So is it possible to get admitted to a top school in your 40's? Sure with a great MCAT score (30+) and other things in the app being together, ANYTHING is possible. Is it likely? Not in my opinion, but it used to be unlikely that a woman could have a baby in their 40's too. Bottom line, give it your best and go for it! And don't underestimate the power of networking long BEFORE you submit your application!
I had to comment on this. I've been working in a NICU since last year, and I have to say that the percentage of older moms (we even had a 48 y/o who had twins - and a younger husband, God Bless her!) coming through the L&D department is pretty significant. I don't have a specific figure, but I would venture that of the 3000+ deliveries that we have about 20% are over 35.
Just so that I'm clear, you do understand that the point I was making was the very point you just made, right?
Now if we could just get medical school admissions to follow trends in Ob/Gyn that would be great!
The quality of applicants may go down as age goes up as well.
Mike
I don't know, but somehow this really irks me. I would really think the opposite. Now, I know that not all nontrads who are applying for med school are going to be great prospects for med school...but there are so many more "traditional students applying" that aren't either. I really think that this is subjective about quality.
Unfortunately from what I've observed, most med schools especially "top" programs, view quality by "numbers" first followed by finding a cure for AIDS, or something equally spectacular.
I also think that nontrads are generally smarter than than trads all around and in other less tangible but equally important areas necessary for becoming a good Physician.
So is it possible to get admitted to a top school in your 40's? Sure with a great MCAT score (30+) and other things in the app being together, ANYTHING is possible. Is it likely? Not in my opinion, but it used to be unlikely that a woman could have a baby in their 40's too. Bottom line, give it your best and go for it! And don't underestimate the power of networking long BEFORE you submit your application!
I had to comment on this. I've been working in a NICU since last year, and I have to say that the percentage of older moms (we even had a 48 y/o who had twins - and a younger husband, God Bless her!) coming through the L&D department is pretty significant. I don't have a specific figure, but I would venture that of the 3000+ deliveries that we have about 20% are over 35.
Just so that I'm clear, you do understand that the point I was making was the very point you just made, right?
Now if we could just get medical school admissions to follow trends in Ob/Gyn that would be great!
Yeah, after I read it again, I saw that...although I think I have a better chance of getting into medical school than I do of having a baby (not that I would want one).
The quality of applicants may go down as age goes up as well.
Mike
I don't know, but somehow this really irks me. I would really think the opposite. Now, I know that not all nontrads who are applying for med school are going to be great prospects for med school...but there are so many more "traditional students applying" that aren't either. I really think that this is subjective about quality.
Wow, did I really have that bolded, italicized, and underlined?
I wasn't saying with certainty that quality does go down as the applicants get older, just sort of pondering that it may be the case. I am sure that there are more poorly qualified traditional applicants than non-trads, but there are more traditional applicants overall as well. One really needs to look at percentages, I think.
And quality is certainly subjective. However, there have to be some metrics that med schools can use to determine who is accepted and who is not. Screening based on GPA and MCAT is objective as far as those two qualities go. They won't get you into med school, but they can certainly keep you out. Things like life experiences that non-trads have aren't exactly as tangible and are harder to make a determination on. My use of the word quality is really referring to how the applicant looks on paper, when the school is initially looking at the application. Some of the things that should make up for low scores otherwise may not be as readily apparent and easy to weigh as we would like.
As far as my comment about someone without the black marks on their record that should be chosen above someone without, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't other considerations that should go into it. I mean that all else on the application being equal, they are simply a stronger applicant.
All things considered, even IF the quality of applicants, based on GPA and MCAT score correlated inversely with age, that doesn’t necessarily mean the quality of graduating physicians follows the same trend.
No, the bold, underline and italics were mine. I would venture that a larger percentage of nontrads will try to make themselves more attractive the medical schools. Yeah, they may have more of a history, and possibly have to work on clearing some educational faux pas, but there is a quality that they can bring that many trads can’t…life experience, and some medical schools are looking for just that. Also, just something to keep in mind, with an aging population, I think (and this is my opinion) that many patients may find themselve more comfortable talking with a nontrad than a trad…more in common, and it usually is the med student/resident that spends more time with patients and may have a better chance of connecting with the patient to get more information. Again, this is my opinion.
Also, when it is time for me to apply, my goal would be to apply to those schools that are more nontrad friendly.
Once again, I am not saying I don't believe you, I just need to see the stats myself in order to form my own opinion.
It's OK that you didn't believe me because apparently you were in good company with that.
I'll just limit my future posts to things for which I have stats on, which means I won't be posting much in the future, LOL!!!
Certainly, you HAD to have seen that I posted TWICE that it had nothing to do with not believing you right?!? LOL
I was/am interested in seeing those stats and Ditchdoc provided them. Thanks Ditchdoc!
And, you are certainly welcome to post your own opinion and experiences but don't be offended if someone asks for a link or proof when you state something as fact. I would ask the same for anyone on this board. It is no different than me telling the administration here at OPM that we had 1,000,000 hits last month. They may believe it, may not believe it, either way, if I state it as fact I had better be able to back it up.
Finally, as I have helped push this topic off its course, I'm also going to request that any future discussion about the age stats be in another topic and that this one get back focused on the original post.
Bill - I just wanted to be clear that I don't think you're a terrible person. I just had an issue with the dichotomy of being the "professional student. . .basket case" and wanting a spot in the top program. Those spots are extremely valuable, and how does a guy with a PhD in another field prove that he *really means it this time* and is not going to drop this field after years of expensive training? My premed advisor said that the biggest difficulty I will have to overcome is convincing the adcom that after 10 years as an engineer that I am seriously interested in and committed to medicine.. .once you get to the PhD level, I think that case gets even more difficult to make. Would Harvard say, hey, this guy already wasted MIT's time, do we want him to do the same to us?
AliJ,
There are a range of interpretations one can make for a person with a non-medical PhD moving to an MD program. You paint one extreme interpretation -- "this guy already wasted MIT's time". It's actually not that hard to see how a PhD in economics could mesh with an MD. I know one Harvard MD who went on to get a PhD in economics and is now a professor. But things haven't been easy for him with that background. It's not the best combination, but we all are just doing the best we can. And others "waste" their degrees by doing things only indirectly related to their education. There are MDs at investment banks pulling down millions as pharm/biotech industry analysts, for example. I know another Harvard MD who became a venture capitalist. He's using a tiny fraction of the knowledge he learned in med school. A waste? Hard to say.
Will I be able to convince an adcom I "really mean it" this time? Well, yeah, I hear you. I haven't decided yet myself whether this would be the right thing to do. The abruptness and magnitude of my transition would clearly be the weak point of my application. I don't think you need to take issue with this -- adcoms will surely do this for you.
Your transition from engineering to MD is not too different from my own, though you're a lot younger, it seems. If there is a "demonstrated committment" issue with your application and it's really a showstopper, my advice would be to consider taking one more year before you apply to build up a really strong record of volunteering and premed studies. That may be a big sacrifice, but they may be looking for signs of willingness to sacrifice.
Finally, as I have helped push this topic off its course, I'm also going to request that any future discussion about the age stats be in another topic and that this one get back focused on the original post.
Yes, I completely agree this thread is way off topic. Lately, there has been far too much interesting factual information posted in this thread and not very many insults directed toward me. How did we ever get so far off course?
LOL Bill. Although it wasn’t my intention, it was my assertion that your original question couldn’t be answered that put us off course.
So it occurs to me that I do have an anecdotal answer for you. I know a woman who matriculated at Johns Hopkins at the age of 41, back in the 1990s. She did not graduate from there; she transferred for personal reasons related to her family. She did graduate from medical school in four years and has a successful practice. She is not a URM. She had a master’s degree. I assume she had a ridiculous MCAT but I’ve actually never asked her. (I am sort of randomly providing factoids, in no particular order, to “flesh out” this apparently rare creature, a 40+ non-trad at a top university.)
Anyway, it’s anecdotal evidence, which to a scientist isn’t terribly meaningful, is it? I would say, if you continue to toy with the notion of an M.D. from a top school, then you should presume that you’ll be in a rare group and you will want to be determined to break the mold.
But limited expereiences or not, when an an adcom or other med school rep tells you that no one in their 40s has matriculated, I tend to take that as fact and I've heard that from Harvard, Hopkins, Duke, and Baylor. Again, simply my experiences that I'm relaying to others.
Obviously Hopkins doesn't claim 40 year olds who start but never finish, LOL!!!
But other facts about "outliers" would be useful. What did her parents do? What about her husband? Did some other relative work at Hopkins?
When I think of outliers, I'm immediately reminded of the med at the University of Florida who matriculated with out an MCAT score, which was required, a few years back. The right political connections was how he pulled that off.
OMGROFLMAO! I go away for a week to meet a scholarship deadline and I miss all the fun!!! Hi Bill, welcome to OPM.org!
I have to be quite honest and say that some folks get their exercize around here jumping to conclusions, which you handled quite well.
Personally I found nothing wrong with your questions, but you must understand that many here are struggling against very real, how shall I say this limitations, be it in terms of academic issues, personal situations or straight-up discrimination or in my case, m-o-n-e-y. While I do not support the hostility (which thankfully resolved itself) shown to you, please understand that being non-traditional means bucking the current; that current is: young, brilliant, go-getting Grey’s Anatomy-types, all going to Harvard, UCSF, JH, etc. So it’s honestly like pouring salt in wound, dear.
But if you want to know my personal take on this whole age thing- it’s those of us peering at the horizon of 40 and those now beyond it are very self-possessed. They have life experiences that have only made them stronger (because otherwise they’d be dead) and they have true grit. In short, they are intelligent AND independent minded. And therein lies the problem. As a teacher, I liked teaching the younger ones (in my case the 6th graders)because they didn’t question my authority. They were wide-eyed and looking for someone to protect them in the big world of middle school. But then they grew up. And when I got them later as 8th, 9th and 10th graders- I couldn’t tell them the time!! That started to back off at 11th and 12th grade, but the analogy remains. As we age, we gain wisdom and strength and at a certain point we stop being ‘manageable’. I think AdCom’s don’t want 40-somethings because they don’t want someone who is equally educated (and in your case more so) as them secretly looking down on them. The school would rather have a whole bunch of apples on teachers’ desks, than independent-minded “collegues” as med students they have to herd. One post from Judy hinted at an AdCom’s view of med applicant ‘attitude’. We’re med STUDENTS, and we have to sit at the back of the bus, regardless of our accomplishments (which paradoxically got us in).
I learned this one when I went to a ComiCon (okay, yes I went and had a great time) but I was surrounded by people dressed like Klingons (and yes, I said hello to them in Klingonese- as if my Geek Coefficient wasn’t high enough already), Star Wars and other comic book characters I’d never heard of before and I realized how absolutely bizarre these people were when out on the street, but there it was NORMAL! So in short going to med school is like a ComiCon- “yes, you’re special just like everyone else, and now that you’re around people just as special as you are, no one’s special anymore.”
So the best advice is to…as an economics phid, take an accurate assay of your assets and liabilities and then go from there. Good luck sweetheart
If WHERE or WHAT school matters…and anyone who goes to ANY medical school can eventually become a doctor…then, my question is…are you going into medicine for the right reasons? Do you want to help people, or do you just want the prestige of another notch on your belt of accomplishments? Just a thought.
while discussing an LOR with my former professor who was on the adcom for 20 years at SUNY Stony Brook, he recalled that a 47 y/o retired female NYC police offer turned down an acceptance to Stony Brook as she was also accepted to Yale. Additionally, there was a 41 y/o guy who had was the third generation to run a family business of a small amusement park who also was accepted to Stony Brook and turned it down to go to Yale.
Also, slightly off subject, I recently had a lengthy conversation with a 30 y/o candidate who was accepted to several schools in New York, and trying to decide between NYU and Downstate. While Downstate is a “lesser” school, it has an outstanding reputation for residency placement. Yet, part of his decision was on prestige to choose NYU.
Ultimately you have to decide what your motivations are for going to school and be comfortable with that decision.
Who cares… Why don’t you be that success story? Just apply to the schools you want to go to and some schools you would not mind going to. I think that it is important that a person reach further than maybe they can or cannot succeed. If you fall short you will probably still end up in a good place. Let’s face it no one in this forum is going to fit the cookie cutter image of an ideal pre-med student. We are all mold breakers. I think that you should look at your scores, gpa and mcat. Then apply from there. Good luck.
