Osteopathic schools, with AACOM and now AOA (for both groups I seem to have become the unofficial poster SDN as their organizations do not permit them to do it directly), for all the reasons and rationales I give to people and all my own understanding and logic on how a DO is a by all regards a full physician, I still have a visceral reaction desire to have MD after my name. It has nothing to do with DO's at all. It is just that instinct drilled into me for years that has it. Mind you that I did my post-bacc on the same campus where the NYCOM students reside, I can call about 1/2 the DO schools in the country and the admissions staff know who I am from my work with OPM.
Ok, I got that off my chest. It wouldn't keep from going to DO school just emotional component to it that is there within me.
Back to rational world. the Myth that DO have limited specialties is just that: a myth. I did a brief analysis on this on the 2009 data for the match, where posters on SDN swore up and down that Anesthesiology was so much harder to get into for DO. I found ratios of 42 MD grads to 39 DO grads were matched to allopathic (ACGME) programs. Assuming that other DO grads went to osteopathic (AOA) anesthesiology residencies, it is dead even. BTW, MD IMG (US citizens) has a ratio of 11 matched and MD FMG (non citizens) were 0.7 matched.
Surveys of residency directors factors for selection choice in match had school type as the 15th of 20 factors. Board score, LOR, audience rotation ranked much higher. Is it difficult to get into competitive residencies? yes. But all the data exists to show you exactly how DO's do in match. I'm guessing for matching it has more to do with a slight bias in favor of USMLE over COMLEX exam. You can take both but that is another exam fee, prep, etc, and some students express the basic science on USMLE is more difficult on USLME than COMLEX. But that seems to be school more specific and their style of teaching etc.
Knowing how to network and make yourself a better candidate for a match is much more important that school type. And I would speculate that the culture or emphasis at DO schools puts a lot on DO residencies, thus limits students views, opportunities, etc for these opportunities.
So to sum up this rambling post, I would think that the informal and important items that assist with match just have to be more actively sought out in a DO school than an MD.
If OldManDave is at the conference ask him on this point. He'll have some good insights
I concur with Gonnif. I never really considered DO because at the time I was doing the med school application thing, I had no knowledge of what DO schools were. My only experience with any DO was the local town osteopath (where I grew up) who was considered a quack by a large portion of the population.
That being said, many of my fellow residents (EM residency) are DOs and half of next year’s class are DOs. We are a dual accredited residency. I have worked with many attendings this year who have “DO” after their name and I have never found the letters to be a deciding issue on competence.
I really don’t think going to a DO school vs a MD school will limit your options in terms of specializing in the vast majority of cases. You MAY find yourself at a competitive disadvantage if you go to one of the newer DO schools vs one of the more well established ones. The one area where you might find yourself limited is if you think you want to be an attending at an academic center that is affiliated with an allopathic school. There are very few DO faculty to be found on staff at most allopathic schools (although there are some).
As gonnif said, some people think that DOs actually have MORE options because they can apply for all of the allo residencies as well as the osteopathic residencies. MD grads are not allowed to apply for osteopathic residencies (which is a whole different debate).
In the end, I would say if you’re more comfortable with MD, then work towards that goal. Don’t limit yourself, though. There are many high-quality osteopathic schools out there. And, as Gonnif has pointed out in many posts, you have more specialty opportunities as a DO grad than a MD from a non-US school.
I also work in a dual-accredited residency program associated with an allopathic school, and currently 7 of our 26 FM residents are DOs. Additionally, there are a number of DO residents and fellows training in medicine and surgical specialties throughout the institution. Regardless of specialty, I think you would be hard-pressed to tell the difference between a DO or MD in most of our programs.
While it is true that DOs had more difficulty matching in specialties in the past, as Gonnif pointed out that gap is quickly closing thanks to the looming physician shortage in all specialties, not just primary care. I know a few DO OBs (which by the way IS considered a primary care specialty in many states). If you intend to pursue a fellowship beyond residency, such as maternal fetal medicine, where you trained and how well you did will hold more weight than where you went to medical school.
I agree with Emergency…go for what you want, but don’t limit yourself over a concern that might not be relevant anymore.
My class has had a very impressive match list for a DO school. We matched 3 into Anesthesiology, 1 into Orthopedic Surgery, 1 into Urology, 4 into Radiology, and they are mainly MD residencies that this happened in.
While there are limited number of DO residencies, if you do really well on the USMLE, then you would not have any problems matching anywhere. Just because you are a DO, it does not mean that you are going into primary care. While I am going into internal medicine, I plan on specializing in Pulmonary/Critical Care.
Since you want to go into ob/gyn, I can tell you that my school just opened up a second residency program with an increased number of ob/gyn spots.
You are not limiting yourself. If you are in Philadelphia, I can certainly make time to take you through my soon to be alma mater.
Don’t think that just because you are a DO, you have to go into primary care (which Ob/Gyn is considered to be), but you have an added tool in your tool belt to help people when they need it. Trust me, you are just as prepared to be a doctor as a DO as you would an MD.
I think the DO thing is largely mental. Maybe being older, I just sort of associate with having an MD after my name, not DO. That, and the fact that almost every time I have mentioned DO or osteopath to someone, I have to explain what it is. I can definitely see an ongoing annoyance with having to do that during your career.
The mental thing I’m not proud of though. The last two doctors I went to see, including one I sought out were DOs. I specifically was looking for someone that practiced manipulative medicine, which is actually pretty hard to find.
- jimi44 Said:
The mental thing I'm not proud of though. The last two doctors I went to see, including one I sought out were DOs. I specifically was looking for someone that practiced manipulative medicine, which is actually pretty hard to find.
Why bother explaining it? Just tell people you're a doctor. The DO would only come up if someone specifically asked after that.
Thanks for the advice and reassurance, everyone. Mucho helpful.
I’m going to seriously start looking into DO- thanks in no small part to the reassurance from everyone here. Gabe, thanks for the offer. How long will you be at UMDNJ, and which campus is it? I’m familiar with the Piscataway campus- I live nearby and my fiancee’s SMP program is there. I also filled out PCOM’s send-me-information page.
If I can ask, would you guys mind helping me sort through the scuttlebutt that I’ve always heard about applying to DO programs? Among things I’ve heard:
- Being much more recent, my graduate credentials will be heavily favored as representative of the student I am now.
- Whole picture is extremely important in addition to grades (to an extent beyond that for MD ADCOMs).
I found this table some time ago (probably linked on this site, but I can't recall) with admittance rates for applicants to all US MD programs sorted by GPA and MCAT. Does anyone know if similar information exists for DO schools? I've looked around and found the Osteopathic Medical College Information Book, but didn't quite find that information (although I did see that the average applicant to DO programs has an MCAT score of 26, which I'm comfortable doing as well as or better than). Also, I did see that each year, they accept about 5,000 applicants from 10,000 applications. Does anyone know how many people apply in all?
I'll be at the convention, and I'm definitely looking forward to meeting up with some of you guys. Thanks for all the help!
Oooh, now that I know you’ll be at the con one more bit of advice - talk to the DO school reps. The DO decision really clicked for me when I got that chance at a pre-med fair.
I’m going to a school whose rep. I talked with at the OPM conference in DC 2 years ago. He invited me out to visit the campus (which I did), and to come back for their formal open house (which I did).
So I agree!
Kate
Hi! I think I can answer in some way your first 2 questions. Regarding the graduate school courses, the difference in the way that AMCAS and AACOMAS handles those credits is that AMCAS reports a graduate school GPA, but does not include graduate school courses in calculating your BCMP gpa. AACOMAS includes graduate courses in calculating your BCMP, if they were in the relevant subjects. That helped me out some!
Regarding looking at more than GPA and MCAT…it differs from school to school. I’d say that at some of the MD schools where I interviewed, they were looking at character traits also, but that at all the DO schools where I interviewed, I got the impression that service ethic and character/personality were something they were specifically looking for. I’ve heard one of the professors on the admission committee say that he feels it is important to pick people who will represent the osteopathic medical profession well, so that the one sure way to 'fail" the interview is to be a jerk. Of course, none of us go into interviews trying to do this!
Kate
I am in South Jersey at the Stratford Campus, which is the DO school. I have some time between the conference and June 22, which is when I start Orientation.