Not to say that this is the route I would like to follow but…is it worth it? I mean, are these degrees in demand in our current age?
I, for one would think it would be cool to have a little bit of legal knowledge to help from impending lawsuits.
There’s always a market for a JD with a strong scientific degree whether MD/DO or PhD.
MBA would help if it helps you setup your own practice. If more physicians thought like business owners versus employees there wouldn’t be this “fear” of “there’s no money in family practice…”… but that’s just me. 
I hold an MBA degree and used to work for a large hospital system where I interacted in finance capacity with hospital operations.
MBA degree can be very valuable if you plan to work for a large hospital/ system as an employee. Many heads of the departments and VPs at my hospital system were MDs, who divided their time between performing patient care tasks and running hospital departments (i.e. urology, surgery, etc.) So these individuals were responsible for profitability of their departments, expense management, capital and operating budgets, etc. and could greatly benefit from MBA. Also, hospital was willing to pay for MBA if they chose to go back to school.
Looking back at my MBA curriculum, many classes were irrelevant to small business as majority of group work, accounting, finance, management, marketing classes were truly geared towards best practices and approaches in large corporations. Majority of the students in my program were middle to upper management at fortune 500 companies who already had solid business background as such curriculum was geared towards accounting standards, supply chain management, leading large departments/ organizations, etc.
Completely trivial tidbit about an MD/JD who got to argue his own case personally in front the United States Supreme Court. I listen to the audio of his argument and the doctor but many lawyers to shame with his passionate argument. I think that is really cool
http://www.bc.edu/content/bc/centers/bo isi/publice…
“Michael Newdow is a lawyer, physician and First Amendment activist whose legal challenge to the words “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance reached the Supreme Court in 2004 (Elk Grove v. Newdow). Newdow personally argued the case before the Court, and although he lost 5-3 on standing grounds, his performance was called “spellbinding” by The New York Times, “virtuoso” by NPR, and the “Best Oral Argument” of the entire Supreme Court term by the Daily Journal. He practices emergency medicine in Sacramento, California, where he has also filed a legal challenge in federal court to the national motto “In God We Trust.” Newdow holds a B.A. from Brown University, an M.D. from the UCLA School of Medicine, and a J.D from the University of Michigan Law School.”
- Olivia Said:
I hold an MBA degree and used to work for a large hospital system where I interacted in finance capacity with hospital operations.
MBA degree can be very valuable if you plan to work for a large hospital/ system as an employee. Many heads of the departments and VPs at my hospital system were MDs, who divided their time between performing patient care tasks and running hospital departments (i.e. urology, surgery, etc.) So these individuals were responsible for profitability of their departments, expense management, capital and operating budgets, etc. and could greatly benefit from MBA. Also, hospital was willing to pay for MBA if they chose to go back to school.
Looking back at my MBA curriculum, many classes were irrelevant to small business as majority of group work, accounting, finance, management, marketing classes were truly geared towards best practices and approaches in large corporations. Majority of the students in my program were middle to upper management at fortune 500 companies who already had solid business background as such curriculum was geared towards accounting standards, supply chain management, leading large departments/ organizations, etc.
MBA degree can be very valuable if you plan to work for a large hospital/ system as an employee. Many heads of the departments and VPs at my hospital system were MDs, who divided their time between performing patient care tasks and running hospital departments (i.e. urology, surgery, etc.) So these individuals were responsible for profitability of their departments, expense management, capital and operating budgets, etc. and could greatly benefit from MBA. Also, hospital was willing to pay for MBA if they chose to go back to school.
Looking back at my MBA curriculum, many classes were irrelevant to small business as majority of group work, accounting, finance, management, marketing classes were truly geared towards best practices and approaches in large corporations. Majority of the students in my program were middle to upper management at fortune 500 companies who already had solid business background as such curriculum was geared towards accounting standards, supply chain management, leading large departments/ organizations, etc.
Makes sense. I always wondered why bother with the MBA for small business owners. Now I know.
- croooz Said:
There's always a market for a JD with a strong scientific degree whether MD/DO or PhD.
+1, especially with the feds.
I have a JD and wish that I would have done it joint with an MD.
Doing them one by one is a waste of time and money if you honestly want them both (trust me)
In theory it allows for patent bar too.
Most people don’t know that a JD alone can’t sit the patent bar, you need a science degree to sit it.
I believe most medical degrees meet the science requirments.
I must chime in because I just went on a rant w/ a family member about all these dual degree programs. My personal opinion, is great if you want to do it and hats off to you if you can find the ambition, time, money, etc to do a dual degree (or more). However, I must say in the pressure cooker environment we live in isn’t an MD (or JD, or MPH, or MBA, or PhD) alone enough anymore? I see the pressure to be all you can be, to take things to the limit, etc, but it seems like the bar is getting raised higher and higher and it will only lead to more dissatisfication and burn out in my opinion. I see so many articles daily on physician burnout that I am somewhat astounded at the amount of dual degree seekers and programs out there. (Unless this is a not so subtle way to have a “back up plan”) Must we do it all? I personally have zero desire to be a lawyer or an MBA or even an MPH, so forgive me here, because I’m perfectly fine with “just” seeking an MD.
What I fear is that our younger classmates and future generations are going to get jaded and just say the hell with it all. The competition gets too high, the pressure to be everything to everyone gets to be too much, and people give up. When I noticed that the new AMSA president who appears to be not a day older than 25 holds a JD, MD, and an MPH it made me feel, frankly, very small and insignificant and as if there is no way I will be able to hold my own (and keep my sanity and my personal priorities) in any environment that potentially expects any one person to be it all and do it all. I’m pretty ambitious, and I know all of us here are or we wouldn’t be here, but it is more ambitious than I would choose to be to seek a dual degree.
I’m also in the middle of finishing my prereqs, working on my Bio degree requirements, studying for the MCAT, and trying to hold myself (and my daughter) together through it all, so my perspective at the moment is clouded by a super busy schedule with little rest and not much but studying. So, I’m burning the candle at both ends right now and I’m still “just” a premed, so I cannot imagine how much harder it must be on anyone to seek out a dual degree. It’d be too much for me, but as I said, hats off to those who want to do it and can do it! You’re stronger than I!
I am concerned about the future, however, I really do see many of younger classmates dropping their medical school dreams because they feel they cannot possibly compete and get in when the stakes are so high. When you have to wear so many hats just to get accepted, and then go into major debt to get educated, get overworked and overtired, put starting a family on hold (a concern for younger students), and then burn out. More and more of my classmates are quitting the game. They don’t want to do it. Many are applying to PA programs or looking into a future in science in academia instead.
Plus, it is getting a little scary that in talking with some docs, it almost does appear that you need an MBA in the current healthcare environment. Which is sad on so many levels. I don’t think talented physicians should have to take on too many business or legal issues (unless it is of their choosing-for many it is not). Are we really in such a broken down system that no one can rely on others? That doctors have to be MBAs and JDs so they don’t get screwed by anyone?
I’m just throwing out thoughts here! I’m overtired at the moment and feeling the premed pressure cooker a lot right now. That being said, if any one of you OPMers is seriously considering a dual degree, go for it if it’s in your heart and for the right reasons! I’ll cheer you on all the way!
Thanks for bearing with my exhausted ramblings!
Dont hold back shannon, tell us how you really feel!
BTW, do I need one of our successful OPMers to write a script for valium
Hey, I needed a good rant! Lots of pent up frustration. I do feel much better, though! 
No, no need for Valium, but thanks for the offer. I must stay on top of my game right now.
As a person that already has multiple degrees who wants to pursue multiple more degrees, I have a couple responses to Shannon’s post.
- The definition of ambition is “in the eyes of the beholder”. For some folks, getting a 2 year degree meets that definition, for others, an MD/JD meets that goal. I think what’s key is to not judge which path is “better” since “better” is subjective.
- I DO feel that for clinical/medical research, an MD/PhD should be the entry level requirement for too many reasons to explain here.
- IMHO, the primarily reason Docs lost so much ground in healthcare is that too few of them understood the “business” side of medicine. Perhaps if more if them had pursued an MBA back in the 70’s with their MD’s, the landscape of medicine might be VERY different today. Ditto for what MD/JD’s could have done for tort reform on the front end.
- I also honestly feel that comparing the motivations of nontrads with trads is like comparing a sunny day to sewage. Younger folks tend to me motivated by what they think is impressive whereas nontrads with the wisdom that comes with age, realize that there’s MUCH more to life than trying to impress other people.
“new AMSA president who appears to be not a day older than 25 holds a JD, MD, and an MPH it made me feel, frankly, very small and insignificant and as if there is no way I will be able to hold my own and keep my sanity and my personal priorities) in any environment that potentially expects any one person to be it all and do it all.”
Perhaps it’s the stress you’re under with everything you have on your plate, but this statement is telling of a larger issue that underneath it all, has NOTHING to do with who’s pursuing joint degree programs.
If I were you, I’d chill out this weekend and get back on the saddle Monday morning! 
Hi,pathdr2b, I appreciate your thoughts very much. I did not intend, nor do I think I did, poo-poo dual degree seekers. I just wanted to put in more than my two cents on the issue of the pressures of medicine, premed, and the issues I’ve noticed facing the traditional students.
In another world, I would have potentially sought out an MD/PhD to be truthful, but at this point in the game it does not fit my personal goals or life needs. I certainly can see the MD/PhD relevance. This to me is a no brainer and I apologize if I made it seem I was unaware of the importance of MD/PhD for certain tracks.
You’re absolutely correct that ambition is in the eye of the beholder. Hats off to you for all you’ve done. And hats off to those who “only” seek a 2 year Associates, or are satisfied and plenty ambitious in a career built out of only a high school diploma, and hat off to those of us getting our 4 year degrees and seeking out professional school and beyond. We all make our choices that are unique to our life journey and I hope I made it clear that I personally was talking about myself and my feelings about dual degree programs. I think I made it known that I am supportive of anyone (trad or nontrad) on whatever educational path they take.
My issue is not necessarily with the dual degree programs or the dual degree seekers, but with the environment and culture as a whole. If I failed to express this without sounding as if I was criticizing those who personally decide to seek a dual degree for their own personal reasons, then, again I apologize.
You hit the nail on the head also, and I think I also made this more than perfectly clear, that my ranting was largely a result of feeling many pressures at the moment to be it all, to impress medical schools with my 4.0 and my general do-it-all-ness. I am a typical type-A, always doing, always going the extra mile, but I am always also advising others to slow down and not pressure themselves to be “perfect”, but I don’t take my own advice. At any rate, of course my post was a reflection on my personal feelings at the moment! I think that was obvious from the start. OPM should be, and is, a great forum for letting it all out, respectively, of course. I am human, and yes, facing the judgement of medical schools, even knowing that I have a impressive and strong application, is difficult for anyone at any age. It is putting yourself out there asking someone to find you acceptable and worthy. That can be tough. I think it’s awesome the AMSA president is a multiple degree holder, but yep, I did feel the way I did. It’s classic FUD. Haven’t we all been there? We do it all, we succeed, we overcome obstacles, but then there is an example of someone “better” right in front of our eyes, to “knock” us down a notch. It’s life. It’s human. It’s perfectly natural. Now, do I let it bring me down every second of every day? Certainly not or I would not be here! So, of course, that statement was very telling, and I think I made it clear that I was speaking from the perspective of someone on the last leg of the premed journey, facing the moment of ultimate judgement on my path. Again, it’s a human response.
As for comparing nontrad with trad, my point was that despite the fact that I am sometimes all too aware of the needs of the nontrad premed/degree seeker, the truth is that we are still outnumbered by trads and their needs and concerns should be ours as well. These are or will be our colleagues and these will be the people who will be shaping the future of medicine. How they feel now is super important, in my opinion. As I keep talking to younger classmates and hear their concerns, I wonder how much worse the doctor shortage may be as my daughter enters adulthood, as I become elderly, and beyond. Their concerns are very real. I also think your point about younger people wanting only to impress others is actually not in line what I have found and what I expressed in my post about their concerns. It seems quite contrary to what I see in my classmates who are actually less concerned with impressing others, but more concerned with the type of life they want to create for themselves. I also feel that we should avoid stereotyping younger people They are as multi-faceted as we older students. Not everyone of them is looking to impress others and not everyone of them is just after their own concerns, either. I just think it would be very misguided to push their concerns aside.
At any rate, what I love about OPM is the ability to express our thoughts and feelings and know we won’t be judged for it. I feel very comfortable, saying at a vulnerable moment, that I feel the pressure, that I’m feeling human, that I’m feeling the FUD. I know no one here is expecting me to be superhuman. The premed and med world can sometimes make it seem that we must be superhuman. My post about dual degree programs was speaking mostly to that and not to the personal choices made by those who do seek out multiple degrees. I do still think though, that it should not be a necessity for MD’s to have a JD or an MBA just to do well. I do think that is a sad state of affairs. However, it perhaps should be telling to medical schools and residency programs. They should, if they have not, incorporate a few electives into their programs to deal with business and legal issues in medicine. Of course, where would these be squeezed in in already full curricula? I digress…
Thanks again for the comments, pathdr2b. I appreciate them even if I do not 100% agree. I also apologize if I wasn’t clear enough that my comments were very much the product of my current situation. I think I made it known enough and tried my best to make it clear that I am suportive of the personal paths of others, but just wanted to give my thoughts from my side because that is what this forum is about: Diversity of lives and opinions and paths.
Off to school!
Cheers.
- pathdr2b Said:
Audio Visual added for those whose learning style may differ... Whoa there!!
- pathdr2b Said:
"new AMSA president who appears to be not a day older than 25 holds a JD, MD, and an MPH it made me feel, frankly, very small and insignificant and as if there is no way I will be able to hold my own and keep my sanity and my personal priorities) in any environment that potentially expects any one person to be it all and do it all."
Perhaps it's the stress you're under with everything you have on your plate, but this statement is telling of a larger issue that underneath it all, has NOTHING to do with who's pursuing joint degree programs.
If I were you, I'd chill out this weekend and get back on the saddle Monday morning!
Perhaps it's the stress you're under with everything you have on your plate, but this statement is telling of a larger issue that underneath it all, has NOTHING to do with who's pursuing joint degree programs.
If I were you, I'd chill out this weekend and get back on the saddle Monday morning!
But it does make one look back at our lives and sometimes see how little we have accomplished. It is a sobering though for example that when Mozart had been my age, he had been dead for 16 years!
Rule One: Take a Breath you overly serious, highly neurotic premeds (isnt that redundant). This was meant at humorous irony. And now back to your regularly scheduled forum already in progress
Like the video! Very cute way to bring us all back to center with a little laugh!
I’m taking a breath and leaving for school, but I hate it when someone tells me to chill out. I find it dismisses my feelings 
But, I’m a big girl! I can take it!!! Not really a big deal. Though, yeah, neurotic premed I am and yes, I know sometimes I do need to chill out.
TGIF!
Shanport, I shouldn’t have made my response appear to be a direct response to your post because as you stated, there’s nothing wrong with you feeling the way you do. And while I appreciate it, an apology on your part wasn’t necessary but is required on my part because I wrongly put you on the defensive. I should have just posted those comments in a more general way so that the ultimate meaning of what I was trying to say could be understood in the proper context.
As for dismissing the concerns of trads, I’ve been VERY vocal that I feel that there should be a minimum age before a person can matriculate in med school, and right out of undergrad just ain’t it. In fact, I think age 27 would be a GREAT start for a number of reasons based on my observatiions and experiences:
- Students for whom being a Doc was their first job don’t seem as good (bedside manner, decision making, ect) as those for whom that’s not the case.
- Nontrads make the best Docs especially when it comes to bedside manner because they’ve often had numerous other life experiences including many of those encountered by Docs, like having to deal with life and death issues.
- Nontrads seem generally more satisfied in their careers as Docs.
- Nontrads seems to make fewer medical errors, especially those who are parents. Parents tend to have that “gut instinct” thing that comes with being well, a parent!
- Nontrads come to the medical establishment with far better negotiating skills because of time spent in other careers where such skills are required. And in the era of managed care, we need folks who can negotiate!
I could go on and on, but I think my point is made. Now obviously, I don’t have any statistical evidence to support what I’m saying, but to me many of my points are plain ol’ common sense.
There’s a reason a person has to be at least 35 to run for president, the presidency is a VERY important job that requires “seasoned” professionals.
IMHO, medicine is a similar career that ONLY seasoned professionals should be allowed to enter.
And in my final diss to traditional students, this genration of people going to med school is IMHO, the most entitled I’ve EVER seen! Entitlement is for medicine what potassium chloride is for one’s heartrate, it’s just a matter of time before the field is killed dead by it!
Put another way, EVERY premed should be a Nontrad!
Soapbox dismounted!
- gonnif Said:
But it does make one look back at our lives and sometimes see how little we have accomplished. It is a sobering though for example that when Mozart had been my age, he had been dead for 16 years!
Is this really how some nontrads feel? I think that is amazingly sad!
"Accomplishment" is on the eye of the beholder. For me, completing this next set of educational 35+ year long goals, is an addendum to an already really cool life full of what I deem are "accomplishments". And honestly, I think most notrads feel the same!
- pathdr2b Said:
- gonnif Said:
But it does make one look back at our lives and sometimes see how little we have accomplished. It is a sobering though for example that when Mozart had been my age, he had been dead for 16 years!
Is this really how some nontrads feel? I think that is amazingly sad!
"Accomplishment" is on the eye of the beholder. For me, completing this next set of educational 35+ year long goals, is an addendum to an already really cool life full of what I deem are "accomplishments". And honestly, I think most notrads feel the same!
hence why it was followed with
This was meant at humorous irony
you should never to take me too seriously