Bill,
Another thing to consider is what you want to do after med school. The rankings (which are IMO inane, by the way) are broken down into research and primary care. While schools like Harvard and JH, WU-SL are renowned for being the “best” research schools, the top primary care schools are mostly state schools (Washington, Colorado, Oregon.) So, it really depends on what you want to do with your MD. If you want to actually treat patients, then the “best” school will be well within reach for you.
Also, the main reason your post rubbed soooo many people the wrong way is simple: All of us just want to get into A medical school. I don’t care if it’s Ohio, North Dakota, Alabama, Oklahoma. I would be happy with any MD school. I didn’t decide to pursue medicine because I want to prove to myself that I can get into a good school. I did it because I want to do something that matters. Just food for thought…
All joking aside, I guess I really don’t know why in the hell you would go for medicine if the prestige of the med school actually matters to you. Because it is frankly just too damn hard for that particularly perk to be worth much. You work your ass off to get IN, your work your ass off through med school and residency, and then you work your ass off for ever-decreasing reimbursements once you get out.
If prestige is really important to you - and I am not knocking it, I figure whatever floats your boat - then I am just sayin’, medicine strikes me as a lousy path, not rewarding at all, far too much work. I really am not kidding about this. You really have to want to do this, not just for the name on the degree, but because you want to practice medicine. I haven’t heard anything in your posts that indicates that you want to practice medicine. (what’s up with that?)
“I want to be a doctor” is easier to explain than, “I want to be a Harvard doctor.” Good luck sorting it out!
Mary
You’re right, Bill. You didn’t make the rules. However, I’m not sure you understand what the ‘rules’ are.
First, the rules revolve around the patient, not you. You’ve erroneously correlated a physician’s alma mater to their ability to heal patients. Literally millions of patients nationwide are assessed, diagnosed, and treated by physicians who did not attend a “top ten school.†Shocking, isn’t it?
Second, your assumption about students in medical schools ranking outside the top ten is terribly inaccurate. You assume that they put prestige aside because of some folksy/Midwestern code to “be true to one’s self.†Please tell me that a PhD candidate at MIT wouldn’t actually believe such an uninformed conclusion.
Assuming that you actually want to take OPM forum members’ advice to heart, then you should be a lot more worried about other things. Things like financing yet another degree, getting volunteer hours, shadowing, and surviving the MCAT ought to be much larger blips on the radar than how much prestige you’ll garner in the end. But that might be a hasty assumption on my part. My second thought is that you’ll dismiss the majority of our advice and hold steadfast to your belief that prestige is paramount. So here’s an alternative suggestion; make a few t-shirts for yourself to advertise the sentiments you’ve shared here. Actually, you might prefer to have the statements embroidered on handkerchiefs or shirt cuffs that would compliment your Armani. Either way, don’t be shy about proclaiming “the rules†you’re committed to…
“I either get into a top ten school or Bill’s not going to be a doctor.â€
“There’s no way I’m going to … some nameless medical school.â€
“Frankly, being associated with a prestigious institution always makes things just a little bit easier.â€
Make sure to wear your custom attire to your volunteer medical sites, shadowing shifts, and definitely your admissions committee interviews. You’ll be big hit.
Thanks for mentioning State Schools. Yes, University of Washington in Seattle is Number 1 in family practice. No prestige going to UW, is there? Yet, it ranks above Harvard and other known schools. This is what it’s about. Not going to a known name, but going to a school that has it together. Like I said, UW is not on any of your lists of schools to attend when you are talking about top 10’s. It just makes me all confused why you all wouldn’t be more flexible if this is your dream? I have moved for less rewarding jobs. The move was worth it and part of my adventure. I will move for school, I will move for my job and my family will come along. Home is where ever I am. Not in a destination.
Well…I guess I went off on that one!
Oh, I also wanted to say you all are not seeing 40 year olds at medical schools because they aren’t crazy enough to do that. You 40 year-olds are amazing! Just don’t get discouraged, you are the exception not the rule. That makes you all the more interesting and amazing people.
Nothing wrong with having aspirations to attend a top program but if you’re going into this thinking ‘Top 10 or nothing’ you might be setting yourself up for disappointment. If your dream is to become a doctor, then you go where you are accepted. In this type of competitive environment, stating that you refuse to attend a program that isn’t a ‘Top 10’ is kind of like saying ‘I refused to go on a date with Ms. March because I have my eyes set on the Playmate of the Year’. (If you are a woman reading this, please replace my Playboy analogies with George Clooney and Brad Pitt respectively.)
Physicians come in lots of different “flavors,” each of them choosing to serve the patient in different ways. Two of those varied ways include as a physician-scientist who does primarily bench research and as a clinical researcher who focuses his/her practice on clinical research. Each of these physicians is serving patients, but not in the traditional way of shaving daily clinic. These are the types of careers that there are increased opportunities for at the commonly known “top schools.”
If your goal is primary care, then the list of “top schools” will change.
Wow, take it easy folks, especially ditchdoc.
I obviously hit a nerve (or two) by bringing up prestige and saying that it matters. I don’t want to cause anyone any needless offense over what’s clearly a sensitive topic for many.
I will say, however, that some have imputed wild beliefs to me (that I never expressed or maybe expressed in what was obviously a joke) and have made all sorts of stereotypical assumptions. I’d be careful about jumping to conclusions so quickly. Go back and read what I said. Sorry to say, it’s pretty mild (other than the joke) and deliberately non-committal. I don’t know what I think about this stuff yet.
(I was born and raised in Tennessee, by the way. And Armani? What?!?)
That said, I hate to say this, but there are certainly med schools that I just can’t see myself attending. Maybe if I was 22, I’d go anywhere, but my wife and I have a really great life as it is. I’d have to take a pretty big paycut becoming a physician even after residency (hope that wasn’t too “snobby”). But my line of work is just not fulfilling at all. Sacrificing what we have would be ludicrous enough even if I went to a great nearby school like UCSF. She’d have me committed, maybe rightfully so, if I asked her to move almost anywhere else in the country. She’d say there has to be an easier way to have a fulfilling career, and she’d probably be right!
Clearly, I have not sorted out what I want to do here. Just thinking, gathering datapoints. The likelihood of getting into a school near which my wife and I might actually want to live is one question (among many). That correlates pretty well (though not perfectly) with typical prestige rankings.
Bill
wnelson, I think ditchdoc are trying to get you thinking. Many people are so passionate about the career that they would take any school so they can bring their love of people and care into the medical world. It’s a hard pill to swallow that someone wants a top school acceptance and doesn’t claim to love, love, love the profession or talks about money. You are right, that upper middle class income might sound huge, but, it will be taxed down to nothing. Oh, and don’t forget about the 80+ hour work week. 
Maybe you are currently doing that?
The thing is there are ways of becoming fulfilled without a job change. Many people with as much money as you have start really meaningful charities. They support the doctors in Doctors without Borders. They set up trips to places to perform plastic surgery on children with cleft mouths. We need that. But, please dont take a spot in Medical School if you aren’t certain this is your dream. How do you know? You must start jobshadowing and volunteering. You need to do that anyway. It sounds like you are exploring this option. Let us help you consider what you/we are up against.
Bill,
I would agree that you hit a nerve. I’d actually suggest that you did a Mexican hat dance on it, but that’s not the point. My rant was fueled by years of encountering issues like this in a variety of healthcare settings. If I’m guilty of projecting my past upon you and making rash judgments, then I apologize.
All of us here are weighing (or have weighed) the same pro’s and con’s you are contemplating. We had great salaries, successful careers, and all the other trappings of seemingly happy lives. Though you are a unique person with specific achievements, your situation is not unique. Assembling the resumes of the members in this forum would yield a stunning array of experience and accomplishment. Yet, that’s not what we’re here to discuss. If everyone here has such amazing stories (and we do), then prestige is a moot point to us.
We are more than willing to help you along. You have some difficult decisions to make about how to spend the rest of your life, and unfortunately you’re already a statistical outlier on the ‘acceptance rate vs age’ chart. So the clock is ticking. You clearly have demonstrated the academic acumen necessary to succeed in medical school, but that’s only one piece of the puzzle. The rest of the puzzle is just as difficult, with pieces remaining which have nothing to do with where you attended school or in what city you feel comfortable. Best of luck in your decision process.
Mary, Ditchdoc, et al:
<3. You have eloquently put into words what I could not.
For sake of the patients, I hope Mr. Bill either gets his head in the appropriate vector, or decides that making money is far more pleasurable for his wife and him, to stay out medicine.
Cheers!
hey guys. . .thanks for backing me up. Yesterday, I thought, man, am I the only one who was irritated by this? I’m glad it wasn’t the case.
Ali,
I read the entire thing to my 17 year old son last night - he howled at the OP and summarily, rolled his eyes.
FWIW, Mr. Bill is a perfect fit for places like Deloitte, PwC, McKinsey, or Booz not so much for medicine and people who smell, puke, shat a myriad of colors and may not even speak English, or worse, not afford healthcare.
As Jennifer Anniston said about Mr. Pitt, “I think the sensitivity chip is missing.”
Just my $.02.
Good - I’m glad your 17 y.o. has a good dose of common sense!
My son has been to 5 continents, pet killer whales, seen shuttle launches, snorkeled with sting rays, watched plays on Broadway, toured very famous art museums, attended rock concerts (and country) as well as opera and symphonic, and more.
He has also slopped food on the plates of the homeless, put shutters and gutters on the roofs of the poorest in our home state, volunteered at inner city schools where the kids do not speak English very well nor regularly bathe, visited with AIDS patients in small hospital retreats, and so forth. He routinely volunteers to help every 4th Saturday at the local food drive to hand out food to those in need, and worked with me to raise 36 - 3’x3’ cases of shoes and beanie babies for the cleft palate surgery kids in Peru and Mexico.
I’m blessed to have him for a son!
I am not sure how old Joe was, I was 38 and yes, I am URM but what got my foot in the door and the scholarships was not my URM status, because the scholarship were for ACADEMIC.
I see nothing wrong with setting your sights on a top school, but just be cognizant that ANY school will do.
Thanks to all those who wrote measured responses. In particular, thanks efex101 for mentioning your story. It’s definitely inspiring.
As for all the personal attacks – I don’t want to pretend to know anyone’s thoughts, emotions, or circumstances, but it’s easy to see how my asking about top ranked schools in my circumstances could upset some people on the site. (I think this was basically Kimerberly_h’s point.) One of the purposes of the group is mutual support and even bringing up this type of topic could be upsetting or even demoralizing for many. I am closer to the “bottom line”, “just the facts please” end of the spectrum and approached the group just looking for some facts. If the way I did so upset folks (and it seems to have), I apologize.
At the moment, I am certainly far from passionate about becoming a doctor. I’m just exploring – as quickly as I can. It is in many ways an obviously really good choice and I commend all of you for having the guts to take the plunge. I’ve thought about it a lot and can’t think of any other profession with the same combination of intellectual challenge, benefits for other people, and predictability/stability.
But in my circumstances, a career change at this point is ludicrous in so many ways. I won’t go into the details here, but the following should give you an idea: (1) I’ve basically done this major career change thing before, leaving one very successful career in technology venture finance to do something completely different. A pattern is emerging: professional student, masochist, never satisfied, basketcase. While I don’t believe that about myself yet, it’s becoming more and more plausible! And many will quickly draw that conclusion and hammer me with it for years to come. Maybe some readers will be happy that such a terrible person as I has such a problem, but it’s still a big problem and if so, nice knowin’ ya, have a nice life. (2) My family’s and my life is in most ways great right now. Just muddling through more or less hating my job/career is actually a pretty good option, certainly one that most would choose. (Most people would find a way to make peace with what they have.)
I admit, I asked about top ranked schools partly to see if I could easily visualize a path to med school in which the “What in the hell are you thinking?” factor is minimized. A great, local school would help. Sorry, it would. I don’t think that gives great insight into my character, it just seems a lot easier to drive up the road to UCSF than to move to Wyoming. But even then it’s very tough for me to see med school happening. Obviously, yes, yes, I hear you, there are other factors more important than which school I go to, like whether I want to be a doctor. (Duh) Those are tougher, more personal, questions to ask and I can’t really ask them here on this list, can I? I can really ask questions which you might be able to answer, like whether anyone 40ish has ever gone to a top-ranked school.
Anyway, good luck…
Bill
- wnelson Said:
I personally think there's been enough misunderstanding/miscommu nicating, touchy feelings, ect, ect, in this thread to go around.
I don't think anyone goes into anything thinking "I'm gonna shoot for the bottom of the totem pole" OTOH, people who aspire to become Physicians don't usualy imply that only a top school will do either. I also don't think anyone is saying you can't shoot for a top school in your 40's (which I still feel is far, far different from being in your 30s) simply that almost none of them has anyone 40 or older in their entering class.
I'm in Hopkins territory but knowing the "age" history (and quite frankly my MCAT score, LOL) I realize applying there would be somewhat moot. But that doesn't mean I wont give it a try, AFTER I retake the MCAT.
Bill,
When opining your ideology related to top-ten schools when the vast majority of us are just trying to get into med school, it comes across as snobbish, boorish, and just plain pretentious not to mention insulting.
You cannot do all of the above and think the vast majority are not going to give you their opine back. Like it or not, we did.
As for your top-ten school only, really? Stanford is 12th, Mayo 16th. For your perspective, and my amusement, I found a ranking for top 100.
1 Harvard University
2 Johns Hopkins University
3 Washington University
4 University of Pennsylvania
5 University of California - S.F.
6 Columbia University
7 Duke University
8 University of Michigan
9 Yale University
10 Cornell University
11 University of Washington
12 Stanford University
13 Baylor College
14 UCLA
15 Vanderbilt University
16 Mayo Medical College
17 University of Pittsburgh
18 University of Texas - Dallas
19 University of Chicago
20 Emory University
21 University of California - San Diego
22 Case Western Reserve
22 Northwestern University
24 University of North Carolina
24 Mount Sinai
26 University of Virginia
27 NYU
28 University of Rochester
29 University of Iowa
30 University of Alabama
31 Albert Einstein – Yeshiva Univ.
32 University of Wisconsin
33 University of Colorado
34 Dartmouth Medical School
35 USC
36 Oregon Health & Science
37 University of Minnesota
38 University of Utah
39 Boston University
40 Brown University
- wnelson Said:
But in my circumstances, a career change at this point is ludicrous in so many ways. I won't go into the details here, but the following should give you an idea: (1) I've basically done this major career change thing before, leaving one very successful career in technology venture finance to do something completely different. A pattern is emerging: professional student, masochist, never satisfied, basketcase. While I don't believe that about myself yet, it's becoming more and more plausible! And many will quickly draw that conclusion and hammer me with it for years to come. Maybe some readers will be happy that such a terrible person as I has such a problem, but it's still a big problem and if so, nice knowin' ya, have a nice life. (2) My family's and my life is in most ways great right now. Just muddling through more or less hating my job/career is actually a pretty good option, certainly one that most would choose. (Most people would find a way to make peace with what they have.)
Bill - I just wanted to be clear that I don't think you're a terrible person. I just had an issue with the dichotomy of being the "professional student. . .basket case" and wanting a spot in the top program. Those spots are extremely valuable, and how does a guy with a PhD in another field prove that he *really means it this time* and is not going to drop this field after years of expensive training? My premed advisor said that the biggest difficulty I will have to overcome is convincing the adcom that after 10 years as an engineer that I am seriously interested in and committed to medicine.. .once you get to the PhD level, I think that case gets even more difficult to make. Would Harvard say, hey, this guy already wasted MIT's time, do we want him to do the same to us?